Game Balance & The Endgame

[Coyotedancer]

17 minutes ago, BitCook said:

The PBU + Farsight mechanic gives those toons the ability to underslot a lot of defensive powers that have become nearly defacto for anyone wanting to participate in the endgame content.  It gives those toons creative slotting opportunities to put Procs in places and feel like their damage output is almost relevant.  Yeah, giving 32% def with two powers is probably a little nuts.  However, those toons already have low damage output and have to work to come close to being relevant as it is.  

 

For what it's worth, the PB/Farsight/Clarion combination really isn't as de facto as all that. Power gamers who are deeply invested in meta-building tend to use it, but it's far from universal or even expected in my experience. I'm saying that as someone whose most-often-played-at-50+ Defender is a Time/Dark/Dark with Ageless. 

[Ukase]

On 9/20/2020 at 8:03 PM, FUBARczar said:

 

 

Reality check out how the sets perform here: blaster primaries

Ice isn't as good as you are saying

 

So, I read through that, with much interest. 

There was one metric that wasn't assessed. 
Which primary was the most fun? 

I originally had written a vast response, then realized that one question sums it up better. 

Those tests are interesting, yes. But, ice is sooooo much more fun to me than any other primary. Fire is second. But a distant second. And no math or silly comparison with poorly slotted characters is going to change that. 

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

When someone is arguing momentum counters TW having far away best in class damage and a host of buffs and knocks is when I realize I'm arguing against a Skip Bayless and I should do something more productive.

That's harsh. Bayless is, well, I'm not allowed to say certain things on these forums. His comments about Prescott were disgusting. Bayless has always been trash. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Kanil]

6 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

That's harsh. Bayless is, well, I'm not allowed to say certain things on these forums. His comments about Prescott were disgusting. Bayless has always been trash. 

yeah its real cool being called human garbage by someone who isnt willing to address any actual points of discussion beyond "actually its op"

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

That's harsh. Bayless is, well, I'm not allowed to say certain things on these forums. His comments about Prescott were disgusting. Bayless has always been trash. 

Agreed. 

[siolfir]

39 minutes ago, Kanil said:

im "debating" that fire blast and tw are the same type of outlier but tw being an outlier is a meme while fire blast being an outlier is "definitely fake because all it has is damage"  regardless of how all numbers show how fire blast adversely affects power choices despite the former being the one getting dinged for that exact reason

 

still haven't seen anyone even attempt to prove me wrong, they just keep saying the equiv of "b-but assault rifle has -def!!" like that's a real point instead of fire blast basically being momentum-on TW DPA-wise permanently isn't the outlier aspect

 

also while im editing, i demand full auto be a toggle

DPA (scale per second of Arcanatime animation) using Bopper's spreadsheet so I don't have to actually do the math myself except for Rain of Fire:

 

Fire Blast

Blaze: 2.294

Inferno: 2.073

Blazing Bolt (fast, 2.81 scale, 1.67 sec): 1.521

Blazing Bolt (slow, 5.03 scale, 3.67 sec): 1.314
Fire Ball: 1.004

Rain of Fire: 1.003* (NOTE: If all 75 ticks hit, which is highly unlikely both to the extended DoT duration and each tick having separate hit checks)

Flares: 0.850 (NOTE: Blaster standardized T1 in other sets, scale 1 w/4 second recharge,  is 0.842)

Fire Blast: 0.733 (NOTE: Blaster standardized T2 in other sets, scale 1.64 w/8 second recharge, is 0.888)

Fire Breath: 0.604

 

Titan Weapons (with Momentum)

Rend Armor: 2.212

Follow Through: 2.043

Arc of Destruction: 1.513

Rend Armor: 1.281

Crushing Blow: 1.242

Titan Sweep: 1.203

Whirling Smash: 1.152

Arc of Destruction: 0.894

Crushing Blow: 0.804

Defensive Sweep: 0.614

Titan Sweep: 0.541

Defensive Sweep: 0.307

 

So if you're comparing to Titan Weapons using Momentum, you're losing ground on every attack that isn't Blaze, Blazing Bolt, or Inferno; note that the numbers for Titan Weapons do not include the -resistance that its best attack also provides, which would act as a multiplier to that scale. Heck, the DPA numbers for Titan Weapons outside of Momentum are still comparable with other melee sets:

 

Radiation Melee

Devastating Blow: 1.061

Radioactive Smash: 0.863

Radiation Siphon: 0.825

Contaminated Strike: 0.796

Proton Sweep: 0.774

Atom Smasher: 0.489

 

Street Justice

Crushing Uppercut: 1.338 (at combo level 1)

Shin Breaker: 1.034

Heavy Blow: 0.878

Rib Cracker: 0.833

Sweeping Cross: 0.812

Initial Strike: 0.796

Spinning Strike: 0.778

 

Basically, the numbers for Fire Blast are carried by Blaze and Fire Ball... as mentioned earlier in the thread, Ice Blast has Freeze Ray (1.852) and Bitter Ice Blast (1.727) to compete in single-target damage, both of which are better than either version of Blazing Bolt.

