Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[JayboH]

I always asked for the cooldown to be just a little shorter on EMP but I am fine with the rest.

[Skygoddess]

EMP really sucks as a T9 power.  It doesn't affect the caster, long recharge, short hold duration.  I don't understand why it only gives status protection within the mobs and not the caster when usually the ATs that get close to it are the ones that already have status protection (ex. Tanks, brutes, etc.), and let not forget the long recharge of 4 min!  Most fights don't even take more than 2 min.

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

EDIT: I would say if it's not going to be a 2-minute perma buff then it should DEFINITELY effect the caster AND be usable while mezzed.

That's not the design purpose of the power, or the design purpose behind adding the Faraday Cage effect.  The Faraday Cage effect is there to give EMP Arrow utility outside of AV combat, and the decision not to allow it to affect the caster was because the set doesn't inherently support players entering or using it in melee range, as there are no heals or regeneration buffs.

 

Also, with common SOs or common IOs, no Hasten and no Incarnate recharge buffs of any kind, the down time on the buff is only ~30s.  If you're using IO sets, Hasten and Incarnate buffs, you can push the recharge time as low as ~70s, which is beyond perma-.

 

As an exclusively and necessarily solo player, I'm fine with it not affecting the caster.  It meets the design goals and purposes, it gives me a reason to use it outside of Portal Jockey pursuit or a panic button and it improves the lives of my fellow TAs who can team.

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

That's not the design purpose of the power, or the design purpose behind adding the Faraday Cage effect.  The Faraday Cage effect is there to give EMP Arrow utility outside of AV combat, and the decision not to allow it to affect the caster was because the set doesn't inherently support players entering or using it in melee range, as there are no heals or regeneration buffs.

 

Also, with common SOs or common IOs, no Hasten and no Incarnate recharge buffs of any kind, the down time on the buff is only ~30s.  If you're using IO sets, Hasten and Incarnate buffs, you can push the recharge time as low as ~70s, which is beyond perma-.

 

As an exclusively and necessarily solo player, I'm fine with it not affecting the caster.  It meets the design goals and purposes, it gives me a reason to use it outside of Portal Jockey pursuit or a panic button and it improves the lives of my fellow TAs who can team.

It’s also not going to effect most ranged teammates, who need the buffs more than the melee anyway.

[Super Homer]

But it makes it safer to enter melee range, when available. Some players my skip them, but almost all characters have access to powers that can be used in melee range.

[Luminara]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It’s also not going to effect most ranged teammates, who need the buffs more than the melee anyway.

 

Use it on critters near the squishies.

 

Look, at this point, EMP Arrow is essentially a T9 plus a T5.  It's EMP Arrow plus Faraday Cage at the point of impact, with the caveat being that it only affects teammates/pets.  It has to have that limitation to balance it in regard to Faraday Cage, the Electrical Affinity power.  Balance between sets matters as much as balance within sets, and this version of EMP Arrow is pushing the envelope as it is.  It's one step away from shitting on Electrical Affinity, which is what it would be doing if it were a full port of Faraday Cage crowbarred into EMP Arrow.

 

If you don't think this balance measure is acceptable, make a viable proposal for an alternative.  Seriously, I'd love to see something improve the solo functionality of EMP Arrow.

[Liberty]

On the PvP side of things, this leaves TA insanely overtuned.  It was already a top tier disruption set.  Doubling the duration of the -jump - fly with still no counterplay to those mechanics is bad for business.  Giving it a weaken style power on the same cycle time with double the duration of weaken is pretty oppressive (and it now affects absorb) limiting the counter play of being able to play elec potentially against psn to mitigate the weaken effects somewhat.   

 

More +healing resistance in PVP is always going to be bad until we get a way to get -healing resistance outside of incarnate abilities from some kind of support set or something.

 

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Use it on critters near the squishies.

 

Look, at this point, EMP Arrow is essentially a T9 plus a T5.  It's EMP Arrow plus Faraday Cage at the point of impact, with the caveat being that it only affects teammates/pets.  It has to have that limitation to balance it in regard to Faraday Cage, the Electrical Affinity power.  Balance between sets matters as much as balance within sets, and this version of EMP Arrow is pushing the envelope as it is.  It's one step away from shitting on Electrical Affinity, which is what it would be doing if it were a full port of Faraday Cage crowbarred into EMP Arrow.

 

If you don't think this balance measure is acceptable, make a viable proposal for an alternative.  Seriously, I'd love to see something improve the solo functionality of EMP Arrow.

That makes sense.

Would it be possible to add a small self buff that is caster only? Perhaps +Recovery +Regen +Status Res (not protection)?

