How could we get you to try

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

PVP doesn't match the PVE experience. So people hate it. It really is that simple.

poppycock..

 

..but I do agree that PVE being different from PVP definitely doesn't help.

[macskull]

36 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is this an attempt to bully someone to try and suppress their posting or were you appointed the forum police?

No, just pointing something out.

[Croax]

I was yesterday in RV on Indomitable. There was one guy only and we started chating. He wanted to test his build and would ask me to try to kill him. We hit each other for a while and chated. Then two others would join and we started complimenting each other for the big damage spikes. I have to admit it was weird to be called bro and fam so much.

 

A while ago on Reunion i did attack 4 people and would kill them a lot. They did not react friendly or just asked if they could complete a badge. They just started insulting me, so i killed them some more.

 

Toxicity is not monopolized by PvP Players. I really like helping other Players with builds, tipps, PL, inf or whatever. But i expect a little bit of friendlyness. The arena PvP community has been very friendly. I wish the time of day when people play arena would not differ so much to my gaming schedule.

[CaptainLupis]

4 hours ago, Xanatos said:

All this "police your own" stuff is nonsense. Trash talkers are in every game and are not the reason PVP is unpopular in CoH. Stop being so solipsistic to assume that your own bad experiences/judgements are somehow universal.

 

The reason PVP is unpopular in this game has nothing to do with how toxic/nontoxic people are. It is for two main reasons:

• CoH PVE is insanely easy/casual/uncompetative. CoH PVP is the opposite of this
• PVE builds play differently in PVP

PVP doesn't match the PVE experience. So people hate it. It really is that simple.

That is certainly one of the things that puts me off. When you are used to things working in a certain way and then suddenly they don't it can cause confusion and, even if that is only momentary, that can often be enough to get you killed in PvP. It isn't conducive to people dabbling in PvP every now and then, if they fancy having a go for a laugh.

[Turric]

Having played many games with PVP as their focus, my response would be to look at Dark Age of Camelot and utilize what works in that game to the best of this game's ability. DAOC had amazing PVP (RVR) and PVE existed to complement it. I do not think that everything is possible but CoH has all the basic elements to use.

[Neiska]

@RageusQuitus - to the OP, I think the discussion has gotten a bit off topic. People cant seem to agree on PvP in general, or why some people aren't interested in it.

 

But there are likely players out there willing to give PvP a try, you just have to find and get your message to them. That said however, please understand that there are players out there that want no part of PvP as it is in its current form. 

 

As far as me personally? Well, there really is nothing you can do yourself that would make me interested in PvP in CoH. If they added tools or any sort of controls/system to it along with a league or ranking system, I might be tempted. What would be important to me would be that it would be by choice. It would have to be so that I willfully entered PvP at a time of my choosing, and that it wasnt thrusted or forced upon me. (I hasten to add that I am not saying that it currently is. I am not on a pvp server, and I don't enter pvp areas.) But in no way will I ever be interested in "open world" PVP where people can and do gank and harrass other players, which would inhibit my own enjoyment of the game. If the entire game was like that, I would uninstall and move onto something else entirely.

 

I don't "gank" people. I would get zero enjoyment out of attacking a person lower level than me. It would'nt be challenging, or even fun. I could slay this player with a single attack and there wasnt anything they could do about it, and it would not take any measure of skill. Nor would I have any interest in suddenly fighting a player while on a mission and so on. I would find getting ganked by an entire team of people even less enjoyable. I might be interested in an arena or dueling scenerio, where pvp was expected and agreed upon. But I personally take a pretty dim view of the open world ganking style of PVP. They had it in another game I wont mention. I did not enjoy it in the slightest. And in such an enviroment where players could attack each other without controls, well, I never once had a PVP fight that "fair" or "equal". It likely didn't even come down to skill. Any player of the opposite faction that I came across, we didnt "duke it out". We mostly ignored each other, sometimes even helping one another in some cases. Most players in the area were just trying to quest, and along would come this ??? level player, swooping down out of the sky to one shot you and dance on your corpse. And this might persist. For hours. And no amount of "git gud" could prevent that, and there were no tools to make it stop aside from the "log out" button. I don't know what sort of person it takes to find that fun, or enjoyable, or would even pay money to be in such a situation.  