[Mezmera]

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

DPA (scale per second of Arcanatime animation) using Bopper's spreadsheet so I don't have to actually do the math myself except for Rain of Fire:

 

Fire Blast

Blaze: 2.294

Inferno: 2.073

Blazing Bolt (fast, 2.81 scale, 1.67 sec): 1.521

Blazing Bolt (slow, 5.03 scale, 3.67 sec): 1.314
Fire Ball: 1.004

Rain of Fire: 1.003* (NOTE: If all 75 ticks hit, which is highly unlikely both to the extended DoT duration and each tick having separate hit checks)

Flares: 0.850 (NOTE: Blaster standardized T1 in other sets, scale 1 w/4 second recharge,  is 0.842)

Fire Blast: 0.733 (NOTE: Blaster standardized T2 in other sets, scale 1.64 w/8 second recharge, is 0.888)

Fire Breath: 0.604

 

Titan Weapons (with Momentum)

Rend Armor: 2.212

Follow Through: 2.043

Arc of Destruction: 1.513

Rend Armor: 1.281

Crushing Blow: 1.242

Titan Sweep: 1.203

Whirling Smash: 1.152

Arc of Destruction: 0.894

Crushing Blow: 0.804

Defensive Sweep: 0.614

Titan Sweep: 0.541

Defensive Sweep: 0.307

 

So if you're comparing to Titan Weapons using Momentum, you're losing ground on every attack that isn't Blaze, Blazing Bolt, or Inferno; note that the numbers for Titan Weapons do not include the -resistance that its best attack also provides, which would act as a multiplier to that scale. Heck, the DPA numbers for Titan Weapons outside of Momentum are still comparable with other melee sets:

 

Radiation Melee

Devastating Blow: 1.061

Radioactive Smash: 0.863

Radiation Siphon: 0.825

Contaminated Strike: 0.796

Proton Sweep: 0.774

Atom Smasher: 0.489

 

Street Justice

Crushing Uppercut: 1.338 (at combo level 1)

Shin Breaker: 1.034

Heavy Blow: 0.878

Rib Cracker: 0.833

Sweeping Cross: 0.812

Initial Strike: 0.796

Spinning Strike: 0.778

 

Basically, the numbers for Fire Blast are carried by Blaze and Fire Ball... as mentioned earlier in the thread, Ice Blast has Freeze Ray (1.852) and Bitter Ice Blast (1.727) to compete in single-target damage, both of which are better than either version of Blazing Bolt.

But what fire blasters chain isn't BU+Aim then Inferno, Blaze, Blazing Bolt, then Fireball for filler aoe.  Then rinse and repeat.  All without a mechanic you have to consciously maintain.  You're basically proving that fire blast out damages TW in a much faster and easier chain to maintain.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Mezmera

[Kanil]

11 minutes ago, siolfir said:

DPA (scale per second of Arcanatime animation) using Bopper's spreadsheet so I don't have to actually do the math myself except for Rain of Fire:

 

e Ray (1.852) and Bitter Ice Blast (1.727) to compete in single-target damage, both of which are better than either version of Blazing Bolt.

thanks for the rundown on the numbers, been curious about the direct comparison beyond just my own personal observations.

 

the nature of TW's string vs fire blast's string/anim times and the raw numbers that come up i think highlight more point more than they refute it in this case -

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

But what fire blasters chain isn't BU+Aim then Inferno, Blaze, Blazing Bolt, then Fireball for filler aoe.  Then rinse and repeat.  All without a mechanic you have to consciously maintain.  You're basically proving that fire blast out damages TW in a much faster and easier chain to maintain.

beaten while writing this post, but yeah. that.

