Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[golstat2003]

On 11/8/2020 at 3:48 PM, oedipus_tex said:

The change to EMP Arrow has catapulted this set into one of the most interesting and fun powersets in the game. Truly great work.

 

The Faraday Cage summoned by EMP Arrow is interesting because it technically gives perma-mezz protection. But in actual practice, it creates a much more interesting situation where to take advantage of it, you need to have certain strategies. The fact that this power also is a Hold and your source of -Regen adds to the chess game. EMP Arrow was one of those powers that was always going to be tricky to balance, but I think you nailed it in a very interesting way.

 

What I like best is how the set now "feels." Before the feel was "use some debuffs that happen to look like arrows." Now it's "deploy arrows that do a variety of interesting things." Even small changes like "able to fire Glue Arrow around corners" have really turned around how this set plays.

Oh?

OH?

OH?

 

Guess I have a new alt for live to make. 😄 

[csr]

14 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Depends on your build.

 

I need the minus -def and I will take any extra -tohit, because I am soloing 4x8 on the beta server.

 

If you have a primary or secondary with slows, then Glue Arrow seems like overkill.

 

If you have an high accuracy build, then maybe Acid Arrow is overkill.

 

Keep in mind that at lower levels the -def will be very helpful for poorly slotted teams. Think Sky Raider force field generators.

That's not just dependent on your build, but on the play context too.  The -Def can certainly be useful in some situations.  If you hit with it.  It's not autohit like Radiation Infection.  It has to hit and it has base Acc.  So you're assertion that it's very helpful for poorly slotted teams has to assume that it's the one power that isn't poorly slotted for Acc.  It's also relatively slow to cast (1.83s).  If it had a 1.16s cast like many of the other TA powers, and a base Acc of 1.2x, then I might have found more use for it.  But probably not.  Because its three effects - tiny DoT, -Def and -Special - are just too weak or too infrequently useful.  That you were able to find a use for it in a low-Acc proc-monster build fighting +4s doesn't make it good in a more general context.

 

One of the things that really hurts is that the -Special scales with the Purple Patch.  Also, half of Flash Arrow's -ToHit is unresistable, and so isn't boosted by lowering the target's -ToHit Defuff Res with the -Special.  So against +4s on a Def my calculations say that's another 1.38% -ToHit from Acid Arrow before Flash Arrow.  That's 19.2% from the -Special after the Purple Patch times the 9,375% resistable DeBuff times the 0.48 scaling from the Purple Patch on the Debuff itself times 1.60 for enhancement (just to use a roundish number).  [Edit: add in that this bonus -ToHit only works against Minions.]  Not exactly sterling.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr

[Wavicle]

Yea, Acid Arrow is the one power that is now MORE skippable. Not a good place.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, csr said:

That's not just dependent on your build, but on the play context too.  The -Def can certainly be useful in some situations.  If you hit with it.  It's not autohit like Radiation Infection.  It has to hit and it has base Acc.  So you're assertion that it's very helpful for poorly slotted teams has to assume that it's the one power that isn't poorly slotted for Acc.  It's also relatively slow to cast (1.83s).  If it had a 1.16s cast like many of the other TA powers, and a base Acc of 1.2x, then I might have found more use for it.  But probably not.  Because its three effects - tiny DoT, -Def and -Special - are just too weak or too infrequently useful.  That you were able to find a use for it in a low-Acc proc-monster build fighting +4s doesn't make it good in a more general context.

 

One of the things that really hurts is that the -Special scales with the Purple Patch.  Also, half of Flash Arrow's -ToHit is unresistable, and so isn't boosted by lowering the target's -ToHit Defuff Res with the -Special.  So against +4s on a Def my calculations say that's another 1.38% -ToHit from Acid Arrow before Flash Arrow.  That's 19.2% from the -Special after the Purple Patch times the 9,375% resistable DeBuff times the 0.48 scaling from the Purple Patch on the Debuff itself times 1.60 for enhancement (just to use a roundish number).  Not exactly sterling.

