Weekly Discussion 77: Designing an Epic Archetype for Praetorian Earth

[Darmian]

Ok, a lot to think about there.  Wanders off to muse.

[Alchemystic]

Not got much in mind for it considering there's not a lot to work with, but the idea of having a Carnival of Light style character sounds pretty fun, especially if you can later choose to follow the Carnival of War (focusing on mace attacks) or the Carnival of Vengeance (addition of new spells). This could certainly play well as a Resistance themed character, and expanding on the story of the relationship between the Carnival, Resistance and Talons of Vengeance. Perhaps instead of unlocking just one career path, there could be two, where a Carnival of Vengeance character could full well give themselves over to the Talons and gain new abilities, and a Carnival of Vengeance character could join the ranks of the Runesoldiers and gain use of their unique Rune Rifles.

 

Example: You start as a Carnival of Light character. You have access to a lightstaff that allows you to project bolts of energy, as well as light/energy themed armor powers.

 

As you progress, you may unlock the Carnival of War or Carnival of Vengeance career paths. Carnival of War grants you a series of mace style melee attacks to use with your staff, and sturdier personal defenses. Carnival of Vengeance however instead imbues you with a means of using other elemental attacks with your lightstaff.

 

A little more progression you can instead become a Runesoldier, giving you a Rune Rifle and allowing you a series of heavier projectile attacks, as well as higher magical defenses. On the other side of things, you could become a true member of the Talons of Vengeance, expanding your elemental attacks without need of your staff.

As for Loyalist? The idea of a Clockwork character could be fun, it could potentially even branch into being upgraded by Neuron or Antimatter, as they each have their own 'faction' of Clockwork, and I imagine with a little more exploration the two sides could be fleshed out a little more both thematically and mechanically. In my mind, the Neuron Clockwork would have more powers to do with electricity, and there are many Clockwork-specific powers that can replicate this, as well as potentially creating new ones from other Electric Powersets. The Anti-Matter Clockwork however would have access to those unique Anti-Matter ray chest cannons and similar style attacks. Perhaps like the Carnies above, they could undergo a 'second' upgrade, where Neuron integrates Warworks weaponry (and armor) into the character, whereas Anti-Matter upgrades them with Mk-VI Victoria gear (since he was the one who made Nightstar after all)

 

Example: You start as a standard Clockwork, you have access to basic Plasma weaponry, as well as some built-in defenses.

As you progress, you would undergo an upgrade by Neuron or Anti-matter. As part of Neuron Clockwork upgrade, you would have access to the 'particle' weapons seen on many Clockwork, as well as some of the repair tools. The Anti-Matter Clockwork upgrade would instead gain the unique chest cannon that fires anti-matter beams, as well as greater melee capabilities. 

 

As you progress further, you have the option to undergo further enhancement. Neuron clockwork are pushed towards Warworks style upgrades, granting them heavier plasma weapons and access to orbital cannons. As for Anti-Matter clockwork, he would opt to continue the Nightstar project with a new series of Mk-VI Victoria upgrades, giving you stealth capabilities, bladed weaponry, as well as anti-matter eye beams.

TL:DR

Carnival of Light (Resistance) -> 10th level upgrade: Carnival of War/Carnival of Vengeance -> 20th level upgrade: Runesoldier/Talons of Vengeance

Clockwork (Loyalist) -> 10th level upgrade: Neuron Clockwork/Anti-Matter Clockwork -> 20th level upgrade: Warworks/Mk-VI Victoria

 

Respecing allows you to swap your path choice just as it does for VEATs

 

Sources used:

Spoiler

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Carnival_of_Light

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Carnival_of_War

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Carnival_of_Vengeance

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/The_Resistance#Runesoldier

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Talons_of_Vengeance

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Praetorian_Clockwork

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Neuron's_Clockwork

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Anti-Matter's_Clockwork

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Warworks

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Imperial_Defense_Force#Mk-VI_.22Victoria.22

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Snarky]

alter ego EAT....  One toon, two completely different characters in it.   (badges, Inf, etc shared)  Maybe keyed to Alignment?  Hero/Vig One AT powersets Vill/Rogue a second.  The dichotomy of a Super caused by split dimensions pulled apart / smushed together.  Would need complete separate builds enhancers (and levelling!?!) for each side the character progresses through

 

[Andreah]

I don't like the idea of carnival or light, syndicate, or other such secondary factions for epic archetypes.

