Game Balance & The Endgame

[TC]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

It really only concerns Electric, Energy, Super Reflexes, Ninja, and Invuln.  But also in a way looking at Dark and Fire as well.

 

Ice Armor is a great example of changing things up.

Dark and Fire for sure need it; a self-rez is not a power typically worth picking up. If you're planning on dying as a character with a defensive set, you probably don't want to be a meatshield to begin with.

 

But there's more than just Electric, Energy, Super Reflexes, Ninja, and Invuln; there's Shield, Stone, Regen and Willpower as well. This goes for the PB Lightform and WS Stygian Rez too. These account for almost all defensive sets, and it's sad because the T9s are taken in jest, for aesthetics, or as a unique IO donkey. I don't remember what they did to Ice, but Hibernate could do more, IMO.

 

If you look at Rad and Bio Armor, the two newest sets, you can see the devs were headed this direction too. Bio has an all-around unique playstyle around toggles and the T9 is a new defensive toggle. Rad has a T9 that functions similarly to the others, but is a toned down version with +recovery, +15% res to all, a dmg boost, and the endo crash is small, not massive.

[summers]

Just a reminder that this is a volunteer team that owe us absolutely nothing. I'm sure they are happy for feedback but please be respectful

[Jimmy]

3 minutes ago, TC said:

Dark and Fire for sure need it; a self-rez is not a power typically worth picking up. If you're planning on dying as a character with a defensive set, you probably don't want to be a meatshield to begin with.

 

But there's more than just Electric, Energy, Super Reflexes, Ninja, and Invuln; there's Shield, Stone, Regen and Willpower as well. This goes for the PB Lightform and WS Stygian Rez too. These account for almost all defensive sets, and it's sad because the T9s are taken in jest, for aesthetics, or as a unique IO donkey. I don't remember what they did to Ice, but Hibernate could do more, IMO.

 

If you look at Rad and Bio Armor, the two newest sets, you can see the devs were headed this direction too. Bio has an all-around unique playstyle around toggles and the T9 is a new defensive toggle. Rad has a T9 that functions similarly to the others, but is a toned down version with +recovery, +15% res to all, a dmg boost, and the endo crash is small, not massive.

Willpower has a good one too!

 

I agree, though. Rad is the example to look at (but we also wouldn't want them all to be clones).

[zenblack]

Problems I feel that need to be overcome as balance is strived for.

 

1.) The Incarnate system rigs 35+ stuff to obsolescence. There is no scaling, just full blown Incarnates destroying content intended to be 1/3(ish) of the game. This should be looked at and modified so that either the inclusion of unbounded Incarnates is considered or how much of the game needs to be operating under full Incarnate status.

 

2.) Raw Damage vs Mobs needs to be looked at, or more precisely the time it takes to kill certain types of enemies needs to favor more options (Debuff/Buff, Off-tanking). This can be done a few ways, but it needs to be addressed.

 

3.) Movement to a more tactical approach to encounters. This has a lot it needs to deal with, considering the hard control the game offers and it's tanking/aggro mechanism, but more importantly it needs to be in encounter design. There needs to be a reason to use control on select targets. There needs to be a variety of potential points of attack. There needs to be an addition and proliferation of different types of thematic units that provide these opportunities within each faction. It would also not hurt to have a look at some of the stealth mechanics and how they interact with mission goal(s) and what should be able to overcome them (this will probably need a finer gradient of perception/threat levels.

 

4.) A look at status and status protection/resistance to better enable interactions in party and enemy threat to a party. Having the greater majority of all status effects not matter is not good design and it doesn't allow enemies to leverage any advantage by giving them status attacks unless they are impossible to resist (see Mighty Roar).

 

All in all, this is a very large undertaking and I am glad HC team is communicating with us their desire to make a more enjoyable game that makes you feel heroic but at the same time earn that heroic experience.

[TC]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Willpower has a good one too!

 

I agree, though. Rad is the example to look at (but we also wouldn't want them all to be clones).