The -special scaling against purple has been lackluster. For instance, it had no practical effect on an even con sapper, which has good endurance drain resists.

 

2+ TA players could make -special useful. I can already see all TA teams, like there are all Fire/Rad corruptor teams.

 

I just don't want the -def to go away. I think it will be useful in many contexts, solo, exp'ed down, or herding newbies at high levels. The -def will allow the lowbies to hit the +4 or +5 in DA radios I like to run.

 

As for the cast time, it's not a big deal. I can stand in the middle of a group after FA. AA->GA->PSA->OSA->DA in under 7 seconds. Let's call it 10 second all said an done. Then it's Hail of Bullets flaming death time.

 

I used bind powexec_location to get them out that fast.

 

I don't know why AA has a 1.83 cast time. I wouldn't complain if was dropped to 1.16 like others. It's still very quick.

 

You want a slow cast time, let's talk about Hail of Bullets 4.17 second cast time!

Edited November 12, 2020 by KaizenSoze

[Wavicle]

Maybe add a -End Over Time component and lower the cast time?

 

I’m trying to think of other debuffs to add that the set doesn’t already have.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Wavicle

[xl8]

•  Flash Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible

Can some1 clarify, the -perception is still irresistible?

[Bopper]

32 minutes ago, xl8 said:

•  Flash Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible

Can some1 clarify, the -perception is still irresistible?

Half of the to-hit debuff is irresistible.  Also, its not 15%, its more like 18.75% (defender numbers)

[xl8]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Half of the to-hit debuff is irresistible.  Also, its not 15%, its more like 18.75% (defender numbers)

I get that. I'm specifically talking about the mobs being "blinded". Is this still irresistible? There's no mention of it in the notes and sometimes these changes affect parts of the powers in unintended ways. Has any1 tested it in beta?

[csr]

11 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

The -special scaling against purple has been lackluster. For instance, it had no practical effect on an even con sapper, which has good endurance drain resists.

 

I don't know why AA has a 1.83 cast time. I wouldn't complain if was dropped to 1.16 like others. It's still very quick.

 

You want a slow cast time, let's talk about Hail of Bullets 4.17 second cast time!

As I said, the 1.83s is relatively slow.  Slow compared to other TA powers, and slow for the weak effects it now has.  Like DPA.  In this case it's the EffPA I consider poor.  I just find there's always some better use of those 2s than casting Acid Arrow.  Maybe on an MM it would beat standing around.  But on the other ATs you're apt to have better alternatives.  Heck, I find casting Entangling Arrow on Bosses for the -Res is more useful.

 

Another thing I just noticed in my latest round of testing is that some Crey have 10% ToHit Debuff Res, but when hit by Acid Arrow still have 10% ToHit Debuff Res (according to the Power Analyzer) despite the -30% from Acid Arrow.  They have the exact same debuff when the debuffs are applied before or after Acid Arrow.  I tried it on some Archnos with ToHit Debuff Res and they ignored Acid Arrow as well.  [Edit: This was already reported earlier.  It's a known design component.]

 

The first pic below is without first casting Acid Arrow, the second is when using Acid Arrow before the debuffs.  I waited for the debuffs to wear off between casts.  The final ToHit bonus is 22.43% in each case.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr
Corrections

[csr]

41 minutes ago, xl8 said:

I get that. I'm specifically talking about the mobs being "blinded". Is this still irresistible? There's no mention of it in the notes and sometimes these changes affect parts of the powers in unintended ways. Has any1 tested it in beta?

If you can tell me what mob has PER Debuff Res I could test it.

[M3z]

Is acid arrow that bad when you can slot achilles and annihilation for -40% res? 

[Jacke]

7 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

If you have an high accuracy build, then maybe Acid Arrow is overkill.

 

Keep in mind that at lower levels the -def will be very helpful for poorly slotted teams. Think Sky Raider force field generators.