 

once again, i'm not arguing for that the tw nerfs are unneeded or that fire blast should be nerfed, i'm just pointing out how the logic doesn't track at all to me beyond the most surface level observation or memetic statements (tw has -res, knockdown AND big damage whoaohohohoh)

 

fire blast is overall a better damage set than tw and that's a good thing due to the nature of how those ATs and sets differ.

the commonly repeated statement of 'tw is the only outlier to the point of where it obsoletes other powersets' makes no sense to me when fire blast is "near" momentum up TW while most other blast sets as a whole wish they could be even 80% of the way there.

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

But what fire blasters chain isn't BU+Aim then Inferno, Blaze, Blazing Bolt, then Fireball for filler aoe.  Then rinse and repeat.  All without a mechanic you have to consciously maintain.  You're basically proving that fire blast out damages TW in a much faster and easier chain to maintain.

It isn't the chain, or it is? If it's not (as you stated, I believe incorrectly) then it's not doing more. Also, I'd also like to see a build that can run a sustained damage chain that only consists of Blaze, Blazing Bolt, and Fire Ball. In either case, it's apples-to-oranges since Titan Weapons comes on a melee set and needs to be compared to other melee sets while Blasters are supposed to do more damage. If they're doing more than Titan Weapons, bully for them.

 

Fire Blast is also less of an outlier from the second place blast set than Titan Weapons is to the second place melee set, and as mentioned, the numbers for TW don't include -resistance which would actually raise them further.

Edited September 23, 2020 by siolfir

[Mezmera]

6 minutes ago, siolfir said:

It isn't the chain, or it is? If it's not (as you stated, I believe incorrectly) then it's not doing more. Also, I'd also like to see a build that can run a sustained damage chain that only consists of Blaze, Blazing Bolt, and Fire Ball. In either case, it's apples-to-oranges since Titan Weapons comes on a melee set and needs to be compared to other melee sets while Blasters are supposed to do more damage.

 

Fire Blast also less of an outlier from the second place blast set than Titan Weapons is to the second place melee set, and as mentioned, the numbers for TW don't include -resistance which would actually raise them further.

Inferno is up pretty much every mob so when you go boom almost everything dies.  TW ain't got that, then you just follow up with Blaze, Blazing Bolt and Fireball for the stragglers.  All without having to chase anyone down nor spending a bunch of time winding up.  I have a fire blaster, I hardly play her it's too easy but when I do Blaze and Blazing Bolt are easy 1-2 punches to keep blasting seeing how blaster attacks recharge so fast and IOs and all.  

 

I may have to toss in a t2 blast every once in a while in AV fights instead of a fire ball but fire blast is doing quite well.  

Edited September 23, 2020 by Mezmera

[Judasace]

6 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

"Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of a game".

Nerfs are important to maintaining fun too.  Having a balance of nerfs and buffs is like having a balanced diet and exercise.  Yeah, we'd all rather just pig out on whatever and not exercise but you still pay a cost for that.  The cost just happens later instead of right now.  A game that continues to make buffs but does not make nerfs will eventually nerf the fun for basically everyone.  Good example: if everyone becomes powerful enough not to need supports or CC or anything except kills...you're effectively nerfing everyone who does support/CC/utility even if no direct nerf happens.


There will always be a large drop in playerbase when a game goes live.  That's literally normal.  Only the most hugely successful games grow significantly after launch.  95% of games, good and bad both, will lose the majority of their playerbase within a year of launch and then slowly lose more players over time after that.

Everyone is already a tank mage once they slot IOs and basically turn into gods once they get their Incarnate abilities. My stalker can solo 8/+4. In the same mission, my Brute can just stand there with his one pbaoe on auto while I go afk and when I come back everything willl be dead. People already don't play the content and at least half just want to door sit until 50 while a Spines/Fire (by far the most common AT according to the released stats) does all the work alone.

 

That's what the majority is here for...to be super and self sufficient. They aren't looking to have to form the perfect team, play with the Holy Trinity or whatever.

 

the people that want that are the ones that stayed. Go ahead and nerf away...take away the little bit of investment people have in a character and those people won't stay wither, and HC will be as dead as the live servers.

[siolfir]

31 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Inferno is up pretty much every mob so when you go boom almost everything dies.  TW ain't got that, then you just follow up with Blaze, Blazing Bolt and Fireball for the stragglers.  All without having to chase anyone down nor spending a bunch of time winding up.  I have a fire blaster, I hardly play her it's too easy but when I do Blaze and Blazing Bolt are easy 1-2 punches to keep blasting seeing how blaster attacks recharge so fast and IOs and all.  

 

I may have to toss in a t2 blast every once in a while in AV fights instead of a fire ball but fire blast is doing quite well.  