I'm glad to hear this is at least something that is being considered, thanks. Also, yeah, clones is sort of what we got on LIVE with regards to the T9s and obviously that didn't pan out long term (we're complaining about it in 2020 lol).

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

Wow, there are people actually trying to defend Titan Weapon's output.

 

Titan Weapons has always been known to be overpowered, it has been that way since day one of the sets existence, the fact it was broken as heck was a freaking MEME for god's sake and people are still trying to defend it.

 

Power sets having damage numbers that are way outside any level of acceptable Variance is not working as intended.

I wasn't defending it.  I simply expressed a desire to raise the tides before you chop the trees down. 

 

1 hour ago, TC said:

Dark and Fire for sure need it; a self-rez is not a power typically worth picking up. If you're planning on dying as a character with a defensive set, you probably don't want to be a meatshield to begin with.

 

But there's more than just Electric, Energy, Super Reflexes, Ninja, and Invuln; there's Shield, Stone, Regen and Willpower as well. This goes for the PB Lightform and WS Stygian Rez too. These account for almost all defensive sets, and it's sad because the T9s are taken in jest, for aesthetics, or as a unique IO donkey. I don't remember what they did to Ice, but Hibernate could do more, IMO.

 

If you look at Rad and Bio Armor, the two newest sets, you can see the devs were headed this direction too. Bio has an all-around unique playstyle around toggles and the T9 is a new defensive toggle. Rad has a T9 that functions similarly to the others, but is a toned down version with +recovery, +15% res to all, a dmg boost, and the endo crash is small, not massive.

Ice got Icy Bastion on Stalkers and Scrappers which gives +resistance to all but psi, +regen +recovery + status resist.

 

Stone Armor needs a lot more than a T9 look.

 

Shield, WP and Regen are at least somewhat useful.

Edited September 20, 2020 by FUBARczar

[TC]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

Ice got Icy Bastion on Stalkers and Scrappers which gives +resistance to all but psi, +regen +recovery + status resist.

 

Stone Armor needs a lot more than a T9 look.

 

Shield, WP and Regen are at least somewhat useful.

Thanks for clarification on Ice, I didn't know that.

 

Shield and WP are both T9s with a crash, although Jimmy said WP is good so maybe my MIDS is out of date for these two? I do and don't agree with you on Stone Armor. On one hand, yes. On the other hand, back in pre-IO days, Stone Tanks were the Gods of tanking because of Granite armor and Granite armor only. I think to an extent, Granite armor is supposed to make or break Stone as a set because that's kind of like a piece of CoH history lol. I think keeping that intact by changing up Granite Armor would be awesome.

 

I disagree on Regen, though. MoG is the poster child for a unique IO mule.

[Noyjitat]

15 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

 

Take a look through the live patch notes and tell me where we've made characters useless. I'm not interested in hearing about your experiences with nerfs on live, because obviously we didn't have anything to do with that.

This has everything to do with live because you're changing things from live that which hasn't been changed in many issues because you feel is overperforming, underperforming and broken. Making all melee cones and aoes characters smaller for dps characters but larger for the now over buffed tank is just one travesty.

The mess that's currently on closed beta is seriously disgusting and I hope you'll not ignore but take what feedback you get and really act upon it this time.

 

Powers development should instead be going to giving us new powers or proliferating npcs powers, making new powers for incarnate and tf bosses to make them more challenging in hard mode trials. You could be giving us more difficulty options and those mentioned hard mode trials and that would give us the challenge we need instead of breaking everything.

[FUBARczar]

11 hours ago, TC said:

Thanks for clarification on Ice, I didn't know that.

 

Shield and WP are both T9s with a crash, although Jimmy said WP is good so maybe my MIDS is out of date for these two? I do and don't agree with you on Stone Armor. On one hand, yes. On the other hand, back in pre-IO days, Stone Tanks were the Gods of tanking because of Granite armor and Granite armor only. I think to an extent, Granite armor is supposed to make or break Stone as a set because that's kind of like a piece of CoH history lol. I think keeping that intact by changing up Granite Armor would be awesome.