-Def is useful, but it would be more useful if it was coupled with another immediately useful debuff, like Radiation Emission's Radiation Infection, which has -Def and -ToHit together.  Because it's so often you don't need -Def and then Acid Arrow is much less useful.

 

Not all builds are high accuracy, but to be playable at +4x8 with any team makeup, you need to have significant +ToHit, Accuracy, and/or -Def in a build.  But not depending on -Def simplifies what powers are needed and used.  I set Mids to use 48% base ToHit, that against a +3 enemy (instead of the default 75%), then make sure the powers have 95% Accuracy or better.  As I level a toon, I work towards that.

 

I monitor Last Hit Chance to see how well I'm doing.  If I start dropping below 95% too much and it starts affecting mission performance, I know I have to change something, either tactics and power use, the difficulty, or the build.

 

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

The -special scaling against purple has been lackluster. For instance, it had no practical effect on an even con sapper, which has good endurance drain resists.

As you say, Sappers have a high resistance against I believe both -End and -Rec.  Even with the -Special in Acid Arrow, I'm not sure it would be enough to overwhelm them or similarly strongly resistant enemies, like AVs etc.

 

I've run a Kinetics-Electric Blast Defender pre-2012 and am recreating him.  I would use either 2 Short Circuits or later a Transference and a Short Circuit to drain End and flatten enemy Recover enough to leave them ineffective until I defeated them.  Perhaps with an Acid Arrow, I could do that in one shot.

 

But the problem with Acid Arrow improving debuffs is right now for the Trick Arrow toon, it only improves Flash Arrow (-ToHit) and Glue Arrow (-Speed -Recharge).  And they often have enough.  And when they don't have enough, it's against high debuff resistant enemy like AVs that even with just 1 Acid Arrow, won't have enough.

 

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

2+ TA players could make -special useful. I can already see all TA teams, like there are all Fire/Rad corruptor teams.

I also thought of a Trick Arrow SuperTeam, like @TopDoc used to run.  Stacking many Acid Arrow would be interesting.  Would need to be a mixed SuperTeam as you'd need toons with -Regen (Rad Emission Lingering Radiation?) and -End and -Rec (Kinetics and Electric Blast?) to take full advantage of all of Acid Arrows features.

 

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I don't know why AA has a 1.83 cast time. I wouldn't complain if was dropped to 1.16 like others. It's still very quick.

 

You want a slow cast time, let's talk about Hail of Bullets 4.17 second cast time!

When you read a cast time in the City client, don't forget to convert to ArcanaTime: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/ArcanaTime

 

I use a mini spreadsheet to help (screen capture in the spoiler).  Example, if a cast time is listed between two values, say 0.924 and 1.056, I know its actual cast time is 1.188.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

I get that. I'm specifically talking about the mobs being "blinded". Is this still irresistible? There's no mention of it in the notes and sometimes these changes affect parts of the powers in unintended ways. Has any1 tested it in beta?

I believe "Blinded" is when a PC or NPC has enough -Perception to floor it to the minimum.  Players's minimum Perception is 0.  Don't know what it is for NPCs, but it could be 0 too.

 

EDIT: From what @KaizenSoze discovered with a Power Analyzer in the next post below, looks like the minimum -Perception is 0.05ft, likely low enough to be effectively zero without having a zero that might screw up formulas.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jacke

[KaizenSoze]

55 minutes ago, xl8 said:

I get that. I'm specifically talking about the mobs being "blinded". Is this still irresistible? There's no mention of it in the notes and sometimes these changes affect parts of the powers in unintended ways. Has any1 tested it in beta?

I did a quick test to verify the -perception aka blinding is still working.

 

• Power analyze a mob in the PI parking lot
• Power analyze shows 45.0 perception
• Flash Arrow drops the perception to .05
• Turn off all stealth
• Run tight circles around the mob
• No Aggro

It appears to be working as before.

