Game Balance & The Endgame

[Ruin Mage]

And this is also why I keep reiterating to wait for the execution of such thoughts / plans.

Lord.

[Renbletz]

Welp, after having waded through the cesspool of the last couple pages of this thread, I thought I'd ignore it entirely and just post my feedback. 😄

 

I'm actually pretty excited about the TW nerf, because Notably More Godlike Than Others specs are bad for the game in general, though I hope any /bio nerfs don't carry over to sentinels because I adore my /bio sentinel.  Though I understand if she ends up getting a bit of a nerf.

 

Also VERY excited to see Blaster secondaries on the list, but I hope it's because of the reason I'm thinking of - more blaster secondary sets need the kind of Sustain toggles that Tactical Arrow, Plant, Cold, etc have.  If they decide to nuke the sustain toggles entirely, I will be a very sad panda.  That's a threat, btw.  SAD. PANDA.  May your heartstrings beware.

 

In general, I think that this game kinda thrives on people FEELING powerful with their characters - they're SUPER heroes/villains.  So I'm hoping we see more buffs than nerfs, because if I just feel balanced, I'm gonna play something else.  I like feeling like a wrought-iron bad***.  Even if other people are titanium alloy bad***es, so long as I still feel OP in Homecoming, I'm happy.  For example, my Dark/Bio sentinel FEELS riggedity-rigged in group play because she can debuff enemies' hit into the basement so often with Blackstar and also has a lot of trouble dying, even if objectively her damage is kinda poo (which is pretty noticeable when soloing).  Being able to tank 2 AVs at once, though, on a class that's "only kinda" tanky... MMM.  So good.  Plus holding actual aggro on those AVs against blasters... yeah.  Love it.

 

My point is that if you can capture the feeling of being SUPER without actually needing to be a god, you've hit the right spot.

 

I know it's a tough thing to hit.  For example, my Claws/Fire Brute is, objectively, pretty good.  But he feels crappy, in particular because his AOEs never actually AOE due to poor range/arcs.

 

If I spend more time frustrated with my character than happy with my character, then I either built my character wrong (potentially the case w/ my Brute?) or the devs have some work to do.

 

If I spend more time satisfied/happy with my character than frustrated with my character, then I'm probably in that sweet spot, especially if there are times I'm frustrated and/or dead.

 

If I spend my time frustrated that I can't solo Heroes/AVs in 20sec and "just" take 40sec, I'm a wanker and my feedback should be ignored.  Although that dude actually taking 20sec prolly needs a nerf.

 

Guess that's my end point.

 

Thanks for listening to my ramble.

 

[ZacKing]

10 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

But you can do that solo.  You're a god, you can handle it solo.  If it's just a power fantasy then you can get those some group sizes and levels and wipe it solo.  You have the ability to be that powerful without being on a team.  So that's not really it.  And you're not looking to make other players feel awesome either, because being a god in their mission does the exact opposite.  If you wanted to make them feel awesome you'd play support instead of a invincible god laying waste to missions.

So it's more about showing off that godhood to other players, because if people were looking to be PL'd...that's what AE is for lol.  It's not just that folks want to be a god, they want others to see how much of a god they are relative to them.  Prolly about the only time I see teams full of incarnates is incarnate content and WTFs.  Otherwise it's usually 1-2 to a group and if more joins others get bored and quit.

Uhm no, it's me wanting to play with friends because we have fun together.  no offense but your reply comes off as envious and jealous of others being better at the game than you.  Why should people who invested more time and effort into their character have to lower themselves to your level to accommodate you?  If you don't feel like you're adding anything to a team, leave the team and go find another one.  plenty of teams being formed every day.  there's at least a dozen people in this thread alone who look like they share your views on how to play.  why don't you all team up together and go have fun the way you like?  I'll answer for you - because it takes work and it's much easier to PUG it and then feel sorry for yourself and complain on the forums that nerfs are needed.  you go play the way you want more power to you and I hope you have a lot of fun.  let others play the way they like. 

 

1 hour ago, Phoenix' said:

Incarnates should be stripped from the game till they get remodeled. They should be a boost to your toon not making it a god. 

No, they shouldn't.  If you don't like them, don't use them and team with other people who don't like them.  Problem solved.

[Piecemeal]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

I'd hate to be the person combing this thread for any semblance of feedback.

I came in here optimistic. I still am, but also this:

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Piecemeal
I like to maek joeks

[ShardWarrior]

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Please re-read what I wrote: "I run teams all the time, there are already precious few enough folks running teams many nights" .  Like all populations there are peaks and valleys in the amount of people playing and it varies night to night.  Sometimes predictably, often not.  Sometimes very few people are on, sometimes they are all in the wrong level ranges, sometimes everyone is soloing. 