 

I disagree on Regen, though. MoG is the poster child for a unique IO mule.

Well WP, and Shield have a half crash, and Radiation also has a small one.

 

Stone, idk what to do with stone.  It's a set that works against itself.  Very odd.  And of course the elephant, T9 Granite makes half the set irrelevant.

 

MoG - haha

 

11 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

The mess that's currently on closed beta is seriously disgusting and I hope you'll not ignore but take what feedback you get and really act upon it this time.

what's happening there?

11 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Powers development should instead be going to giving us new powers or proliferating npcs powers, making new powers for incarnate and tf bosses to make them more challenging in hard mode trials. You could be giving us more difficulty options and those mentioned hard mode trials and that would give us the challenge we need instead of breaking everything.

like this

[WindDemon21]

5 hours ago, The Curator said:

whilst also reworking Titan Weapons, one of the most overperforming sets.

Nerf...

 

Personally this worries me a lot, though I have somewhat avoided TW in general cause I don't want it to spoil other sets too. I wouldn't want the set to change from what it is, as the mechanic can be fun and you WORK to make it pay off. If anything maybe just do a global 10% damage reduction on all TW attacks and call it a day.

 

5 hours ago, The Curator said:

Procs & PPM
Something we’ve recently started looking at is procs. We’re only scratching the surface here, but our goals are similar to that with powersets: Bringing each option towards a happy medium. One big topic that needs looking at specifically is PPM. This system was still in beta when the game shut down, so it never really graduated properly to the live servers, and never received any follow-up balance passes.

Please don't mess this up. Even now most procs I find annoying and only circumstantial, except those cases where you have to plan for those procs.

 

In general I'm not a fan of them at all being wholly unreliable, the PPM system at least allows you to calculate the odds and slot around it so that they can actually be useful. They are after all taking the slot of something else that could be used to another effect.

 

This makes me very nervous especially in the case of the scrapper, tanker, brute, defender, corruptor, stalker etc ATO procs which are key to those ATs and just wouldn't be the same if you couldn't rely on them as much. Also true for things like the gaussians proc in aim/bu type powers.

 

But please DO look at procs like the knockback proc on the Stupefy set and fix it so it is a kb-kd/chance for kd proc like the overwhelming force set has. Cause as it stands it's almost useless, nay WORSE to slot that to try to get the 5th bonus in Stupefy. And especially for powers like hand clap and lightning clap which need the kb-kd in them to make them non-detrimental but may also want that 3.75% ranged defense from Stupefy.

 

5 hours ago, The Curator said:

how +special buffs interact with long duration +def powers

You mean the literally ONLY real reason to get power boost!?!? Please do NOT mess with this, in addition to the fact that it should actually be broadened to work on recovery and regen abilities (currently it only works for heals and end abilities, it makes ZERO sense that it doesn't boost regen and recovery buffs as well).

[Neiska]

With regards to Titan Weapons, I think it only really outperforms or is OP on scrappers, but what about Tanks and Brutes? If they change it too much, then tanks and brutes wont take it either, which might as well be a scrapper only powerset at that point? (I don't know if it is OP on tankers/brutes, but I rarely ever see them. See far more TW scrappers than anything else.) I think if they gave it a recharge penalty instead of a damage penalty, that would be better for all 3 ATs overall wouldn't it?

 

I had my fingers crossed that they were going to look at the epic ATs - Soldiers, Widows, Warshades, and Peacebringers. I see fewer and fewer of any of them now. Compaired to the other ATs, the "epic" ATs really are anything but epic. Pretty sure I'm the only one in my SG still rocking the crabber spiderpack. ☹️

 

Crabbermind is still fun to play, but its probably the weakest of all my fully geared 50's.

 

Oh well, maybe next time around.

[WindDemon21]

Also please for the love of God finish the superior version of the Overwhelming Force set.

[Galaxy Brain]

@FUBARczar, I know about as much as the priority list as you when it comes to the HC team, but what I do know is that certain sets require more effort than others, and that can definitely change priorities.

 

There are generally two types of changes that occur in either direction when you look across the board: Numerical Change and Mechanical Change. 

