Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Wavicle]

I guess considering All the debuffs and secondary effects being thrown on a full team Acid Arrow will improve Most of them. That could really add up.

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I guess considering All the debuffs and secondary effects being thrown on a full team Acid Arrow will improve Most of them. That could really add up.

Not necessarily.  It's why we've been bashing and talking so many numbers.

 

Take my AR/Dev Blaster.  Doesn't have Smoke Grenade at the moment.  But if he did....

 

Smoke Grenade when it hits a mob in its AoE has 4.90% -ToHit.

 

If the mob has no ToHit debuff defense, was affected by Acid Arrow, and got hit by the smoke, it would be 6.86% -ToHit.

 

My toon is currently at 35.79% Ranged Defense and with more final slotting will be closer to the softcap.  Even those small amount of -ToHit could cut out near 40% to 50% of incoming ranged damage.  And will help other Defenses.

 

If I get my Ranged Defense to the softcap, Smoke Grenade will no longer help against Ranged Attacks.  But if I go up against Cimerorans and they put some -Def on me, that Smoke would help cut down the first -7.5% Def on the AR/Dev.

 

But this is all a competition of attrition between HP, Regen, Healing, and incoming Damage gated by Accuracy, ToHit, Def, -ToHit, -Def.  And if I depend too much on just having better attrition that the enemy, I could still get ground down so much my toon is defeated.

 

Instead, I can improve my tactics.  How I clear maps and handle tough mobs.  And that can be worth a lot more than 5 to 7% -ToHit.

 

The smallness of that -ToHit is why I don't have Smoke Grenade at the moment.

 

I'd like to fit in Smoke Grenade.  But I'd have to axe a power to make it fit.  And for now, I don't want to do that.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[WindDemon21]

10 hours ago, csr said:

So far the best suggestions I've come up with are simply to change the cast to 1.16s and give it a 1.2x Acc modifier to make it a little better for using as a -Def tool and live with the highly disappointing -Special component.

Personally it seems the -special will be mostly useless outside of AVs. I would be happy enough with the power though if it had the shorter cast time and higher base accuracy, but without those it will largely feel like a waste outside of AV fights.

[Jimmy]

Release Candidate 1 - November 13th, 2020

 

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

 

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

•  Entangling Arrow
  • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
  • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
  • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff
    • PvP only: This effect is removed
•  Flash Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -18.76%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible
•  Glue Arrow
  • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
  • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
  • This power is now location based
•  Ice Arrow
  • Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
  • Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff
    • PvP only: -Heal, -Absorb and -Damage removed, the remaining debuffs only last 10s
•  Poison Gas Arrow
  • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
    • PvP only: Debuff only lasts for 3s after you leave the cloud
  • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible
•  Acid Arrow
  • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
  • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
    • This power still has a -25% defence debuff
  • Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
    • PvP only: Debuff halved
  • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
    • PvP only: Reduced to -20%
  • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
    • PvP only: Duration is still 20s
  • This power has a new icon
•  Disruption Arrow
  • Target cap increased from 10 to 16
  • Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
  • -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
  • Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
  • Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
  • Duration increased from 30s to 45s
•  Oil Slick Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
•  EMP Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
  • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
  • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
  • This power is now location based
  • This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
    • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
    • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
    • Protection against status effects and knock back

[WindDemon21]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:38 AM, Jimmy said:

 Glue Arrow

• -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
• Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s

Glue arrow no longer lists as being location based, is this still the case or did you just assume we knew it was changed and didn't include that here?

[Jimmy]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

Glue arrow no longer lists as being location based, is this still the case or did you just assume we knew it was changed and didn't include that here?

It's still the case. Will fix.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

It's still the case. Will fix.