I've got tons of global friend requests from running teams and I keep getting happy hails from people who recognize me from the teams I keep running.  All feedback has been good and I'm an experienced team runner.  I use all tools available including the lfg chat, and in game search and tells and etc.  Some nights dead is dead.  Not excuses, LFG chat dead, broadcast dead, everyone afk/solo/etc.  This was not near as much the case about a month or a month and a half ago but the population has noticbly dipped since then and this is noticeable even on the server load screen.

If you only play prime time perhaps you don't see it as much, but I play CST from prime time (7PMish CST) and then often deep into the night (as late as 3amish CST sometimes).  I'm an experienced team leader though, it is what it is.  Server is not as active as it was.  Folks who spend a good amount of time off peak see those dips before everyone else is aware of them. 

Low population is not something anyone has control over and if anything is an even better reason why people make solo capable characters.  If you are getting a lot of tells and requests from others to for teams, I do not understand why you are saying it is difficult to find others who play as you do.  Something does not jive there.

 

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Right, so are you willing to concede that maybe it's not YOU being like this but maybe alot of other incarnates are playing as I mentioned?  The concern, as mentioned, is certainly not confined to me.  And as presented you are not part of the problem here.  And indeed I don't think people wanting to play together with other people on Icarnate characters is a problem.  The problem is bringing that incarnate power level into non-incarnate missions as the default, which is a systems problem.

There are jerks everywhere and they are very easily avoided.  Again, if you are on a team that is not playing the way you like, leave the team and go find another one.

 

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

I don't want to prevent people from playing together, but when a controller can stroll into the middle of the +4/8 group and solo it then alot of people's roles on the team are being invalidated and the fun of the team > the fun of the incarnate.  You suggested controlling it as team leader.  What if team leader could toggle on/off "incarnate mode"?  So that they had a setting which would "pause" or disable incarnate powers and level shifts on their team.  That way incarnates could play too, just not be game breakingly powerful and if the group wanted it then the mode could be toggled.

Coding a "no incarnate" toggle is not necessary.  You can already form a team of non-incarnates or request no one with them use them or un-slot them. 

[Andreah]

One option would be to emphasize bringing poorer performing power sets up, but also adjusting difficulty of enemies upward slightly in general; and at difficulties +2/x3 and higher, especially.

 

The sort of thing I would do, would be to give larger groups of enemies in a fight a mutual "leadership" buff based solely on the presence of one or more Lts or Bosses. (And especially EB's and AV's).

 

One could do interesting things with this, too. Such as put them in classes of support, offense, or defense. A support Lt or Boss might grant regeneration and recovery to the mobs nearby. An offense Lt or Boss would grant to-hit and accuracy to all their nearby allies. A tanking one would grant them all some defense or resistance buffage. And these various buffs could scale upward a little bit proportionately to how many minions are nearby.

 

So when we run at +0/x1, this is pretty modest, or even unnoticeable effect. But when you run at +4/x8 with Bosses enabled, you might be in for a fight. One to bring friends to, and also tactically prioritize taking down higher ranking enemies first.

 

 

 

[Phoenix']

11 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Inferno is up pretty much every mob so when you go boom almost everything dies.  TW ain't got that, then you just follow up with Blaze, Blazing Bolt and Fireball for the stragglers.  All without having to chase anyone down nor spending a bunch of time winding up.  I have a fire blaster, I hardly play her it's too easy but when I do Blaze and Blazing Bolt are easy 1-2 punches to keep blasting seeing how blaster attacks recharge so fast and IOs and all.  

 

I may have to toss in a t2 blast every once in a while in AV fights instead of a fire ball but fire blast is doing quite well.  

I dont want inferno to recharge so damn fast. 

Its unfair even though I mainly play fire blaster for like 10+years.

I would prefer to bring inferno to where it was before and just increase its dmg 30-40%.

It still cant kill a whole mob at +4,x8

I would prefer it could but not that often 

[Grouchybeast]

32 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Coding a "no incarnate" toggle is not necessary.  You can already form a team of non-incarnates or request no one with them use them or un-slot them. 

I think a one-step no incarnate powers toggle for team leaders would be a great option.  Instead of potentially seven other people having to futz around with their characters, one person changes one setting.  It moves the burden of organization to the team leader, makes it extremely simple to operate, and means that the incarnate players don't need to waste their time unslotting abilities or remember not to use their incarnate powers.   New players who join the team will automatically have the right settings applied.  Then when players leave the team the character will be automatically restored to how it was before.  Nice and streamlined for everyone.