 

Numerical Change is generally very easy to perform, and in terms of "dev time" can be very effecient. An example of a numerical change would be the Dominator Assault sets getting changes to their animation times / stats which then tweaked performance (1.8s > 1.5s, Recharge went from 8s to 12s to boost the damage per the forumla, etc, etc). Changes such as "lowered damage by X%, changed recharge by Y%, tweaked endurance by Z%" are all numerical changes that are both easy to implement and test, and if a set only needs these I could see them being lumped in with multiple other things at once (such as a new blaster set + other tweaks!)

 

Mechanical Change is the opposite where instead of turning dials, you are adding or replacing the existing dials for the set. An example of this would be the change to Snipe Powers and Tankers where the actual functionality changed rather than just the stats. This is much harder to plan and develop than simple value changes (comparatively), and requires a lot more thought and care. I would imagine that Super Strength would need changes such as this which would require nearly a whole patch just for it, as compared to tackling Numerical Changes that could be applied to a couple of sets.

 

Yes, more people do choose Super Strength over TW, but that could also be a symptom of this being a superhero game and one of the first things you think of is super strength. If you look at scrappers, Regen is incredibly popular too despite... you know lol. TW still places high in the AT's that get it, being the top Scrapper set and within the top 4/5 for Tanks and Brutes. It not being the blowaway most popular set does not save it from being worked on though, much like how say, Battle Axe not being the *least* picked Tanker set doesn't mean it should not receive buffs over the *least* picked option. It all depends on what would fit per patch IMO.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

With regards to Titan Weapons, I think it only really outperforms or is OP on scrappers, but what about Tanks and Brutes? If they change it too much, then tanks and brutes wont take it either, which might as well be a scrapper only powerset at that point? (I don't know if it is OP on tankers/brutes, but I rarely ever see them. See far more TW scrappers than anything else.) I think if they gave it a recharge penalty instead of a damage penalty, that would be better for all 3 ATs overall wouldn't it?

 

I had my fingers crossed that they were going to look at the epic ATs - Soldiers, Widows, Warshades, and Peacebringers. I see fewer and fewer of any of them now. Compaired to the other ATs, the "epic" ATs really are anything but epic. Pretty sure I'm the only one in my SG still rocking the crabber spiderpack. ☹️

 

Crabbermind is still fun to play, but its probably the weakest of all my fully geared 50's.

 

Oh well, maybe next time around.

I had a TW Brute on live, and have a Tank and Scrapper now.  TW on Tanks and Brutes are not OP.  I still prefer/play more non-TW on both.  The scrapper TW is a beast sure, but not everyone gets it to that level, just look at pylon numbers.   I've seen many people want to play but after they do they don't like it.  To each their own.  

 

That said a recharge penalty would not be good, it would penalize Tanks and Brutes more b/c it really is only scrappers that "over" perform.

[Ruin Mage]

I feel like some people need to chill in this thread and just vibe that we're getting information/talk. The real thing will be seeing how they execute the stuff mentioned here.

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

This has been discussed a little bit and is definitely something people are interested in looking at, but we've not currently got any plans (as there's a lot of things on the list of things people are interested in looking at 🙂 ).

 

Please leave the T9s alone. They're essential (and balanced!) in PVP, and not needed in PVE.

 

If you're adamant about tweaking Overload/Elude/Kuji-In Retsu/Power Surge/Unstoppable, then all you need to do is lessen the crash. (Similar to how the blaster T9's had their crashes removed.)

 

They don't need reinventing. They don't need replacing. Please don't listen to the people with 1000+ posts in the suggestions forum who play the forums more than the game.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Xanatos

[Gibotos101]

What about Sentinels? They need a damage boost and rework on the Inherent power. The way some of us has been "trying" to get around the weaker damage is through procs. If they reduce procs that will hurt the AT a lot.  