 

The biggest thing stopping me from being interested, is the possibility of griefers and gankers. I am not willing to be in such a position, and will not allow myself to be put into such a position. And to my limited knowledge, there are no tools available for such a situation. My only options would be to use the teleport to base macro, and then put them on ignore if things got heated and I didnt wish to communicate with them, and simply try to finish the task I was doing at another time. And thats not really an option at all. Heck, I am not even sure if the teleport macro works in PvP zones. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if it didn't.

 

TLDR - To your orginal question, "what would make me personally interested to try it?" It really depends on the kind of PVP you mean. If you mean an arena? Mabye, if there are tools and controls. Open world PVP? That would be a hard, HARD "No thank you" from me. To me, thats not PVP, or even dueling. Thats ganking/griefing/trolling. 

[Xanatos]

@DrBasics, @Dragotect, @Troo and everyone else who disagreed with my above post. (It's hard to tell. What with so many of you agreeing with me whilst also saying you disagree), a challenge:

1. Outline how griefers/toxic players in CoH differ from griefers/toxic players in other PVP games.
2. Outline how this difference is significant enough to be the main reason PVP is unpopular in CoH.

Thanks.

[barrier]

am

10 hours ago, Dragotect said:

Honestly, it really boils down to the toxic, meta subgroup being much more blatantly apparent in the style. You can ignore them in PvE for the most part, but in PvP they badge camp, gank you, then dance on your corpse and belittle you in broadcast.

 

Until that changes, which the GMs and devs have no control over, I don't think you're going to change the mind of the majority of non-pvpers.

 

In this game alone I had a stalker instant kill me at a badge, proceed to engage/defeat me at every subsequent badge, then call me a "Skittle popper" when I got sick of it and popped half a tray of purple/orange just to deny him one more kill on the way out of the zone. I vowed to never enter a PvP zone ever again after that.

 

I'd be most likely to play arena... With friends or SG mates only.

Meh. Turn off broadcast if it bothers you. 

 

As a somewhat reformed troll, i can only give you this little piece of advice: there is nothing more enraging to most trash talking zone pvpers than a person that stays quiet and repeatedly kills them.

 

That is what I generally do and it's almost as enjoyable as 8v8 structured pvp as long as I am on a build that isn't plain bad (some of us spent almost a year exploring the pvp meta and have dozens of terrible toons that just wont even cut in zone - lulzsonicandFF corrs).

 

My problem with these "they hurt my feelings" stories is that they are always drafted from the point of view of a person with an obvious victim complex. There is nothing out there preventing you from getting back at that stalker. This game isn't that hard and you can literally have PVP builds served to you by an automated bot on the PVP discord if you actually want to understand how PVP works.

 

This isn't about broadcast chat bothering you. This is about people who arent really into competitive play rationalizing their feelings and giving too much power to text on a screen.

Edited September 17, 2020 by barrier

[Twisted Toon]

7 hours ago, Croax said:

I was yesterday in RV on Indomitable. There was one guy only and we started chating. He wanted to test his build and would ask me to try to kill him. We hit each other for a while and chated. Then two others would join and we started complimenting each other for the big damage spikes. I have to admit it was weird to be called bro and fam so much.

 

A while ago on Reunion i did attack 4 people and would kill them a lot. They did not react friendly or just asked if they could complete a badge. They just started insulting me, so i killed them some more.

 

Toxicity is not monopolized by PvP Players. I really like helping other Players with builds, tipps, PL, inf or whatever. But i expect a little bit of friendlyness. The arena PvP community has been very friendly. I wish the time of day when people play arena would not differ so much to my gaming schedule.

I will agree that player toxicity isn't relegated to just PvP players.