[Captain Powerhouse]

Clarification about Glue Arrow:

The power should be a location targeted power, but due to an error only the Controller version is doing this right now. Next patch that will be fixed.

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

Clarification about Glue Arrow:

The power should be a location targeted power, but due to an error only the Controller version is doing this right now. Next patch that will be fixed.

 

Will it then impact critters that run into the patch? Pardon me if this has already been answered.

[Luminara]

21 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Clarification about Glue Arrow:

The power should be a location targeted power, but due to an error only the Controller version is doing this right now. Next patch that will be fixed.

 

It was like that in the I5 beta, it was changed because juggling between location- and critter-targeted was counter-productive and problematic.  Macros don't show recharge times, which will force players who use macros to set up two trays, one for macros and one for actual powers to display their recharge status.  Key binds, the other option, force players to change hand position away from standard positioning (WASD + number keys), which leads to errors in power usage or unintended movement when the wrong keys are pressed.  Neither of these are negligible concerns, and were the primary reasoning behind changing to mostly critter-targeted powers.  Moving back to a heavier mix of location- and critter-targeted powers reintroduces these unresolved issues in usability, something you should consider before finalizing this change.

[Luminara]

32 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Would it be possible to add a small self buff that is caster only? Perhaps +Recovery +Regen +Status Res (not protection)?

 

Possible, certainly.  But would it be balanced?  We're still talking about a T9 with almost all of the benefits of a unique and desirable T5 tacked on.  I suspect that any caster buffs would be necessarily small and not open to enhancing, which would make them of comparatively low value.  A +Recovery buff would certainly be useful, even unenhanced, but with the way regeneration works, I suspect that the amount which could be added wouldn't bring anything worthwhile to the power (meaning, it would have to be 100% or higher, or enhanceable, to have any measurable effect).  Status resistance would certainly be a reasonable addition, since it doesn't prevent mez, but as with regeneration, it's not really meaningful in small amounts.  Shaving 1-2 seconds off of a status effect doesn't help squishies.

 

I think moving the Faraday Cage effect to the cast point, rather than the impact point, would address the issue of applying it to the teammates who need it most without forcing the TA to choose between debuffing AV regeneration or helping struggling squishies.  It would still have to exclude the caster, in fairness, but applying a small buff of some kind to the caster wouldn't be too much of a compromise.  If the nanite cloud, or magical spell, or mutant pheromones, or whatever, can affect those around the caster, some small effect would be explicable as aiding the caster as well.  Recovery would be the most useful in the numerical range I would expect, as even small increases to that are typically helpful and worthwhile, and TA does still have the problem of having to reapply every debuff, rather than use any toggles, which can eat into the Endurance bar quickly.  Having the T9 power help when it's most needed, during long fights when the TA might be struggling to keep the blue bar from bottoming out, would be reasonable.  I can't envision the small amount +Regen or status resistance that would be likely as being worth the time or effort, though, and I don't imagine CP would add either in an amount which would be significant due to the balance problem.

 

That would be my proposal.  Spawn the Faraday Cage around the TA, continue to exclude the TA, but add a small Recovery buff which affects the TA only.  That's probably not enough to satisfy everyone here, but I think it addresses the raised issues well enough and doesn't step on Elec Affin's toes.  Some extra regen and/or status protection would be nice, but I've played with those numbers often enough to know that they're really only useful when they're big, and big isn't going to happen here, in my estimation.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

That would be my proposal.  Spawn the Faraday Cage around the TA, continue to exclude the TA, but add a small Recovery buff which affects the TA only.  That's probably not enough to satisfy everyone here, but I think it addresses the raised issues well enough and doesn't step on Elec Affin's toes.  Some extra regen and/or status protection would be nice, but I've played with those numbers often enough to know that they're really only useful when they're big, and big isn't going to happen here, in my estimation.

Works for me.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

Although to be honest it makes a lot more sense to keep it at the location of the Arrow.

I think just a small unenhanceable Self +Recovery is enough.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Wavicle

[arkieboy72472]

16 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Clarification about Glue Arrow:

The power should be a location targeted power, but due to an error only the Controller version is doing this right now. Next patch that will be fixed.

 

I think this is a nerf in the sense that for flying enemies, you can no longer target them. It makes sense either way as a power, but my concern is 1) again, flying enemies (and there isnt a lot, but still) and 2) as a TA/Arch, that makes like 5 powers that are all location based. It is nice on Emp Arrow, and makes sense on the -res arrow, and again makes sense on Oil Slick.....but for glue, if this happens, nothing in the set can deal with flyers except the t1. Granted i like the T1. It is just that if you do this to this power, the -fly no longer makes sense. More times than not, being able to place my arrows is great, but this would be the outlier. I guess if the majority of people want this than so be it. I will admit it is a pain to tab through bad guys to find just the right one to glue stick.