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Noyjitat said:

Eventually it will only be the volunteers playing if you continue to break and destroy our characters with what you feel is balanced. Not every player posts on forums, facebook or goes to playtests and eventually they find something they were enjoying is now useless to play  and then another character, and another and another is made useless. At that point they come on here and complain and see it gets them no where because the volunteers have spoken so its law. Don't be surprised when they quit.

I can't even with how short-sighted comments like these are.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Please leave the T9s alone. They're essential (and balanced!) in PVP, and not needed in PVE.

 

If you're adamant about tweaking Overload/Elude/Kuji-In Retsu/Power Surge/Unstoppable, then all you need to do is lessen the crash. (Similar to how the blaster T9's had their crashes removed.)

 

They don't need reinventing. They don't need replacing. Please don't listen to the people with 1000+ posts in the suggestions forum who play the forums more than the game.

they can stay the same in PvP then

[Xanatos]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

they can stay the same in PvP then

 

Not if they're being replaced.

[zenblack]

35 minutes ago, Neiska said:

With regards to Titan Weapons, I think it only really outperforms or is OP on scrappers, but what about Tanks and Brutes? If they change it too much, then tanks and brutes wont take it either, which might as well be a scrapper only powerset at that point? (I don't know if it is OP on tankers/brutes, but I rarely ever see them. See far more TW scrappers than anything else.) I think if they gave it a recharge penalty instead of a damage penalty, that would be better for all 3 ATs overall wouldn't it?

TW is the best performer on Tanks and probably on Brutes (since they are basically Scrappers with a Damage Bonus).

[Neiska]

5 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Please leave the T9s alone. They're essential (and balanced!) in PVP, and not needed in PVE.

 

If you're adamant about tweaking Overload/Elude/Kuji-In Retsu/Power Surge/Unstoppable, then all you need to do is lessen the crash. (Similar to how the blaster T9's had their crashes removed.)

 

They don't need reinventing. They don't need replacing. Please don't listen to the people with 1000+ posts in the suggestions forum who play the forums more than the game.

Just my opinion but, balancing powers in a majority PvE game for PvP reasons doesn't seem like a good idea.

[LQT]

6 hours ago, The Curator said:

Our overarching goal is to have every powerset / AT be viable and have a place in the game/Currently there’s a large amount of homogenization at the endgame

I would strongly request that while you aim for this point of balance it doesn't end up with the situation WoW did on certain classes where the different specs ended up being referred to as "blue mage"/"red mage"/"purple mage" when discussing what colour of attacks were being done. Keeping the powersets distinct enough that everyone doesn't end up as some form of grey nondescript if vital to maintaining a degree of identity that many games stumble upon when trying to address balance issues.
 

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

*wonders how many people will ignore this and/or get angry when something massively changes or gets scrapped.*

 

That said, I think the game's in good hands here, and look forward to what you guys do.

What's that, unfounded panic in the forums?! Now we're talking real CoX patch notes! Bring out the DOOM™!
 

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

But I wanted to suggest comic sans!   🙂

Well I was 4 hours late to make this joke :|
 

4 hours ago, Kanil said:

so when is fire blast gonna get nerfed if we're talking about overperforming sets

As everyone else said fire does nothing but damage. Every set has a secondary effect and for fire it's the DoT. This can actually put fire at weaker position as there are no IO sets that exist for this mechanic. Ice powers can slot slow IOs, Dark powers can slow Tohit debuff IOs, etc. Fire doesn't get that choice. It's just damage IO, power type IOs, and generics.

[Noyjitat]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I can't even with how short-sighted comments like these are.

Why is it short sighted because I won't keep quiet and accept every nerf and just be glad that I can play here? So what am I supposed to do when every power I like is nerfed and useless and when everyone I like playing with quits? Unlike you I'm not going to blindly accept change without voicing my opinion.

[FUBARczar]

7 hours ago, The Curator said:

In the near future we’re going to be rolling out improvements to Energy Melee, Trick Arrow and Blaster secondary sets

I hope that Energy melee at the very least get's the mechanic that Dominators have.  

 

And blaster secondary sets?  hmm if only Dark and Elec sustain powers weren't clicks.  Am I the only one who feels that way?