Game Balance & The Endgame

[Neiska]

Just now, Captain Yesterday said:

That agreement was made "in good faith" in hopes that the game would improve for everyone, and not be nerfed and ruined for those who have invested, while being TOLD that you having LESS fun is somehow an improvement over previous conditions.

 

And  more so, because you can't play the game unless you click the box.

 

Since you are stuck on "agreements", you do understand, that they could just get it over with and stop slow dripping the bad and just nerf it all tomorrow?

 

make everyone do 1 point  of damage per attack, and each attack cost 125% end.

 

You still agreed to that. Why you complaining?

 

But then what would they do to spread covert misery? people would just log off.

 

i do not give permission to use this post to harm me in any way.

You weren't tricked, forced, or coerced into accepting. That's precisely what a User Agreement is. Its the game host saying "we can and will change this at any time. and by you clicking this, you agree and acknowledge it." And I suspect nearly every online game has patches, updates, tweaks, and more. They aren't picking you out personally to nerf what you enjoy most. Because, logically by your argument, if someone else goes "hey this is fantastic I LOVE this change", well, that just nullified your entire case? 

 

It's fine to dislike a change. But your personal take on matters is hardly the only qualifier here. 

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

While I agree with you in this instance, because there's nothing I would fear more than the general playerbase having a say in how Kheldians are balanced in a hypothetical future update, it's important to consider the playerbase at least in some degree when it comes to future design direction.

 

See: the downfall of WoW since MoP ended.

Oh no doubt. The feedback and suggestions forum the most important one for me.

[skoryy]

3 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

The windup mechanics and the overall slow animations are why I don't play Titan Weapons.

Yeah, I've had enough windups and a whiff to keep away from TW for now.  I'm good with nerfing TW's damage if the changes make the Momentum mechanic less trying in practice.

Edited September 21, 2020 by skoryy

[summers]

The thing that stops me from trying Titan Weapons is the lack of weapon models that I like. If it had a semi-reasonable sword or polearm or something a little less outrageous and I'd be there!

[JayboH]

As far as AT overhauls go, I think a good number of people will easily put Masterminds and Sentinels at the top of the list, at least above controllers, dominators, and kheldians.  Dominators may just need number tweaks after the previous overhaul if they are still underperforming though so it might be low hanging fruit if they track play results.

 

Poison, Traps, and Force Fields need looking at also.  Sonic Resonance could use some love, as well as Sonic Attack and maybe some slight changes to Assault Rifle.

 

Porting sets via (hopefully) smaller overhauls are still there like Super Strength, Stone Armor, Energy Armor, Stone Melee, etc.

Edited September 21, 2020 by JayboH

[Captain Yesterday]

19 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Game designers don't a good player make, and players certainly don't make good game designers on that merit alone.

I appreciate your points. But I AM a game designer. Published and successful kickstarters too. I guess that is why I have so much to say.

I'm digging into the meta.

 

I think the main players of any AT should have a say in the outcome when the Nerfbat (ahem, "changes") comes around for their favorite AT. Those are the people who will care.

Everyone it doesn't effect will either not care 30% or 70% say some doofy "I embrace the any changes" crap.

The professional forum lurkers and yesmen I don't even think play the game, they are on here so much. What are they, alt-tabbing between missions?

 

And no - I'm not even hinting who I am IRL, its a small brand with some success.

 

I do not give permission to use this post to harm me in any way.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Captain Yesterday

[Neiska]

@Captain Yesterday- So, you're a game designer, who doesn't know what a user agreement is? And opposes its use?

[FoulVileTerror]

Not suggesting you personally aren't skilled at game design, @Captain Yesterday, but success with one type of game design doesn't necessarily make someone an ideal candidate for applied design skills in an entirely different class of game.

 

Which applies to the Homecoming Devs just as much as anyone, to put perhaps too-fine a point on it.  I get that we've got industry professionals on the Team . . . but that doesn't inherently mean they're the right -kind- of professionals for a game quite like this one.