I also have a fire blaster (fire/fire) but don't have her kitted out. I'm aware that it doesn't hurt for dealing damage, but every Blaster can clear spawns with BU+Aim+T9; again that's not unique to Fire Blast as a set, and the comparison should be Ranged set to Ranged set and Melee set to Melee set, not Ranged set to Melee set. Inferno also doesn't recharge for every mob: even at the recharge cap you have a 29 second recharge, so you can use it at best every 32 seconds with the animation time included.

 

Heck, if we're talking about clearing a spawn in 30 seconds I should compare to my Fortunata since she can take out nearly all of a non-resistant +3 spawn with damage-capped Psychic Wail (which has a lower target cap for Widows than a typical Blast set), heavily-procced Dominate, and the Blood Widow Claw attacks to finish off the bosses, but I have to wait for Psychic Wail (which has the same 145 second recharge) to recharge before the next spawn since she's not at the recharge cap, so I end up using Ionic Judgement - which anyone can get - instead.

Edited September 23, 2020 by siolfir

[Kanil]

47 minutes ago, siolfir said:

It isn't the chain, or it is? If it's not (as you stated, I believe incorrectly) then it's not doing more. Also, I'd also like to see a build that can run a sustained damage chain that only consists of Blaze, Blazing Bolt, and Fire Ball. In either case, it's apples-to-oranges since Titan Weapons comes on a melee set and needs to be compared to other melee sets while Blasters are supposed to do more damage. If they're doing more than Titan Weapons, bully for them.

 

Fire Blast is also less of an outlier from the second place blast set than Titan Weapons is to the second place melee set, and as mentioned, the numbers for TW don't include -resistance which would actually raise them further.

 it's the pretty well known chain for fire blast and is pretty easy to obtain on top of that.  sometimes you throw in a flares as filler but that's about it.

from group to group you're basically running BU/Aim (together or alternating, whichever floats your boat since both are valid) into inferno opener and blaze->snipe->fb to kill stragglers. i keep bringing up speedruns because it's the most extreme example of where TW and fire blast differ in terms of showcasing the difference in live play between the two sets, where the nature of TW/momentum actively hampers it vs. fire blast just running in and exploding all over the place.

 

that all blast sets have crashless nukes and can party train is definitely it's own can of worms that i've seen folks go back and forth on, but consider that as something that fire blast distinctly has in common with other blast sets (as the best? or close overall nuke) vs. something like TW needing momentum to start whirling blow/AoDing folks

 

i'd like to see what your opinions are for what the second place blast set and melee sets are and how wide of a gap that outlier is because i'm sure i have a skewed view of what those are due to testing high-end scrapper/bio armor builds vs. an overall broad perspective on melee sets on diff ats. i know people point towards the excel sheets or galaxy brain's testing as if they're some kind of holy grail for that but there's an element of live play and building that's lost there that you can see.

 

ofc, the nature of fire blast/tw comparison in the sense of "SO build vs. IO/high-end build in comparison to other sets" is totally a realistic aspect of the discussion as well, but that the discussion can even be had feels more like an indicator of what i'm saying bein' valid than not.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Kanil

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, Judasace said:

Everyone is already a tank mage once they slot IOs and basically turn into gods once they get their Incarnate abilities.

I mean, that's kinda the point, no?

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I mean, that's kinda the point, no?

According to some, no. There are several posts on these forums decrying how incarnates ruined the game because everyone is too powerful or how Judgement needs to be removed completely.

[Kanil]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I mean, that's kinda the point, no?

but i don't want to be a god, i want to be a squid

/

 

 

 

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Kanil said:

but i don't want to be a god, i want to be a squid

/

 

 

 

You must set your sights...deeper, child of the stars.

 

 

@ShardWarriorFrankly, those people are full of s***.

Edited September 23, 2020 by ScarySai

[Ralathar44]

6 minutes ago, Judasace said:

Everyone is already a tank mage once they slot IOs and basically turn into gods once they get their Incarnate abilities. My stalker can solo 8/+4. In the same mission, my Brute can just stand there with his one pbaoe on auto while I go afk and when I come back everything willl be dead. People already don't play the content and at least half just want to door sit until 50 while a Spines/Fire (by far the most common AT according to the released stats) does all the work alone.

That's the problem innit?  The game balance is based around all classes needing each other to some significant degree and filling the holes that other classes lack.  Complete IOs and Incarnate basically destroys that interconnected relationship.
 