I have come across several players I would consider toxic in PvE.

 

I will say this though, spontaneously punching someone in the face repeatedly isn't likely to garner you a friendly reaction.

So, why would you expect a friendly response to repeatedly attacking and defeating people that were, probably, not interested in PvP?

3 hours ago, Xanatos said:

@DrBasics, @Dragotect, @Troo and everyone else who disagreed with my above post. (It's hard to tell. What with so many of you agreeing with me whilst also saying you disagree), a challenge:

1. Outline how griefers/toxic players in CoH differ from griefers/toxic players in other PVP games.
2. Outline how this difference is significant enough to be the main reason PVP is unpopular in CoH.

Thanks.

In my experience, there is no difference between griefers/toxic players in CoH and griefers/toxic players in other games.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, barrier said:

My problem with these "they hurt my feelings" stories is that they are always drafted from the point of view of a person with an obvious victim complex.

As someone who is on your side in this argument but who also has numerous negative childhood memories from live, I’d like to just gently suggest you could frame this more considerately.

[Ghost]

What I find amazing with this thread, is that the OP asked what it would take to get involved with PvP - some people have explained why they dont like it, and have been told they are wrong by others ?!?

How could they be wrong ?

If they dont like something, they dont like it.  You are not going to change their mind by telling them they dont know what they are talking about.

 

 

me, I dont play PvP because I dont like it.

I wont try PvP because I dont like it.

Simple.  

Edited September 17, 2020 by Ghost

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Xanatos said:

@DrBasics, @Dragotect, @Troo and everyone else who disagreed with my above post. (It's hard to tell. What with so many of you agreeing with me whilst also saying you disagree), a challenge:

1. Outline how griefers/toxic players in CoH differ from griefers/toxic players in other PVP games.
2. Outline how this difference is significant enough to be the main reason PVP is unpopular in CoH.

Thanks.

1) They're NOT different. That's the point. The mistake you make is thinking we play ANY PvP based games.

 

2) The mistake you make here is presuming that PvP is popular in ANY MMO-based game when all evidence I've every seen is that its NOT popular on any of them; its just required by some of them.

 

Ex. Back before the un-Snap when I was playing SWTOR, I remember the devs saying that less than 5% of the player population ever engaged in PvP regardless of all the tweaking they did.

 

The largest WoW PvP population on any server per their stats had 1400 PvPers... the next largest 600.  The largest server populations are in the 25,000 range... so again, about  5% of the total population.

 

* * * * *

 

Now, translate that to a population of a few thousand like here and you get 50-100 people who engage in PvP in CoH across all the servers.

 

The PROBLEM with PvP isn't specific to CoH... its specific to PvP.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Chris24601

[barrier]

42 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

As someone who is on your side in this argument but who also has numerous negative childhood memories from live, I’d like to just gently suggest you could frame this more considerately.

But is that truly my job? The notion that hand holding should be the default posture in an MMO is problematic. I am happy to lend concrete help as are most of the PVP guys that I know, but counseling you on your negative childhood memories is probably left best to family, friends and mental health professionals.

 

I can understand gaming as an escapist pursuit but if an aversion to anti-escapist play (sports-like in manner) is what drives the "I will never PVP" position and that is what drives posting stuff to that regard which then turns off others from PVP,  then that is probably confirmation that one may actually need some real life counseling.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Ghost said:

What I find amazing with this thread, is that the OP asked what it would take to get involved with PvP - some people have explained why they dont like it, and have been told they are wrong by others ?!?

How could they be wrong ?

If they dont like something, they dont like it.  You are not going to change their mind by telling them they dont know what they are talking about.

 

 

me, I dont play PvP because I dont like it.

I wont try PvP because I dont like it.

Simple.  

Well said.

[ShardWarrior]

13 hours ago, Xanatos said:

The reason PVP is unpopular in this game has nothing to do with how toxic/nontoxic people are. It is for two main reasons:

I think this is a very, very naive point of view.  There are quite a lot of people I know now and have known over the years who would like to have tried out PvP in CoH but unfortunately were put off by the toxicity of a few very bad actors.   Of course that plays a part in why some people will not try it.  I would agree it is not the sole reason, but definitely a big reason regardless.