But, overwhelmingly, the players who are still on Homecoming are certainly supporting the belief that those Devs are, in fact, the right people.   At least for the game which those players are here for.

 

We're a diverse community.  I just hope (really, really hope) that the Dev Team is just as diverse.

[Captain Yesterday]

1 minute ago, Neiska said:

@Captain Yesterday- So, you're a game designer, who doesn't know what a user agreement is? And opposes its use?

I am a game designer, who understands user agreements, but UNFORTUNATELY expected more flexiblilty - from a stolen game.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Captain Yesterday

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, JayboH said:

As far as AT overhauls go, I think a good number of people will easily put Masterminds and Sentinels at the top of the list, at least above controllers, dominators, and kheldians.

Sentinel needs a grand overhaul of some sort, Kheldians need some small tuning adjustments on certain powers and some QoL (front loaded mire, faster cast times on say, incan strike and others, beefier pets, more damage in essence drain) and controllers I think just need to hit harder and/or have a more reliable inherent while being careful that it doesn't overshadow domination.

 

Masterminds are kinda -fine- in how the mechanics work, at least now they are - but the problem lies in how the original sets function. They're all in need of rework, especially mercs. It'd be cool if the attacks became useful, as well.

 

I'd love to see necromancy get more minions from raising defeated opponents, It'd make it my favorite set.

[Number Six]

41 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Some powers are buffed, but some powers are nerfed.

Some powers are nerfed AND buffed.

 

TW is a great example of that. The overall damage output has some of the "you paid real money for this set" damage bonus removed (I can't help but imagine a weapon enhancement that is someone taping dollar bills to a big sword). However, there's also a mechanics change to Momentum that is a fairly big deal QoL-wise and hopefully will make the set less frustrating to play.

[Neiska]

Just now, Captain Yesterday said:

I am a game designer, who understands user agreements, but UNFORTUNATELY expected more flexiblilty - from a stolen game.

1. ...Wow. Stolen? You are aware Homecoming is in discussions with the host company, right? 

2. Id say they are the ones being flexible, and its you who isn't?

 

@JayboH -

-I would submit SoA for consideration to be put top of the list too please. (hugs crabberpack).

[Captain Yesterday]

7 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Not suggesting you personally aren't skilled at game design, @Captain Yesterday, but success with one type of game design doesn't necessarily make someone an ideal candidate for applied design skills in an entirely different class of game.

 

Which applies to the Homecoming Devs just as much as anyone, to put perhaps too-fine a point on it.  I get that we've got industry professionals on the Team . . . but that doesn't inherently mean they're the right -kind- of professionals for a game quite like this one.

But, overwhelmingly, the players who are still on Homecoming are certainly supporting the belief that those Devs are, in fact, the right people.   At least for the game which those players are here for.

 

We're a diverse community.  I just hope (really, really hope) that the Dev Team is just as diverse

I'm hoping they're great too, it just seems a casual play might have to log on to these god-forsaken forums every once in a while and brave the troll hate to check in on their next move.  So far as a casual player its been

1. Great opening

2. One step back

3. 1/2 step forward

4. Immense forum praise for sucking air and making use of the internet. HOW DARE YOU SIR!

 

7 hours ago, Neiska said:

1. ...Wow. Stolen? You are aware Homecoming is in discussions with the host company, right? 

Ill try not to fall into this trap but.

Negotiations to receive something, or negotiations to keep something already in possesion?

 

7 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Sentinel needs a grand overhaul of some sort, Kheldians need some small tuning adjustments on certain powers and some QoL (front loaded mire, faster cast times on say, incan strike and others, beefier pets, more damage in essence drain) and controllers I think just need to hit harder and/or have a more reliable inherent while being careful that it doesn't overshadow domination.

See, this is the stuff that needs to be in the "coming up in out next update" forum.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Captain Yesterday

[Troo]

Excited to see the game move forward.