Whew thank god thanks Jimmy! lol

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Release Candidate 1 - November 13th, 2020

 

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

 

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

•  Entangling Arrow
  • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
  • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
  • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff
    • PvP only: This effect is removed
•  Flash Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -18.76%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible
•  Glue Arrow
  • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
  • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
  • This power is now location based
•  Ice Arrow
  • Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
  • Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff
    • PvP only: -Heal, -Absorb and -Damage removed, the remaining debuffs only last 10s
•  Poison Gas Arrow
  • -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
    • PvP only: Debuff only lasts for 3s after you leave the cloud
  • -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible
•  Acid Arrow
  • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
  • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
    • This power still has a -25% defence debuff
  • Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
    • PvP only: Debuff halved
  • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
    • PvP only: Reduced to -20%
  • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
    • PvP only: Duration is still 20s
  • This power has a new icon
•  Disruption Arrow
  • Target cap increased from 10 to 16
  • Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
  • -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
  • Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
  • Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
  • Duration increased from 30s to 45s
•  Oil Slick Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
•  EMP Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
  • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
  • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
  • This power is now location based
  • This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
    • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
    • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
    • Protection against status effects and knock back

I like all the changes except for Entangling Arrow. The -res needs to be -def. How does a rope lower resistance? A rope can certainly lower defense though (making it harder to avoid attacks). A simple and effective change would be:

Entangling arrow gets -def.
Move the -res intended for Entangling arrow to Acid Arrow (where it makes the most sense). 

That wouldn't really change much but thematically it would make more sense.

[Wavicle]

12 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I like all the changes except for Entangling Arrow. The -res needs to be -def. How does a rope lower resistance? A rope can certainly lower defense though (making it harder to avoid attacks). A simple and effective change would be:

Entangling arrow gets -def.
Move the -res intended for Entangling arrow to Acid Arrow (where it makes the most sense). 

That wouldn't really change much but thematically it would make more sense.

It's not just rope. The netting is coated with a toxic adhesive that reduces resistance.

[Marbing]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It's not just rope. The netting is coated with a toxic adhesive that reduces resistance.

Does it say that in the description now?

[Wavicle]

I’m telling you how I think of it in my imagination.

[Marbing]

Just now, Wavicle said:

I’m telling you how I think of it in my imagination.

Ahh, okay.

[WindDemon21]

18 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I like all the changes except for Entangling Arrow. The -res needs to be -def.

No, it 100% does not, unless you mean to ADD the -defense for more IO slotting. -res is hard to come by, -def is already in acid arrow and oil slick.

[Marbing]

7 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

No, it 100% does not, unless you mean to ADD the -defense for more IO slotting. -res is hard to come by, -def is already in acid arrow and oil slick.

Oops, seem to have ruffled some feathers there. My bad.

My change was more meant out of having things make sense (-def makes more sense than -res, but it could easily just go back to -rech and move the -res to acid arrow). Also, your statement "-res is hard to come by" makes 0% sense in this context since I didn't say REMOVE it entirely I said to MOVE it to Acid Arrow. (Thus you are not missing any -res) But...details, details... am I right?

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by th0ughtGun

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Oops, seem to have ruffled some feathers there. My bad.

My change was more meant out of having things make sense (-def makes more sense than -res, but it could easily just go back to -rech and move the -res to acid arrow). Also, your statement "-res is hard to come by" makes 0% sense in this context since I didn't say REMOVE it entirely I said to MOVE it to Acid Arrow. (Thus you are not missing any -res) But...details, details... am I right?

 

 

Moving it OUT of Acid Arrow was one of the purposes of the revamp. A "suggestion" of simply NOT doing the revamp isn't really useful.

[Wavicle]

7 hours ago, Jacke said:

Not necessarily.  It's why we've been bashing and talking so many numbers.

 

Take my AR/Dev Blaster.  Doesn't have Smoke Grenade at the moment.  But if he did....

 

Smoke Grenade when it hits a mob in its AoE has 4.90% -ToHit.

 

If the mob has no ToHit debuff defense, was affected by Acid Arrow, and got hit by the smoke, it would be 6.86% -ToHit.

 

My toon is currently at 35.79% Ranged Defense and with more final slotting will be closer to the softcap.  Even those small amount of -ToHit could cut out near 40% to 50% of incoming ranged damage.  And will help other Defenses.