Edited September 17, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[barrier]

17 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I think this is a very, very naive point of view.  There are quite a lot of people I know now and have known over the years who would like to have tried out PvP in CoH but unfortunately were put off by the toxicity of a few very bad actors.   Of course that plays a part in why some people will not try it.  I would agree it is not the sole reason, but definitely a big reason regardless.

Do these people actively PVP in any other game? Serious question.

[Chris24601]

To expand on my previous point about PvP being generally unpopular across ALL MMO's (i.e. fewer than 5% seem to willingly engage with it) is that part of this is that ANY level/gear-based game is generally horrible for PvP.

 

When you look at the popular PvP platforms they consistently involve player-controlled avatars of roughly equal ability (some systems have options with strengths/weaknesses, i.e. fragile speedster/mighty glacier/jack of all stats) and, if there are power-ups they are things gained inside the PvP environment via the skill of the player.

 

This is PvP as sport where your actual skill matters and that IS immensely popular as a genre.

 

MMO PvP is who can get to max level and put together the best PvP-gear ... then going after people who are not so equipped as the tab-based RNG combat system does the work. There's no skill at all beyond your ability to grind content to get the best gear to let you dominate others.

 

THAT'S why its never been popular in any traditional (i.e. level/gear-based progression with tab-targeting RNG combat) MMO.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, barrier said:

Do these people actively PVP in any other game? Serious question.

I know I’m not necessarily “these people” because I actually do PvP some (just refuse to do the discord version most of the time). But yes I find PvP far more accessible in social terms in every other MMO I’ve played even if I like the *engine* for this one the best.

[arcane]

31 minutes ago, barrier said:

But is that truly my job? The notion that hand holding should be the default posture in an MMO is problematic. I am happy to lend concrete help as are most of the PVP guys that I know, but counseling you on your negative childhood memories is probably left best to family, friends and mental health professionals.

 

I can understand gaming as an escapist pursuit but if an aversion to anti-escapist play (sports-like in manner) is what drives the "I will never PVP" position and that is what drives posting stuff to that regard which then turns off others from PVP,  then that is probably confirmation that one may actually need some real life counseling.

Not your job, no. Just asking you to imagine that maybe it’s not *entirely* the “victim” who’s to blame across the board.

I don’t care much any more about the shit talking because I’m now better at just ignoring it. Though a community that typically acts like using one central voice chat server is all but mandatory just means I’m locked out of certain PvP if I want to continue to ignore it. Which is oh well.

[Xanatos]

43 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

1) They're NOT different. That's the point. The mistake you make is thinking we play ANY PvP based games.

 

2) The mistake you make here is presuming that PvP is popular in ANY MMO-based game when all evidence I've every seen is that its NOT popular on any of them; its just required by some of them.

 

Ex. Back before the un-Snap when I was playing SWTOR, I remember the devs saying that less than 5% of the player population ever engaged in PvP regardless of all the tweaking they did.

 

The largest WoW PvP population on any server per their stats had 1400 PvPers... the next largest 600.  The largest server populations are in the 25,000 range... so again, about  5% of the total population.

 

* * * * *

 

Now, translate that to a population of a few thousand like here and you get 50-100 people who engage in PvP in CoH across all the servers.

 

The PROBLEM with PvP isn't specific to CoH... its specific to PvP.

 

Oh right. I genuinely thought other MMORPGs such as WoW, SWTOR, AOC, etc, had healthier PVP populations.

 

Homecoming's PVP population is around ~4%. So the answer to "how can you grow it" is...you can't. It's operating at its potential already.

How disappointing.

 

Makes sense, though. Competitive people aren't drawn to MMORPGs. They tend to go to MOBAs/FPS/fighting games.