[Coyotedancer]

It's a interesting idea, the 'No iToys Allowed'-toggle on teams.... But I'm not sure even having that would stop the belly-aching about "OMG Incarnates kicked my dog and insulted my mother and ruined my game!" 

[Phoenix']

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Uhm no, it's me wanting to play with friends because we have fun together.  no offense but your reply comes off as envious and jealous of others being better at the game than you.  Why should people who invested more time and effort into their character have to lower themselves to your level to accommodate you?  If you don't feel like you're adding anything to a team, leave the team and go find another one.  plenty of teams being formed every day.  there's at least a dozen people in this thread alone who look like they share your views on how to play.  why don't you all team up together and go have fun the way you like?  I'll answer for you - because it takes work and it's much easier to PUG it and then feel sorry for yourself and complain on the forums that nerfs are needed.  you go play the way you want more power to you and I hope you have a lot of fun.  let others play the way they like. 

 

No, they shouldn't.  If you don't like them, don't use them and team with other people who don't like them.  Problem solved.

This game always had a very rewarding system with all the insps and temp buffs and there were only few challenges left in pve that had to rely to proper teamwork and sets to achieve your goal. 

With incarnates all those challenges were gone.

The game is so easy now. 

Just because you have a hard time soloing in this game without incarnates it doesn't mean they are fine. (Unless you are rolling a support toon) 

Incarnates need remodeling and as I said they need to be a boost to your toon not transforming it to a god that can solo a gm... 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Phoenix'

[Ruin Mage]

The Incarnate system is a great boogeyman.

Problem: IOs were making the game easier before the Incarnate system.
Problem #2: Some power combos absolutely shredded before Incarnates were a thing.
Solution: Remove/Nerf IOs (^:

Problem #3: The game was already being made easy by its own devs before the Incarnate system showed up.
Solution: Flip off Paragon Studios and revert back to Issue 0 and play a way more tedious version of City of Heroes.
ez.
 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Shadeknight

[Pzn]

34 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I think a one-step no incarnate powers toggle for team leaders would be a great option.  Instead of potentially seven other people having to futz around with their characters, one person changes one setting.  It moves the burden of organization to the team leader, makes it extremely simple to operate, and means that the incarnate players don't need to waste their time unslotting abilities or remember not to use their incarnate powers.   New players who join the team will automatically have the right settings applied.  Then when players leave the team the character will be automatically restored to how it was before.  Nice and streamlined for everyone.

I'm against a button that lets the team leader disable my powers.  I could see it as an additional option for task forces, but I would find it frustrating to join a regular mission group and face restrictions on what powers I'm allowed to use.  You can already form a team without using incarnates by advertising it that way.  I don't see what function a no incarnate toggle would provide outside of forcing it on a team that didn't agree to it.

[Bionic_Flea]

Here's an idea:  What if we limited I-powers only to level 50+ content? 

 

It's only a slight limitation from what already exists but it always seemed odd to me to see a character T4 in all incarnate powers in level 45-49 stuff.

[ShardWarrior]

17 minutes ago, Phoenix' said:

This game always had a very rewarding system with all the insps and temp buffs and there were only few challenges left in pve that had to rely to proper teamwork and sets to achieve your goal. 

With incarnates all those challenges were gone.

The game is so easy now. 

Just because you have a hard time soloing in this game without incarnates it doesn't mean they are fine. (Unless you are rolling a support toon) 

Incarnates need remodeling and as I said they need to be a boost to your toon not transforming it to a god that can solo a gm... 

You are ignoring the lore and story content itself with regard to incarnates.  Replay the final mission of the Mender Ramiel arc again and pay close attention to the final cut scene were he and Silos are referring to those touched by the well as "god-like beings".  Your character is on that same path.  I will repeat it yet again, Incarnates being powerful is not the problem  The problem is the lack of content designed for and balanced around them is.  Allowing incarnates to be used outside of DA and iTrials can be an issue for some as well, but that can easily be solved by forming a team appropriately or simply never crafting and slotting incarnate powers on characters and running the content how you like.

53 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I think a one-step no incarnate powers toggle for team leaders would be a great option.  Instead of potentially seven other people having to futz around with their characters, one person changes one setting.  It moves the burden of organization to the team leader, makes it extremely simple to operate, and means that the incarnate players don't need to waste their time unslotting abilities or remember not to use their incarnate powers.   New players who join the team will automatically have the right settings applied.  Then when players leave the team the character will be automatically restored to how it was before.  Nice and streamlined for everyone.

