Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Bionic_Flea]

8 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

 If the goal is to keep ET "on a leash" by tying it to TF's recharge + animation time, then I don't see how the same effect can't be replicated by just leaving ET at its old 20 second recharge and keep the sped up animation, decoupling it from TF and achieving the same functional result.

 

All that really does is let people use ET to one-shot LTs or whatever faster and hardly does anything to change a chain against bosses or tougher enemies. Is it really such a big deal that EM could delete a single LT in 1 second every 20 seconds when everyone else is blasting so many AoEs the only things left standing are bosses anyway?

Two word response:  Global recharge.

[Draeth Darkstar]

While I get that some people dislike the "combo" effect, I'll disagree and say that I think it's very cool to give the set a little more depth.

[ForeverLaxx]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

@ForeverLaxx kind of have to separate what peeps be saying from Devs. It definitely discounts some of the anecdotal arguments. They got an idea, ran with it and this is where it's at.

I'm just pointing out that this "reigning in" effect doesn't seem to function in practice, if the words of players are to be believed. If the goal was to keep ET in check, then either it's not working as intended against the foes it matters on, or it's not really the reason Focus exists.

 

9 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Two word response:  Global recharge.

Three word rebuttal: Balanced around SOs.

 

The base values are always supposed to be balanced around SOs as that's where all the formulae are derived from to determine power baseline functionality. If we start hamstringing and stripping down sets because of potential set bonuses, then this game will have died for me a second time.

Edited October 26, 2020 by ForeverLaxx

[Super Atom]

It's a multi-stage balance. If you're doing instant ET everytime, you're unlikely doing increased AOE damage everytime. If you're doing increased AOE damage all the time, you're unlikely doing stronger ST. Repeat repeat repeat. It's a self-balance system that delivers stronger ST, stronger AoE, without doing both at the same time causing over performance. Going only for one in either direction keeps the set in limbo of being too weak in a specific area, like it or not the game as evolved to a point where a sets AoE capabilities absolutely factor into its viability.

 

Keeping it centered around SO's is a good starting point, but keeping IO's in mind is also important. You can't let IO's make something run wild because a gigantic portion of the game from low to high levels have IO's in them.

 

Eventually people will need to move past 2005 City of Heroes. It's long gone and unless those other guys do it, It's never coming back.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bionic_Flea]

Unfortunately, they have to design around both an SO build as well as cutting edge builds.  They can't make something that's OK with SOs but becomes the proverbial "I win" button with the right build.  *shrug* 

 

My condolences on your loss.

[summers]

If they were really balancing around SOs the Tanker changes probably wouldn't've happened, since Brutes don't have the survivability without them.

 

I just feel there's a lot of mantra stuck in 2009:

 

1) Cottage rule

2) Balanced around SOs

[Captain Powerhouse]

18 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

The base values are always supposed to be balanced around SOs as that's where all the formulae are derived from to determine power baseline functionality.

 

That is not entirely accurate, and was not even back early on live. The actual rule is that players would be able to complete all solo content, in 1x+0, with an SO build, no temps, and pools being optional (edit oh and no inspirations.) Basically just primary+secondary+SOs. Believe it or there where cases that required buffs because that low standard could not be met (reason Defenders got Vigilance's solo +DMG buff, for example.)

 

The devs always looked at the potential impact of high recharge, and there still are remnants that show how they would evaluate the impact of hasten on x or y power, not that it would be needed given they told everyone the reason powers like Unstoppable have the recharge they have is precisely to prevent they ever became perma, even at the recharge cap.

[ABlueThingy]

 

9 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm just pointing out that this "reigning in" effect doesn't seem to function in practice, if the words of players are to be believed. If the goal was to keep ET in check, then either it's not working as intended against the foes it matters on, or it's not really the reason Focus exists.

 

If you want an answer you might try working out what the ideal rotation would be if ET wasn't locked behind TF for what an absolutely maxed out IO build could do.

 

You'd be looking at...what? A 3 power rotation with a DPS that required exponents to calculate it? Single digit pylon times?

 

9 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Three word rebuttal: Balanced around SOs.

 

The base values are always supposed to be balanced around SOs as that's where all the formulae are derived from to determine power baseline functionality. If we start hamstringing and stripping down sets because of potential set bonuses, then this game will have died for me a second time.

 

That has never been true. What the Devs on live said was they would never set the baseline of the game's difficulty so high that you would need IOs to compete.  That at baseline difficulty you would only need SOs.

 

Using that to argue that the Homecoming team can't consider what high end builds can do when adjusting the strength of powersets is not keeping with the spirit or the letter of the so called "rule"

 

[Troo]

20 minutes ago, summers said:

If they were really balancing around SOs the Tanker changes probably wouldn't've happened, since Brutes don't have the survivability without them.