8 hours ago, The Curator said:

However in order to be able to do that and for it actually work for everyone across the board, we need to clear up some of the existing balance issues in the game - both with specific powersets, whole ATs, and in more general areas.

Seeing the word 'Balance' used obviously will draw some concern.

 

Hopefully we are not trading pre level 50 variety and flavor for post level 50 benefit. That simply would not be cool.

 

8 hours ago, The Curator said:

Currently there’s a large amount of homogenization at the endgame

Homogeneous.. interesting.

 

Pointing at part of the game while 'balancing' much of the rest.

[FoulVileTerror]

We've been largely on the same page with a lot of the discussions here, @Neiska, but even the Homecoming Team have admitted to the sticky legal situation surrounding this whole venture.  Negotiations alone don't make that situation any less sticky.

"Stolen" is definitely a word which could be used for it, up to and including in the court of law.

[Neiska]

Just now, Captain Yesterday said:

Ill try not to fall into this trap but.

Negotiations to receive something, or negotiations to keep something already in possesion?

-Negotiations to become legitimized, according to rumor. I don't follow the latest news in that arena, but last I heard it was a thing. As far as "Stolen" goes, well, the code went public IIRC a bit over a year ago? Not 100% sure on the details that one either, but what I think happened is someone (no idea who) published the code for the game online, and from that sprung homecoming. (Might be 100% wrong here! So if someone knows the skinny feel free post a link or explanation)

[FoulVileTerror]

It's a lot of reading, @Neiska, but look at the articles related to City of Heroes starting around April of 2019:

https://massivelyop.com/tag/city-of-heroes/

[Machariel]

My unsolicited thoughts on Titan Weapons btw are that while the set is clearly an overperformer by the numbers, and while it is very popular, I actually think it's in a good place and I don't feel like I see much of it in the wild.  Obviously that's an anecdote and not indicative of anything, but to fortify my ego I will present this completely unjustified observation as the

 

✨Fermi's Paradox of Titan Weapons✨

(aka "if TW is so strong and so popular why don't I see more of it it?")

 

Anyway in my opinion it is only a real overperformer at endgame, because TW has a number of drawbacks that are overcome at level 50 and especially at level 50 with IOs (aka, endgame).

 

The Momentum mechanic means that when you (for this post, the 'general' you) miss an attack with TW you lose more than you do on other sets.  By this I mean that katana hitting 50% of the time is doing 50% as much damage as katana hitting 100% of the time, whereas Titan Weapons hitting 50% of the time is doing less than 50% of TW hitting 100% of the time, because TW is either wasting time in momentum or, even worse, failing to build it and having to use another slow attack.  This gets even worse when you don't have powers on cooldown to use, because you simply don't have enough powers yet (aka at low level) or because the powers take too long to recharge (ditto).  Also, getting hit with -tohit or Slow effects makes this worse. 

 

Now when you eventually get sufficient defenses to dodge most debuffs and enough +acc to power through tohit, and enough recharge to not only ignore slows but also pare your attack chain down to your best powers, then the streakbreaker will generally keep you humming along and then you start setting records. 

 

Titan Weapons also has a couple anti-quality-of-life features like its endurance use (fixed with IOs) and being forced into using slow attacks, which some people dislike on principle and makes you prone to corpse blasting.  I note that corpse blasting is less of an issue in situations where enemies generally aren't dead in one hit and/or where the TW character is off on their own, both of which are common at endgame and in many standard performance metrics (pylon, solo TF) and in "feats of strength" like "the TW char ran away from the team to clear half the ITF tunnel by themselves 🙄"  I could even resolve the "paradox" of with "because it appeals to the kind of players who like to solo hard content and have no problem PLing and funding a TW/Bio on a whim".