Edited November 1, 2020 by arkieboy72472

[Monos King]

Changes are still looking great, just wanted to highlight a few things.

 

1. EMP as Faraday Cage. 
   • Not sure this change has any real performance impact for the better, but any Defender's can comment on this once EMP Field is fixed, and I'll be sure to review. While you are now able to determine whether or not you wish to use it before battle as a buff, or inciting it as a debuff, the choice isn't actually there because it is a field. If it functions exactly like Faraday Cage, then there is no choice seeing as even if you use it before battle (away from enemies) in order to engage the enemies your allies will just end up leaving the field. If it is more like Glue Arrow, where it actually applies a lasting buff to everyone who even enters the Cage, then the power is perfect now. I would have only one wish of it then which is
2. May need some in set +recovery
   • MMs will be spamming the powers without question to keep pets alive, it comes with the playstyle. Trick Arrow is not the first set to be active in nature (Poison, Ice, Kinetic, Elec Affin) but the majority of those sets offer some degree of help in-set with endurance issues, and (aside from Elec Affin) does so well. TA is quite manageable in terms of endurance right now, but the MM endurance penalties are not at play yet. As a location select power, performance shifter no longer goes off reliably, so while I reserve judgements until everything is working as intended, it is worth noting.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Trick Arrow is currently a very good set and great debuffer, so great job guys. Here are two totally unnecessary suggestions I think would be cool.

 

1. Glue Arrow Interaction with Cold Damage
   • The visual below is awesome (especially with the fire in the Oil Slick) and imagined a sort of master of the elements idea. I think it'd be cool if Glue Arrow interacted with cold damage to create a Slime Pit, which just lowers recovery or something of that nature. It would come with a new effect over the glue.
2. EMP Field interaction with Robot henchmen
   • Since the EMP itself harms robots more, we could make the EMP Field empower them. I'm only thinking something like a small damage and to-hit buff for a short time, or maybe just slightly higher +res.

 

Everything is looking up, great news for TA. And this visual is awesome.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Monos King

[WindDemon21]

17 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It was like that in the I5 beta, it was changed because juggling between location- and critter-targeted was counter-productive and problematic.  Macros don't show recharge times, which will force players who use macros to set up two trays, one for macros and one for actual powers to display their recharge status.  Key binds, the other option, force players to change hand position away from standard positioning (WASD + number keys), which leads to errors in power usage or unintended movement when the wrong keys are pressed.  Neither of these are negligible concerns, and were the primary reasoning behind changing to mostly critter-targeted powers.  Moving back to a heavier mix of location- and critter-targeted powers reintroduces these unresolved issues in usability, something you should consider before finalizing this change.

Except you CAN do this, where the same can't be said to use it as a location based power. Distuption arrow is location based, oil slick is location based, and they work fine with TA as such.

 

Earth control: quicksand, earthquake, and volcanic gasses are location based, and stone cages, stalagmites, salt crystals, fossilized are all target based, and the set the does fine.

 

Don't remove a complete functionality for a power that SHOULD be location based because you don't want to deal the location. I use the target binds sometimes too for location powers, but other times I need a location power for it's location, and I and many others manage just fine.

 

You should MORE complain that macros should show cooldowns, and the target location bind be cleaned up on terrain, but not that this shouldn't be a location based power, which by your logic, ALL location based powers should be switched to target based which should definitely not be the case.

[WindDemon21]

13 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

I think this is a nerf in the sense that for flying enemies, you can no longer target them. It makes sense either way as a power, but my concern is 1) again, flying enemies (and there isnt a lot, but still) and 2) as a TA/Arch, that makes like 5 powers that are all location based. It is nice on Emp Arrow, and makes sense on the -res arrow, and again makes sense on Oil Slick.....but for glue, if this happens, nothing in the set can deal with flyers except the t1. Granted i like the T1. It is just that if you do this to this power, the -fly no longer makes sense. More times than not, being able to place my arrows is great, but this would be the outlier. I guess if the majority of people want this than so be it. I will admit it is a pain to tab through bad guys to find just the right one to glue stick.

Which is ALREADY the case. If you currently use glue arrow on a flying enemy it will say "target in air" and not fire off. At least as a location based power, you can put it on the ground between you (or if they are close enough to the ground right on them), and as they come to you get caught in its radius. You ALREADY have to use entangle arrow first...