 

I just feel there's a lot of mantra stuck in 2009:

 

1) Cottage rule

2) Balanced around SOs

Cottage Rule isn't a rule. It's like power creep, something to be mindful of.

 

85% of the game is pre level 50. That some people skip that content is no reason to ignore it exists and to break things there. Shorthand = Balance around SOs

• Should that be shifted to balance around regular IOs.. sure I'm on board. Just know that may have the opposite effect.
• Example: Two +5 rech / dmg / heal doing essentially the same work as three is a shift and has power creep that might need to be addressed.

 

[sniped but I'll leave it]

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[ForeverLaxx]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

That is not entirely accurate, and was not even back early on live. The actual rule is that players would be able to complete all solo content, in 1x+0, with an SO build, no temps, and pools being optional. Basically just primary+secondary+SOs. Believe it or there where cases that required buffs because that low standard could not be met (reason Defenders got Vigilance's solo +DMG buff, for example.)

 

The devs always looked at the potential impact of high recharge, and there still are remnants that show how they would evaluate the impact of hasten on x or y power, not that it would be needed given they told everyone the reason powers like Unstoppable have the recharge they have is precisely to prevent they ever became perma, even at the recharge cap.

Maybe so, but that was what they liked to say. Keeping certain T9s from being permanent stopped the entire previous suite of powers in the powerset from being outmoded and made sense to me (though it's why I don't play Stone Armor -- it breaks this by design for some reason). In a post set bonus world, I question the need to keep those powers on such long cooldowns anyway. You can't permaHasten without sets anymore, sets totally eclipse old permaHasten anyway, and people build so much +Defense that they don't need those T9s unless they're being used as set mules. That's about as far as I've let set IOs push my boundary of "don't play if you can't optimize" because so far it hasn't stopped me from enjoying the game. When I have to make tricked-out builds because a set was "designed" to only be functional when optimized is when I step away and never come back.

 

But I'm getting off topic and leave it there.

[ForeverLaxx]

17 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Unfortunately, they have to design around both an SO build as well as cutting edge builds.  They can't make something that's OK with SOs but becomes the proverbial "I win" button with the right build.  *shrug* 

 

My condolences on your loss.

I'm not asking for IO performance on an SO budget. I just don't want unusable chains to become the norm unless I'm pushing 200% global recharge.

 

You can keep your condolences.

[summers]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Cottage Rule isn't a rule. It's like power creep, something to be mindful of.

 

85% of the game is pre level 50. That some people skip that content is no reason to ignore it exists and to break things there. Shorthand = Balance around SOs

• Should that be shifted to balance around regular IOs.. sure I'm on board. Just know that may have the opposite effect.
• Example: Two +5 rech / dmg / heal doing essentially the same work as three is a shift and has power creep that might need to be addressed.

 

I think it serves a very practical purpose which reduces the likelihood of requiring respecifications with changes, as well as not upsetting paying customers who are positively inclined towards that particular power.

 

My point however is more in the 'mantra' part, since you'll regularly find people who are vehemently opposed to any and all changes and become quite outraged by it.

 

It's something to think about, but it should not stifle change where change is good.

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Hey everyone
 
Thank you for the feedback so far.
 
I completely understand that some players ardently dislike conditional mechanics, many of the early iterations to Energy Melee changes tried their best to avoid them, but in the end, Energy Transfer is a special mechanic power that is ridiculously hard to balance without a more elaborate approach.
 
For those concerned about other legacy sets, I can’t promise specifics, but I will do my best to avoid complex combos. Super Strength, Fiery Melee, Stone Melee, they won’t be getting combos. In the interest of full disclosure, Broad Sword might be getting a purely additive Parry focused mechanic, but that is in extremely early draft stages.
 
Now, I am not asking anyone to stop posting feedback, but agree to disagree, let others express their discontent and feedback, and focus on your own personal feedback, not theirs. It will make the job of going through everyone’s feedback much smoother.

 

So i tried EM on scrapper and stalker.

 

The set is balanced, the DPS is kinda not bad, the clearing time is good. Nothing to mention.

And i think it's the real issue that i feel till yesterday during the 10+ hours i spent with both EM stalker and scrapper : it's boring.

Why play 2 classes make for fun critical and big bursts with an attack set ... with no critical. Sure the Stalker has very very good dps but all is flat.

 

Flat and Boring.

 

EM (on scrapper mainly) feels ... average good. Yeah it's the word, average good at best.

No way to unleashed insane burst : it's clean, average and well balanced. But EM still has lost the crazyness and fun of his former glory. Tbh and with all due respects, i cannot stop thinking that you were too shy and / or afraid by something, maybe to create a new TW like monster, i dont know.

 

Why spending so much of your precious time to proliferate an attack set with no offensive critical on a class with ATO and innate ability fully based on... critical ?