[KaizenSoze]

10 minutes ago, Jacke said:

As you say, Sappers have a high resistance against I believe both -End and -Rec.  Even with the -Special in Acid Arrow, I'm not sure it would be enough to overwhelm them or similarly strongly resistant enemies, like AVs etc.

 

I've run a Kinetics-Electric Blast Defender pre-2012 and am recreating him.  I would use either 2 Short Circuits or later a Transference and a Short Circuit to drain End and flatten enemy Recover enough to leave them ineffective until I defeated them.  Perhaps with an Acid Arrow, I could do that in one shot.

I hate to say it, but I think you are going to be disappointed with the end drain. I thought exactly as you did.

 

My first build to test TA was TA/Elec with heavy end drain slotting. I think I posted it earlier in this thread. I definitely posted our comments.

 

In my experience, mobs you could drain in two shots, still take two shots with AA. Mobs that resistant to end drain, have more resistance than at least one AA can overcome.

Edited November 12, 2020 by KaizenSoze

[Jacke]

7 minutes ago, M3z said:

Is acid arrow that bad when you can slot achilles and annihilation for -40% res? 

In a build, every power has to earn its keep.  Will it be used and where? And every power has to be considered against what other powers could be included if that power is dropped and its extra slots used on other powers.  And what is the loss and benefits from swapping to another power.

 

Linked to this is if you take all 18 Primary and Secondary powers, you only have 6 free power picks for Pool and Epic powers.  And those many powers, especially Primary and Secondary powers, often need extra slots to make them worthwhile.

 

And some Primary/Secondary powers are very weak or very situational.

 

Put those factors together and it's rare that I take every power from a powerset.  And I look for powers to drop.  Super Reflexes is one I know that I'll take all.  Many sets I'll take 8.  But I often need anywhere from 7 to 13 Pool and Epic powers to make the toon the way I want it.

 

Because the changes are significant, on first pass, I'm planning to take all 9 Trick Arrow powers.  But I know I'll likely drop at least one for another power I find more useful more often.  For the new Trick Arrow, Acid Arrow is Number 1 on the taxiway to being dropped to make room.  It has good features, but those features are definitely situation and some may not be significant enough.  It also means on my planned TA/Archery Defender, I'm not planning to take it until level 49.  Damning it with faint praise.

[csr]

49 minutes ago, M3z said:

Is acid arrow that bad when you can slot achilles and annihilation for -40% res? 

I believe Annhilation is actually -12.5% Res.  With no Recharge in Acid Arrow they should fire off about 40% (Ann) and 47% (AH) of the time for 8s each.  An average -Res of -117 percent-seconds/mob hit.  By comparison, Entangling Arrow will do -450 percent-seconds per hit.

 

You need to come up with a model of mobs hit and how long each lives to move on from there.  To use the Pylon scenario you're probably better off attacking than using Acid Arrow.  It will up your damage an average of 14.4% for 8s at the cost of roughly 2s of your normal DPS.  If you're spamming it to try to keep it up that's 80% (Acid Arrow will eat about 20% of your cast time) * 1.144 ~ 0.91.  Which is less than 1.0 - what you'd do without using Acid Arrow.

 

For large spawns the procs would have more value, but I find the bulk of the spawn dies plenty fast and really only worry about -Res on Bosses or greater.

 

Anyway, procs aren't part of the power, though they should to be taken into account in the second order consideration.  But then the near certainty that procs will get nerfed should probably be considered as well.  If global +Rech starts getting factored in to balance them... well, you get the point.

 

Yeah, procs make Acid Arrow better.  But it's sad to think that they may now be the best reason to use it.

Edited November 12, 2020 by csr
Typo, grammar

[Jacke]

8 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I hate to say it, but I think you are going to be disappointed with the end drain. I thought exactly as you did.

 

My first build to test TA was TA/Elec with heavy end drain slotting. I think I posted it earlier in this thread. I definitely posted our comments.