Edited November 1, 2020 by WindDemon21

[drbuzzard]

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It was like that in the I5 beta, it was changed because juggling between location- and critter-targeted was counter-productive and problematic.  Macros don't show recharge times, which will force players who use macros to set up two trays, one for macros and one for actual powers to display their recharge status.  Key binds, the other option, force players to change hand position away from standard positioning (WASD + number keys), which leads to errors in power usage or unintended movement when the wrong keys are pressed.  Neither of these are negligible concerns, and were the primary reasoning behind changing to mostly critter-targeted powers.  Moving back to a heavier mix of location- and critter-targeted powers reintroduces these unresolved issues in usability, something you should consider before finalizing this change.

Built up a TA/Rad blast defender yesterday and gave it a bit of a test drive. I did a simple rounds of clearing the walls in cimerora then doing the prove yourself mission from the repeat mission guy (+1x8). I can't really say I got a proper feel for the total debuff capacity since I wasn't fighting any AVs, and much of what's in there really needs a hard target. Mostly I used a lot of disruption arrow and oil slick. 

 

But as to why I included this excerpt- there's simply too many location powers in the set now, and it will make playing it a royal pita. That would be one of the reasons I didn't use a whole lot of the powers because of the bother. I had them, but rarely deployed them. Oil slick arrow was on the shift+lclick bind, so I used it whenever it was up, and I will willing to put on disruption arrow, but I just skipped the rest most (tested all at least once, but for actual use- not really). 

[Hopestar]

As a T9, EMP Arrow still really needs a boost. 300 seconds is too long for what it does and doesn't do. I'd go with what @Monos King listed and a shorter cooldown because enemies will inevitably get out of it in a team environment.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Built up a TA/Rad blast defender yesterday and gave it a bit of a test drive. I did a simple rounds of clearing the walls in cimerora then doing the prove yourself mission from the repeat mission guy (+1x8). I can't really say I got a proper feel for the total debuff capacity since I wasn't fighting any AVs, and much of what's in there really needs a hard target. Mostly I used a lot of disruption arrow and oil slick. 

 

But as to why I included this excerpt- there's simply too many location powers in the set now, and it will make playing it a royal pita. That would be one of the reasons I didn't use a whole lot of the powers because of the bother. I had them, but rarely deployed them. Oil slick arrow was on the shift+lclick bind, so I used it whenever it was up, and I will willing to put on disruption arrow, but I just skipped the rest most (tested all at least once, but for actual use- not really). 

Have you tried /bind *key* powexeclocation target?

Is 4 really too many? Is there another set with that many? Earth Control has 3 right? Another set I'm not thinking of?

 

[oedipus_tex]

Thanks again for continuing to work on this set!

 

Location based powers are generally better than enemy-targeted powers. They can be cast around corners, where enemy powers have to have line of sight. Given this is a "sneaky archer" set I consider adding more corner-casting a big plus.

 

 

RE: EMP Arrow casting Faraday Cage

I had a chance to try this out. I salute the return of the cage. Thanks for that! 

 

Unfortunately I'm less sold on it not affecting the caster, just for logistic reasons. It just feels... strange... for it not to work on the caster, because all similar powers do. 

 

I don't think making it affect the caster would be overpowered considering the many limitations of this power. It would mainly mean the TA player has full time personal mezz protection for AV fights--however, it also means to take advantage of the protection they need to stay close-ish to the AV because this power is also the source of their -Regen. I like the strategy that goes into deciding where and when to place the field. It's a very different power from "real" Faraday Cage, which has a 32 second recharge, better Resist numbers, and breaks the user out of their current mezz. In contrast the TA player would be limited to wherever they set up camp--and that's fine.

Edited November 1, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

I'm going to personally disagree that ground target Glue Arrow is a bad change.

 

With this change you can now corner-cast Glue Arrow > Disruption Arrow > EMP Arrow (if you choose to throw that in there). Glue keeps the enemies from chasing you down while you lay down your debuffs. If you happen to be Ice Blast you can finish this off with a corner-cast Blizzard.

 

IMO Glue is much stronger under these new rules and more sensical for a set like Trick Arrow.

[Wavicle]

While I think @Luminara's point about the change away from location based Glue was a good one AT THE TIME. I would argue that with the rest of the improvements to the set, and changes to the game more generally, it is NOW better to have it be location based.

[Emperor Cole]

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

Glue Arrow Interaction with Cold Damage

• The visual below is awesome (especially with the fire in the Oil Slick) and imagined a sort of master of the elements idea. I think it'd be cool if Glue Arrow interacted with cold damage to create a Slime Pit, which just lowers recovery or something of that nature. It would come with a new effect over the glue.

Love this idea. It should have a watery effect on top of the glue area.