 

If I get my Ranged Defense to the softcap, Smoke Grenade will no longer help against Ranged Attacks.  But if I go up against Cimerorans and they put some -Def on me, that Smoke would help cut down the first -7.5% Def on the AR/Dev.

 

But this is all a competition of attrition between HP, Regen, Healing, and incoming Damage gated by Accuracy, ToHit, Def, -ToHit, -Def.  And if I depend too much on just having better attrition that the enemy, I could still get ground down so much my toon is defeated.

 

Instead, I can improve my tactics.  How I clear maps and handle tough mobs.  And that can be worth a lot more than 5 to 7% -ToHit.

 

The smallness of that -ToHit is why I don't have Smoke Grenade at the moment.

 

I'd like to fit in Smoke Grenade.  But I'd have to axe a power to make it fit.  And for now, I don't want to do that.

Using Smoke Grenade is a very, very bad example because as you pointed out Smoke Grenade is terrible.

Also, looking at One power is a mistake.

I'm saying if my Trick Arrow is on a team, let's say there's also a Dark, a Storm, and a Poison on the team, my Acid Arrow will improve many of THEIR debuffs, which have much larger values to work with than Smoke Grenade.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wavicle

[Marbing]

14 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Moving it OUT of Acid Arrow was one of the purposes of the revamp. A "suggestion" of simply NOT doing the revamp isn't really useful.

I never said don't do the revamp. Everything else still stays. Just keep the -res in acid arrow and don't add it to entangling arrow. That's the main point here. Simple. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by th0ughtGun

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I never said don't do the revamp. Everything else still stays. Just keep the -res in acid arrow and don't add it to entangling arrow. That's the main point here. Simple. 

The Acid Arrow's resistance debuff was moved to Disruption Arrow. Entangling Arrow gaining a single target resistance debuff was an independent design decision and it would not make sense to move it into Acid Arrow, which is an AoE. Unless you're wanting to suggest moving the 20% resistance debuff back out of Disruption Arrow, I don't see any shuffling of -resistance debuffs. My preference, I like using 1 arrow to cast 40% resistance debuff instead of 2 arrows. 

[Marbing]

30 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The Acid Arrow's resistance debuff was moved to Disruption Arrow. Entangling Arrow gaining a single target resistance debuff was an independent design decision and it would not make sense to move it into Acid Arrow, which is an AoE. Unless you're wanting to suggest moving the 20% resistance debuff back out of Disruption Arrow, I don't see any shuffling of -resistance debuffs. My preference, I like using 1 arrow to cast 40% resistance debuff instead of 2 arrows. 

Sorry there seems to be some miscommunication here.

 

I said I liked all of the other changes. So disruption arrow wouldn't need to go back to a lower -res. Please don't put words in my mouth (or in my fingers I guess in this case?) You can still get your -40% from disruption. BUT get this (as it stands with these suggested changes), you cast ANOTHER arrow (Entangling arrow) to get a bit more on a single target. So you aren't solving the "problem" of using 2 arrows to get your full debuff. So again, what harm is there in putting -res back in acid arrow? It can do -res to that target and maybe the splash targets get less or maybe none. However you wanna work that out. Point is: it makes zero sense in a rope arrow and keeping it in entangling arrow or moving it back to acid arrow doesn't change the fact you need two arrows to get the full affect. 

 

Anyways, it's been fun! Obviously you guys / gals know better than me. There must be something I am missing.

 

TA is still going to be much better with the suggested changes. It's just, objectively, a stretch thematically to suggest -res in a rope arrow without giving an explanation as to how a rope lowers someone resistance. Change the description, change the name, or remove it and add it back to acid arrow. Those are my suggestions to make sense thematically. Not a big deal, overall. 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by th0ughtGun

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I said I liked all of the other changes. So disruption arrow wouldn't need to go back to a lower -res. Please don't put words in my mouth (or in my fingers I guess I'm this case?) You can still get your -40% from disruption. BUT get this (as it stands with these suggested changes), you cast ANOTHER arrow (Entangling arrow) to get a bit more on a single target. So you aren't solving the "problem" of using 2 arrows to get your full debuff. So again, what harm is there in putting -res back in acid arrow? It can do -res to that target and maybe the splash targets get less or maybe none. However you wanna work that out. Point is: it makes zero sense in a rope arrow and keeping it in entangling arrow or moving it back to acid arrow doesn't change the fact you need two arrows to get the full affect. 