 

In a world of Rend Armor, Crushing Uppercut with 3 stacks, Greater psi Blade, Clobber (and i forget a lot) criting with almost no limits, why keeping energy tranfer with a healing ability we dont need ? I 100% agree that energy mélée have the job done and it's even impressive the work done on EM.

But i cant stop feeling that it lacks this little something that made players make :"WoW what the f...k was that, this was violent !"

 

You did a good job, but being a bit more "crazy" seems necessary to me. Dont get me wrong, i dont cry for more damage or something, but more burst, more fun, more "omg" moments.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Tsuko

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, summers said:

I think it serves a very practical purpose which reduces the likelihood of requiring respecifications with changes, as well as not upsetting paying customers who are positively inclined towards that particular power.

 

My point however is more in the 'mantra' part, since you'll regularly find people who are vehemently opposed to any and all changes and become quite outraged by it.

 

It's something to think about, but it should not stifle change where change is good.

My main is and has been a Energy Melee/Regeneration.. Change sucks. Nerfs suck.. but alas, change does happen.

 

All we can do is hold out hope that a dev might fix something that got broke.. but more often that not, we got a different sub optimal change. No offense to the current devs, we love you.

[summers]

3 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

snip

 

I can't help but agree. It seems everything has to follow a formula, but the most interesting ones are the powers that break the mould.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

Why spending so much of your precious time to proliferate an attack set with no offensive critical on a class with ATO and innate ability fully based on... critical ?

There's one power in the set that doesn't do more damage on a critical, you make it sound like every power in the set is like that.

[Troo]

34 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

And i think it's the real issue that i feel till yesterday during the 10+ hours i spent with both EM stalker and scrapper : it's boring.

Are you saying the beta version feels spicier or boring? I may have missed some context.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[skoryy]

9 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

"WoW what the f...k was that, this was violent !"

That was me when I two-shot a +3 Fake Nemmie with TF -> ET yesterday.

[summers]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

There's one power in the set that doesn't do more damage on a critical, you make it sound like every power in the set is like that.

I've tested the set on Brutes so I didn't know about this. Are you saying that ET crits? It looked like from the patch notes it instead heals you?

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, summers said:

I've tested the set on Brutes so I didn't know about this. Are you saying that ET crits? It looked like from the patch notes it instead heals you?

Yes, it heals you on a critical. It's affected by the Scrapper ATOs and whatnot.

[summers]

Just now, Vanden said:

Yes, it heals you on a critical. It's affected by the Scrapper ATOs and whatnot.

I'm sorry I don't know which question of mine you answered?

 

Does ET critical and do double damage?

[skoryy]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:33 AM, Jimmy said:

 Energy Transfer

• Energy Transfer self damage is now 10% of base max HP for all ATs, and no longer costs any endurance
• Damage is now 100% energy
• (Stalker / Scrapper only) When this power crits it will now not only avoid the self-damage, but actually heals the caster for 10% of base Max HP.
• Recharge lowered from 20s to 10s
• If used with Energy Focus: Cast time reduced from 2.67s to 1.0s

The scrapper / stalker crit's not negated on ET.  You get crit damage and bonus healing.

Edited October 26, 2020 by skoryy

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, summers said:

I'm sorry I don't know which question of mine you answered?

 

Does ET critical and do double damage?

Energy Transfer doesn't do extra damage on a critical, instead it heals you. But it IS implemented as a critical, the chance is affected by Scrappers' ATOs that boost criticals, and on Stalkers it scales with team size.

[Hew]

24 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Crap.. maybe that is accurate. That gave me a little bit of a sad feeling.

 

The spiciness of being able to go in a lot of directions and being funneled into the predetermined..

You missed this from that quote which you quoted:

"And i think it's the real issue that i feel till yesterday"

 

Unless I am missing something, it seems pretty clear that Tsuko, whom you quoted, _actually likes the changes to EM_, and that previously felt that before the changes, it was a pretty boring set.

 

I could be wrong, and there might have been some bits of language missing from what Tsuko had written. However, considering Tsuko's engagement in, you know, actually testing, I think them enjoying the set is closer to the mark than them feeling "funneled".

 

 

 

 

Edit: Hm, reading back over another of Tsuko's posts looks like an appreciation that the set works well, but a complaint that you don't get an OMGWTFBBQ crit type action on stalkers/scrappers exists. Mixing of tenses in the original language without context from the original post I think complicates the true nature of what the original post was saying in context of the response.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Hew

[skoryy]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Energy Transfer doesn't do extra damage on a critical, instead it heals you. But it IS implemented as a critical, the chance is affected by Scrappers' ATOs that boost criticals, and on Stalkers it scales with team size.

I'll have to test tomorrow, but I'm fairly certain that scrapper ET still does crit damage.