9 minutes ago, Judasace said:

That's what the majority is here for...to be super and self sufficient. They aren't looking to have to form the perfect team, play with the Holy Trinity or whatever.

You do not speak for the majority, even the entire forums here are only a tiny % of the people who play and cannot speak for the majority.  Also, this game does not have a holy trinity.  Tank/heals/dps is not COH.  CC, Debuff, and Buff are so much more powerful than in other games.  As someone pointed out earlier a team full of buff/debuffer characters is quite strong, which does not work in Trinity designed games.

Nobody is arguing for a Trinity, that I know of anyways.  But classes needing other classes to do the hardest content?  That's a pretty reasonable ask IMO. 
 

13 minutes ago, Judasace said:

the people that want that are the ones that stayed. Go ahead and nerf away...take away the little bit of investment people have in a character and those people won't stay wither, and HC will be as dead as the live servers.

Honestly that's the exact opposite because the people that wanted the "my character is a god and can taken on the highest difficulties solo" went away.  Because that was pre-ED.  ED is what allowed a proper end game to start being made as well as a great deal of build variety to exist via IOs.  Solo dolo was never what this game was, though it was a niche some people liked WITHIN this game.  But honestly if I want to solo and feel like a god tackling the highest difficulty an MMORPG is not my first choice for that lol.  Because it's kind of meaningless if I'm so overpowered there is no challenge left.  It just becomes a grind for more money and more numbers that I'll never need.  If I want that fix I'll just play an idle game :P.

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Kanil said:

it's the pretty well known chain for fire blast and is pretty easy to obtain on top of that.  sometimes you throw in a flares as filler but that's about it.

But that was my point, you have to throw in filler because it's not sustainable, any more than constantly having Momentum is sustainable for Titan Weapons. That filler time is where Fire Blast loses ground in overall single-target chains, even though you gain ground every time you use Blaze.

 

As for the AoE burst to clear things, every Blaster primary can do the same; Ice takes longer than most because of Blizzard and Ice Storm taking so long to deal their damage, but the patch powers at least can violate the target cap and Ice can keep up with Fire in single target while doing it more safely (since its best single target chain includes -to-hit and a hold).

[Lockpick]

2 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Nobody is arguing for a Trinity, that I know of anyways.  But classes needing other classes to do the hardest content?  That's a pretty reasonable ask IMO. 

We do have that.  The hardest content are the iTrials and Hami.  In general, you need groups to do that content.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

That's the problem innit?  The game balance is based around all classes needing each other to some significant degree and filling the holes that other classes lack.  Complete IOs and Incarnate basically destroys that interconnected relationship.
 

You do not speak for the majority, even the entire forums here are only a tiny % of the people who play and cannot speak for the majority.  Also, this game does not have a holy trinity.  Tank/heals/dps is not COH.  CC, Debuff, and Buff are so much more powerful than in other games.  As someone pointed out earlier a team full of buff/debuffer characters is quite strong, which does not work in Trinity designed games.

Nobody is arguing for a Trinity, that I know of anyways.  But classes needing other classes to do the hardest content?  That's a pretty reasonable ask IMO. 
 

Honestly that's the exact opposite because the people that wanted the "my character is a god and can taken on the highest difficulties solo" went away.  Because that was pre-ED.  ED is what allowed a proper end game to start being made as well as a great deal of build variety to exist via IOs.  Solo dolo was never what this game was, though it was a niche some people liked WITHIN this game.  But honestly if I want to solo and feel like a god tackling the highest difficulty an MMORPG is not my first choice for that lol.  Because it's kind of meaningless if I'm so overpowered there is no challenge left.  It just becomes a grind for more money and more numbers that I'll never need.  If I want that fix I'll just play an idle game :P.

Are you sure you're not Jack?

 

One of the appeals of this game was that no, it didn't have classes needing each other significantly and you could make teams how you liked and still do fine. If you wanted to go with all damage, you could. Even with suboptimal builds.

[Ralathar44]

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

According to some, no. There are several posts on these forums decrying how incarnates ruined the game because everyone is too powerful or how Judgement needs to be removed completely.

If they had their own content to go to or if they scaled down properly for non-god tier content then it'd be totally fine.  Problem is those gods step down and play amongst mere mortals and so if you don't want to be a god you still have no choice but to be carried by a god or solo.  The problem isn't being god tier, the problem is that god tier person in your team trivializes everything for anyone who isn't looking to be god tier.