 

In my experience, mobs you could drain in two shots, still take two shots with AA. Mobs that resistant to end drain, have more resistance than at least one AA can overcome.

I kind of remember that comment.  I was thinking more along the way of having a TA Defender and a Kinetics/Elec Defender, so each could slot to their strengths.  But unless you always team with a particular group of people (which has happened and will again), you depend on luck to get a match.  Kinetics is popular and...let me check my Kinetics/Elec Defender in Mids.

 

I don't think Mids handles the Purple Patch outside of adjusting base ToHit, so the -Rec and -End values will be lower for higher level enemy.

 

In Mids, the build has Short Circuit with -133% Rec and -46% End, but that's with only 33% EndMod slotting (it's slotted more for damage).  Even with ED-maxed EndMod, it only gets to just over -69% End.  -40% Special from Acid Arrow will not push that to -100% End in one shot.

 

Transference has -81% End with 47% EndMod slotting.  Acid Arrow will push that to -100% End, but so would better EndMod slotting.  But draining all End without flooring Recovery doesn't stop enemies.  They get a sliver of Endurance and they attack.  And with powers from two Buff sets, you need 2 Defenders/Corruptors/Controllers.

 

It's why I went with Kinetics and Electrical Blast.  Short Circuit to damage, floor enemy Recovery, and drain partway, Transference to finish draining and restore my Endurance.  And it looks like Acid Arrow doesn't make it less than needing both powers.

 

So it's down to Acid Arrow boosting the -Rec and -End making that Short Circuit+Transference 2-shot work against stronger targets.  Problem is I think when enemies get -Rec and -End resistance, they get high values.

 

And if Acid Arrow does help enough, so do more applications of Short Circuit and Transference.  I can't remember how tough were the enemies I successfully sapped (it's been a long time), but I do remember some I needed more than 1 pair of power shots.

[csr]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

I get that. I'm specifically talking about the mobs being "blinded". Is this still irresistible? There's no mention of it in the notes and sometimes these changes affect parts of the powers in unintended ways. Has any1 tested it in beta?

The power is flagged as unresistable (all -90%).  In a brief spin I couldn't find anything that resisted it.  Not even Arachnos Fortunata Bosses and Mistress LTs.  It may be that nothing I checked had any PER Res to begin with.  I'd probably need to find someone with Tactics to test it against to be absolutely sure.

Edited November 12, 2020 by csr

[Jacke]

37 minutes ago, csr said:

Yeah, procs make Acid Arrow better.  But it's sad to think that they may now be the best reason to use it.

Good analysis in your post, @csr.  I believe you're right about the Annihilation proc being -12.5% Res, which is what Mids says.  Just checked the recipe and the IO, but only says it's 3PPM, no debuff value given.

 

For my planned Ninjas/TA Mastermind (hey, I'm an AR/Dev veteran, unloved toons are me specialty 🙂), I have more slots to play with and more flexibility in what level to take Acid Arrow.  It was going to be at level 24 and eventually with 4 Bombardment, one the Fire damage proc, and the Achilles -Res proc.  I think I'll switch one of the Bombardments to the Annihilation proc.

 

5 slots with 3 procs.  I'm using a -Def -Special arrow with a minimal DoT hoping for enough -Rec and fire damage from procs to make taking the power worth it.  The Ninjas have enough Accuracy and ToHit (build has Maneuvers, Assault, and at 48 Tactics).  And I've already got unprocced -Res in Entangling Arrow and Disruption Arrow.

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the build would be better dropping Acid Arrow and moving Tactics down to level 24 and add another power (I've already got Stealth and Grant Invisibility, could go for Phase Shift, or Vengeance).  Or adding in Aid Other (build has only 3 Pools so far so I can add Medicine).  I can just resummon Ninjas, but would the Oni be better served by my toon having Aid Other?  Hmmm.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[Wavicle]

What if attacking a foe who has the Acid Arrow debuff provided a small heal to the attacker?