I suppose so long as the team leader would advertise ahead of time, but that can be done now.  And again, how difficult is it to not click an incarnate power button?

[Parabola]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

Here's an idea:  What if we limited I-powers only to level 50+ content? 

 

It's only a slight limitation from what already exists but it always seemed odd to me to see a character T4 in all incarnate powers in level 45-49 stuff.

This would certainly be a start. I'd also remove the level shift in non-incarnate content altogether and take a very serious look at what incarnate powers are doing on top of that. I find the homogenized 'everyone gets a nuke/buff/pet power' a little unsatisfying quite apart from what those powers do balance wise.

 

I've gone on about this before but in particular the level shift makes zero sense to me. Incarnate powers already make characters more powerful, why does the headroom of the difficulty slider need to be lowered in order to make them feel more so? When we have people calling for higher options like +5 or x10 how does it make sense to have a system that effectively reduces the cap from +4 to +3 specifically for the most powerful characters?

[Patti]

I see people saying "work" and "earn" and invest."   Are they playing a game or a career?   I mean if that's their bag that's their bag.   I just can't wrap my head around it.   It's make-believe for enjoyment.   If you're worried about your return of investment on a free bootleg game, remember you have the power to decide how much time and effort you actually invest.   Maybe taking it easy and enjoying the game in new ways will be helpful to not feeling like you've sunk a real cost in to a leisure activity.   Leveling up isn't the same as getting a promotion at your job.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I came in here optimistic. I still am, but also this:

Any progress on that 'Arrow of Vengeance' idea? 😄

[Kanil]

can someone sum up what the other majority of the last 3 pages were about because i aint reading all of that, i just want folks to prove me wrong about how fire blast isn't the same type of outlier as tw (and demonstrably more negative for powerset picking re: obsoleting other powersets to the point of where it drastically affects player population picks) with actual facts and logic instead of memery and pearl-clutching

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Kanil

[Piecemeal]

27 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Any progress on that 'Arrow of Vengeance' idea? 😄

Sounds like a Freaklok power to me.

 

I might call it "Arrow of Snackrifice". A boss shoots a minion in the head for a data buff.

[ScarySai]

This pleases me.

[Tsuko]

3 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

Sounds like a Freaklok power to me.

 

I might call it "Arrow of Snackrifice". A boss shoots a minion in the head for a data buff.

[Patti]

Freakalok use arrows?

[ShardWarrior]

26 minutes ago, Patti said:

I see people saying "work" and "earn" and invest."   Are they playing a game or a career?   I mean if that's their bag that's their bag.   I just can't wrap my head around it.   It's make-believe for enjoyment.   If you're worried about your return of investment on a free bootleg game, remember you have the power to decide how much time and effort you actually invest.   Maybe taking it easy and enjoying the game in new ways will be helpful to not feeling like you've sunk a real cost in to a leisure activity.   Leveling up isn't the same as getting a promotion at your job.

While I can understand and appreciate this point of view, it demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of how others view their hobby or past time.  There are a great many people across all walks of life who have a passion for something, be it starting a business or following a favorite sports team or whatever.  Those people are not spending their time and effort doing what they do because they see it as a chore or a job.  It is an activity they enjoy doing and expecting them to treat it otherwise is absurd. 

[Phoenix']

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

You are ignoring the lore and story content itself with regard to incarnates.  Replay the final mission of the Mender Ramiel arc again and pay close attention to the final cut scene were he and Silos are referring to those touched by the well as "god-like beings".  Your character is on that same path.  I will repeat it yet again, Incarnates being powerful is not the problem  The problem is the lack of content designed for and balanced around them is.  Allowing incarnates to be used outside of DA and iTrials can be an issue for some as well, but that can easily be solved by forming a team appropriately or simply never crafting and slotting incarnate powers on characters and running the content how you like.

I suppose so long as the team leader would advertise ahead of time, but that can be done now.  And again, how difficult is it to not click an incarnate power button?

Everyone wants to have a godlike toon. 

I think it was poorly executed though. 

If for example incarnates were more Archetype oriented they might be better. 

Lore for masterminds and controllers 

Judgement for blasters and domis and stuff like that that will follow each ATs attributes different numbers of dmg or buffs at each. 

Im sorry but having barrier stacked on my toon with an army of lore pets and perma regen, recovery in an only blaster team that debuffs like crazy and can aggro and kill anything is not really my thing. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Phoenix'

[Patti]

Not everyone.