There is some miscommunication here. Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow each used to provide 20% resistance debuff. In this revamp, the resistance debuff from AA was moved to DA so that you did not have to cast multiple arrows to apply the 40% total resistance (also, one of the arrows used to be smaller radius, so this was a preferred solution for many reasons). 

 

Entangling Arrow didn't always do -Resistance. That debuff was added later on when its initial designs were deemed too powerful/exploitable. CPH wanted the set to have another ST resistance debuff and chose to put it into Entangling Arrow as a replacement to the originally designed debuff. I agree, I don't like -Resistance as a thematic choice for entangling arrow, but at the same time we have a bunch of powers that aren't thematic (for example, Slowed Response is a resistance debuff for Time Manipulation...why?). 

 

You certainly could make AA resistance debuff a single target and not the other targets in the area, that's certainly common. However, that would mean you're electing to change the cooldown of the single target resistance debuff from 4s to 20s, and the cast time from 1s to 1.83s. For folks wanting to spam Entangling Arrow across multiple targets will be saddened by this design decision.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Marbing]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

There is some miscommunication here. Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow each used to provide 20% resistance debuff. In this revamp, the resistance debuff from AA was moved to DA so that you did not have to cast multiple arrows to apply the 40% total resistance (also, one of the arrows used to be smaller radius, so this was a preferred solution for many reasons). 

Avid TA user here, so already knew this and understand.

 

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Entangling Arrow didn't always do -Resistance. That debuff was added later on when its initial designs were deemed to powerful/exploitable. CPH wanted the set to have another ST resistance debuff and chose to put it into Entangling Arrow as a replacement to the originally designed debuff. I agree, I don't like -Resistance as a thematic choice for entangling arrow, but at the same time we have a bunch of powers that aren't thematic (for example, Slowed Response is a resistance debuff for Time Manipulation...why?). 

Also understood. Yes a few things don't make sense thematically, and as I said not really a big deal. Just those things bother me, sort of a stickler for details like that.

 

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You certainly could make AA debuff a single target and not the other targets in the area, that's certainly common. However, that would pmean you're electing to change the cooldown of the single target resistance debuff from 4s to 20s, and the cast time from 1s to 1.83s. For folks wanting to spam Entangling Arrow across multiple targets will be saddened by this design decision.

 

If it stayed AoE maybe you wouldn't need to spam it? But I do see your point and it is valid. Thank you for the explanation, the decision makes a little more sense now.

[Monos King]

48 minutes ago, Bopper said:

(for example, Slowed Response is a resistance debuff for Time Manipulation...why?). 

I know you feel similarly, but whenever this comparison pops up, I am obligated to state that it makes significantly more sense than Entangling Arrow. I accept it for Trick Arrow now but it'll be silly to continue using that as a reason for counter intuitive additions in the future.

[Vanden]

53 minutes ago, Bopper said:

(for example, Slowed Response is a resistance debuff for Time Manipulation...why?)

Damage from impacts is mitigated by distributing the force of impact over a wider area; with time slowed, the force can't propagate across the impacted body as quickly, so more force is focused into a tighter area around the point of impact

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Damage from impacts is mitigated by distributing the force of impact over a wider area; with time slowed, the force can't propagate across the impacted body as quickly, so more force is focused into a tighter area around the point of impact

Chronal forces mitigate the speed of both cognitive and physical responses, when applied the body is incapable of tensing or reacting to protect itself from harm

[Wavicle]

19 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Chronal forces mitigate the speed of both cognitive and physical responses, when applied the body is incapable of tensing or reacting to protect itself from harm

As does being trapped in a Trick Archer's Entangling net.