[Monos King]

Just now, Jacke said:

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the build would be better dropping Acid Arrow and either moving Tactics down to level 24.  Or adding in Aid Other (build has only 3 Pools so far so I can add Medicine).  I can just resummon Ninjas, but would the Oni be better served by my toon having Aid Other.  Hmmm.

You want acid arrow. It'll improve the -to hit of your Flash Arrow which you really need if you are rolling Ninjas with their paper frail protections.

 

Although it doesn't affect bosses beyond right now so...that's also a thing.

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

For my planned Ninjas/TA Mastermind (hey, I'm an AR/Dev veteran, unloved toons are me specialty 🙂), I have more slots to play with and more flexibility in what level to take Acid Arrow.  It was going to be at level 24 and eventually with 4 Bombardment, one the Fire damage proc, and the Achilles -Res proc.  I think I'll switch one of the Bombardments to the Annihilation proc.

 

5 slots with 3 procs.  I'm using a -Def -Special arrow with a minimal DoT hoping for enough -Rec and fire damage from procs to make taking the power worth it.  The Ninjas have enough Accuracy and ToHit (build has Maneuvers, Assault, and at 48 Tactics).  And I've already got unprocced -Res in Entangling Arrow and Disruption Arrow.

 

Hah. I have an AR/dev blaster, was my first love on Homecoming.

 

I made a Ninja/TA and a Necro/TA on the beta server. I am not a MM expert, barely play them, but I was able to solo some 4x8 content.

 

 

[Jacke]

7 minutes ago, Monos King said:

You want acid arrow. It'll improve the -to hit of your Flash Arrow which you really need if you are rolling Ninjas with their paper frail protections.

 

Although it doesn't affect bosses beyond right now so...that's also a thing.

I've barely played Masterminds, a long time ago and not that many levels of Thugs/Dark and Robots/Traps.  You have much more experience to draw upon and I respect your words.

 

Of course, with the Genin and Jounin recharges just over 30s, I could go for...Blood for the Blood God!!!  Skulls for the Skull Throne!!!  Milk for the Khorne Flakes!!!  'Course, that's supposed to be the enemies' Blood, Skulls, and Milk....  And I won't hit those recharges until the build is IOed out.  And then there's having enough Recovery and tactical handling to take that level of attrition....

 

I'll stay with Acid Arrow at level 24 for now.  Just wish the choice wasn't so knife-edge.

[Jacke]

17 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

What if attacking a foe who has the Acid Arrow debuff provided a small heal to the attacker?

What would be the mechanism for justifying this?  Normally I like to keep my distance from an acid-soaked enemy.  Does horrors to the spandex and Super Tailors are bloody expensive.

 

But seriously, what is the imagined mechanism for having a debuffed enemy as source of healing?  That's similar to what happens to defeated Praetorian Ghouls: they generate a healing aura pulse so of like Kinetics Transfusion to other enemies.

 

I think a lot of us are thinking "I really wish Acid Arrow still had -Res."  Because more -Res is always welcome, which everyone on the team can use all the time, because it buffs damage even beyond the AT damage enhancement limit.  Even with 3 powers having it (new EA, reverted Acid Arrow, Disruption Arrow), a lot of use would try to take all 3.  And if needed, would likely drop Disruption Arrow just to limit the set to only 3 location based powers.

 

But 3 -Res powers in a set has only been seen in Sonic powersets.  It would likely be too strong unless the powers' -Res values added together were about the same as the current new TA: -20% from EA, -40% from DA.  So now it would be needing 3 attacks to apply the -60% instead of 2.

 

And Entangling Arrow's -20% Res, from level 1, is full of utility and will be throughout the TA toon's adventures.

 

Now, if Acid Arrow's -Special included boosting other -Res attacks....

[Wavicle]

They put the -Res from Acid Arrow into Disruption. That was a good change. Adding it back is a bad idea. So there needs to be a better solution.