[barrier]

26 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

To expand on my previous point about PvP being generally unpopular across ALL MMO's (i.e. fewer than 5% seem to willingly engage with it) is that part of this is that ANY level/gear-based game is generally horrible for PvP.

 

When you look at the popular PvP platforms they consistently involve player-controlled avatars of roughly equal ability (some systems have options with strengths/weaknesses, i.e. fragile speedster/mighty glacier/jack of all stats) and, if there are power-ups they are things gained inside the PvP environment via the skill of the player.

 

This is PvP as sport where your actual skill matters and that IS immensely popular as a genre.

 

MMO PvP is who can get to max level and put together the best PvP-gear ... then going after people who are not so equipped as the tab-based RNG combat system does the work. There's no skill at all beyond your ability to grind content to get the best gear to let you dominate others.

 

THAT'S why its never been popular in any traditional (i.e. level/gear-based progression with tab-targeting RNG combat) MMO.

This feels poorly researched.

 

Guild Wars 2 counters your point re: character progression + gear + PVP. I've never done a dungeon or trial or whatever the hell they call those there. If you tabbed up my PVE play, it wouldn't hit double digits and I played that game for like 2 years.

The fact that we effectively have free 50's in this game also counters your point re: progression here.

 

The fact that I have never seen a newbie be even remotely proper at playing in an 8v8 is also counter to your "lack of skill" comment. Just because you can't see what's happening doesn't mean someone who knows the game can't. That is corollary of every single video game in existence.

 

The notion of equal avatar ability is also a joke. I have yet to see a fighting game or a particular MMO where roles are of equal value, especially when you take into consideration situational picks. I dread going against Kano on Noob Saibot because a properly played Kano can counter my two "playstyles" when playing Noob Saibot, but I'd never play Kano against Scorpion or any other general area denial character. Same sort of thing applies to old school condi mesmers vs. any meele in the 2018 condi meta for GW2 (post-Warrior nerf). In every game, there is an element of rock paper scissors. The notion that COH is unique in this aspect is extremely naive.

 

Proper PVP game design actually requires that all avatars be somewhat unbalanced. That often leaves particular players unable to play what they are naturally attracted to, but that is just the cost of competitive play. Another quick example: I think melee-heavy characters in Overwatch look really cool, but my FPS reflexes aren't as good as I wish they were so I relegate myself to characters that reward really good awareness of a particular map - so like Bastion, Reaper or Symmetra - roughly equal ability is an cute fantasy when players have to make these choices (otherwise choices would be irrelevant). That is fine and even desirable in a PVP game.

Edited September 17, 2020 by barrier

[Nanolathe]

Revert the changes that made PVP and PVE into totally separate systems.

[barrier]

Just now, Nanolathe said:

Revert the changes that made PVP and PVE into totally separate systems.

That would be problematic. A typical fire blaster + strangler spike in an 8v8 right now comes with 9 mag of holds attached to it before any defender/corr locks on a target.  That could easily be doubled through procs.

 

Imagine mag 24 holds on every spike. You'd need to be constantly running 3 break frees or have 2-3 CM's on you to prevent you from getting held on every single spike.

[Bill Z Bubba]

57 minutes ago, barrier said:

But is that truly my job? The notion that hand holding should be the default posture in an MMO is problematic. I am happy to lend concrete help as are most of the PVP guys that I know, but counseling you on your negative childhood memories is probably left best to family, friends and mental health professionals.

 

I can understand gaming as an escapist pursuit but if an aversion to anti-escapist play (sports-like in manner) is what drives the "I will never PVP" position and that is what drives posting stuff to that regard which then turns off others from PVP,  then that is probably confirmation that one may actually need some real life counseling.

Wait... what? I need RL counseling because I see no benefit from engaging in online PvP? Seriously?

 

Might wanna check that projector.

[barrier]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wait... what? I need RL counseling because I see no benefit from engaging in online PvP? Seriously?

 

Might wanna check that projector.

oh the absurdity of that first line. again: videogame.