Every mission has a set amount of "fun" that can be had.  Fun is subjective, but the resources we use to procure our fun are not.  Each mobs has a certain number of enemies with a certain amount of HP.  I want to feel super too, but if a god comes in and deals 80% of the hp of every group in at the start of every fight then the most super I can ever potentially feel is limited by the 20% of their hp remaining.  I don't get the thrill of surviving hard situations or saving someone else.  I don't get to be the protector, the hero, the disabler, the maniacal mastermind commanding their puppies to boop enemies to death.  I get to watch the god destroy all the content I'm desperately trying to enjoy.

The enjoyment of a mission is finite, and past a certain point someone joy is taking away from the joy of others.  Unless you just want to be power leveled of carried, in which case enjoy the ride.

[Ralathar44]

9 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Are you sure you're not Jack?

 

One of the appeals of this game was that no, it didn't have classes needing each other significantly and you could make teams how you liked and still do fine. If you wanted to go with all damage, you could. Even with suboptimal builds.

TBH I was never fond of the slotting aspect of ED and their idea that it would "diversify" slotting was pretty nonsense.  Though IOs later did accomplish that, so they succeeded later in that regard.  What I supported was the global nerfs to defense/survivability, AOE caps, and aggro caps so now more than 1 tank on a team could be useful, more than 1 controller could be useful, and defenders could go back to being useful for more than damage buffing again since the tank could just pull everything into a dumpster and control all aggro so nobody needed any support or protection.  And I didn't support that at first, I was more of a wait and see approach while the forums burned down with white hot rage lol.  After it all had played out I agreed it was a great move for the game.

If you want to call me Jack for that, go ahead.  I'll take it as a compliment.  Man was not perfect, but game developers do more and put up with more than 99% of gamers will ever know.  Most folks just focus on 2-3 snapshots of all the thousands of decisions and tens of thousands of manhours they put in.  I reject the binary labeling of folks people barely know the slightest thing about, gaming or non.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Kanil]

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

But that was my point, you have to throw in filler because it's not sustainable, any more than constantly having Momentum is sustainable for Titan Weapons. That filler time is where Fire Blast loses ground in overall single-target chains, even though you gain ground every time you use Blaze.

 

As for the AoE burst to clear things, every Blaster primary can do the same; Ice takes longer than most because of Blizzard and Ice Storm taking so long to deal their damage, but the patch powers at least can violate the target cap and Ice can keep up with Fire in single target while doing it more safely (since its best single target chain includes -to-hit and a hold).

it feels strange to me that throwing in a flares is seen as equally sustainable as TW sacrificing momentum build from group-to-group or drastically slowing down in ST rotations on whiffs and momentum builder attacks but i get the angle you're coming at in that scenario of a raw ST damage lighting up a stationary AV thing where TW 'gains' so much from its mechanic activating like that vs. 'losing out' because you sometimes have to use flares. it just doesn't feel like a good overall comparison to me in terms of efficacy of powersets and how much momentum affects the play-to-play situation of TW and how little fire blast sacrifices in 'exchange'

 

that's def going into the 'what's better, fire blast or tw' argument which is just kind of a side discussion to my main point still:
 

what is the outlier in TW vs. the outlier in FB? how are those measured? why is it the TW is seen as 'an extreme outlier that is negatively affecting players and power choices' when fire blast exists and does the very thing that TW is purportedly being nerfed over?

 

i actually hate the 'playerbase powerset picked graph' for just using as concrete proof but like, what's the proof otherwise? people pick fire blast more than the next two popular powersets combined in every single powerset where it's available besides the obvious exception of defender sonic blast

Edited September 23, 2020 by Kanil

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Ralathar44 said:

Problem is those gods step down and play amongst mere mortals and so if you don't want to be a god you still have no choice but to be carried by a god or solo.

Except this is not entirely true and is more often than not a self inflicted issue.  There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone such as yourself from using the available social tools both in game and out to find like minded players to team up with.  Nothing is stopping you or anyone from advertising to form non-speed, no incarnate powers missions or TFs and the like in game.  I know there are quite a few people who feel the same way from posts I have seen on these forums.  What is stopping you from linking up in game, forming your own teams and playing how you all enjoy? 

 

6 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

The enjoyment of a mission is finite, and past a certain point someone joy is taking away from the joy of others.

This door absolutely swings both ways.  Those who have invested a lot of time into building their characters the way they like to be as powerful as they like because that is what they find fun should not have to dumb down their experience to satisfy others.  What I said above applies here too.  Those people have plenty of channels to find like minded players who enjoy playing that way and they do find others to team with.