 

Seriously... running a TW character through DFB is rough.  It even gets in the way of Cadaver Counter since the only attacks you can safely use are Crushing Blow and Follow Through. 😅 

 

Now, is it appropriate to judge sets at endgame? Yeah, I think so, because "at level 50 with a full build" is a sensible balance point.  And, does a level 30 TW/Bio still outperform a level 30 [whatever] even on SOs? Maybe, I have no idea.  But I thought it was an interesting perspective and if changes are made to bring town the "top end" of Titan Weapons, maybe it is worth thinking about how to improve the feel of the leveling experience.  (Or not, if it just gets nerfed I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.)

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, FoulVileTerror said:

We've been largely on the same page with a lot of the discussions here, @Neiska, but even the Homecoming Team have admitted to the sticky legal situation surrounding this whole venture.  Negotiations alone don't make that situation any less sticky.

"Stolen" is definitely a word which could be used for it, up to and including in the court of law.

Oh, they are using data they didn't create, no arguement there. But it was openly published data, used by others as well. Which in the data world isn't protected data anymore, correct? It would be similar to like, going after wikipedia for something they posted at this point, wouldn't it? Not sure how the legal stuff works there. Its very convoluted .

[ScarySai]

In essence, it was published against NCsoft's will, but there's basically nothing they can do to stop private servers from popping up, now. The cat is out of the bag.

 

So in theory, they could hit servers, but more would just pop up and it would cost them more money than they probably care to spend to squash a few. Their best option is to legitimize HC, at least they will profit.

Edited September 21, 2020 by ScarySai

[JayboH]

I admit being out of the loop on SoA; I was not aware they weren't doing well

[Giovanni Valia]

6 minutes ago, Machariel said:

...and while it is very popular, I actually think it's in a good place and I don't feel like I see much of it in the wild...

 

The numbers really speak for themselves here. TW is an outlier. it's OP. Everyone knows it, but not everyone will admit it.

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Giovanni Valia

[skoryy]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

controllers I think just need to hit harder and/or have a more reliable inherent while being careful that it doesn't overshadow domination

I've been thinking something like Containment's extra damage kicking in on all holds, immobilizes, sleeps, and disorients.  Also, all pool powers should be eligible for the containment damage bonus.

[Widower]

Let's get away from the legal discussion; it's completely irrelevant to the topic of changing the game, except perhaps in answer to "why aren't you changing the game faster?" which, as far as I can tell, isn't the question here.

[Noyjitat]

You can go out and get a drivers license but that doesn't mean you're going to be a good driver. I really don't care what credentials those have developing homecoming. What I care about is if you are willing to fold when the people playing your game have problems with your greater vision rather than stick to it unmoving.

 

Also I see the same people here that always defend the nerfs of powers they don't like but jump for joy when something gets buffed that they don't enjoy playing. Im not sure its like they are more upset about an npcs feelings getting hurt than they are the player enjoying the powers. Which is why I offer up those asked for difficulty options and hard mode tfs/trials.

 

Difficulty options are basic stuff like +5 or higher enemy difficulties. Hard mode trials would be giving the bosses such as mother mayhem or lord recluse new abilities that make them lethal and more raid mechanics. Get out of this pink glow asap or it will kill you or if too many players get hit by this the av instantly heals or 1 shots half the league. I was speaking with leandro on discord about implementing hard mode stuff and it was a good conversation that appeared to be going somewhere but covid happened and he disappeared / deleted his discord account. 

 

Truth be told you could nerf the ever living hell out of all our powers and the good groups would still find a way to win and not be satisfied but soloing stuff would be beyond not fun. The game lacks hard mechanics in what's intended to be group because it uses the same balance as it does in all other content. How to beat what is perceived as hard stuff in coh is just throw buffs, debuffs and heals at it until it dies and never bother to break line of sight or step out of that fire dot burning you. The keys trials and mom trial started to add a couple things but stopped just short of making it truly difficult.

 

Finally what's easy to me is hard to someone else. You get this all the time when you see people asking in help chat to fight something as easy as Silver mantis; yes those players do exists that find enemies that easy to be challenging or someone wiping on a itf (I really don't see how this possible rofl)

Edited September 21, 2020 by Noyjitat