 

One might as well ask why there isn't a cage consortium or goldbricker epic archetype. These are secondary factions, not the primary ones for their side. Sure, if there was the luxury of resources for a dozen epic AT's for each side, they'd work down to those, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.  Hero side's EAT's are closely aligned in lore with Paragon city government -- PB's even serve in the PPD. (I will grants warshades stand out a bit, but they're a natural accompaniment to PB's). Villain side has the natural choice of the Arachnos themed VEATs. and Arachnos is the defining npc faction of the isles. Praetoria is naturally powers division and resistance; and the obvious choices would be some theme from the NPCs that serve those top tier factions there. 

 

 

[Panthonca7034]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

I don't like the idea of carnival or light, syndicate, or other such secondary factions for epic archetypes.

 

These are secondary factions, not the primary ones for their side. Sure, if there was the luxury of resources for a dozen epic AT's for each side, they'd work down to those, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.  Hero side's EAT's are closely aligned in lore with Paragon city government -- PB's even serve in the PPD. (I will grants warshades stand out a bit, but they're a natural accompaniment to PB's). Villain side has the natural choice of the Arachnos themed VEATs. and Arachnos is the defining npc faction of the isles.

Please see the title of this thread: Weekly Discussion 77: Designing an Epic Archetype for Praetorian Earth

This is what this particular thread is focusing on, We're not focusing on Primal Earth on this particular instance

 

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

One might as well ask why there isn't a cage consortium or goldbricker epic archetype. These are secondary factions, not the primary ones for their side. Sure, if there was the luxury of resources for a dozen epic AT's for each side, they'd work down to those, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.  Hero side's EAT's are closely aligned in lore with Paragon city government -- PB's even serve in the PPD. (I will grants warshades stand out a bit, but they're a natural accompaniment to PB's). Villain side has the natural choice of the Arachnos themed VEATs. and Arachnos is the defining npc faction of the isles.

 

Recommendation: Go here Suggestions & Feedback and start a new thread, title it appropriately "Cage Consortium" and "Goldbricker" Archetypes. Honestly though we don't need Goldbricker or Consortium as VEATs, Coralax, Mu, Malta I can understand and see as viable options, but Goldbricker and Cage? No... They fit the Blaster/Sentinel/Scrapper Archetype better.

 

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

Praetoria is naturally powers division and resistance; and the obvious choices would be some theme from the NPCs that serve those top tier factions there.

I couldn't disagree more with you, First Ward, Night Ward, Carnival of Light, and Devouring Earth make up a large under-explored chunk of Praetorian lore, and THAT is the reason why this thread was voted on, to expand a little more on the Epic AT from this dimension. Make no mistake, there's a lot of Goldside enthusiasts that wanted this to be on the discussion thread.

 

I almost forgot another Epic AT category from the Loyalist side: Seers

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Panthonca7034
corrections

[Hew]

8 hours ago, Panthonca7034 said:

Ward, Night Ward, Carnival of Light, and Devouring Earth make up a large under-explored chunk of Praetorian lore, and THAT is the reason why this thread was voted on, to expand a little more on the Epic AT from this dimension. Make no mistake, there's a lot of Goldside enthusiasts that wanted this to be on the discussion thread.

 

I almost forgot another Epic AT category from the Loyalist side: Seers

 

We have forts, that are pretty much psiforbrains already. Seers would be interesting if we didnt already have forts. 

 

For me, I think no further than Underground Trial. 

 

You get, Carnies (des counts as a carnie right?), DE, IDF, Warwalkers...

 

UGT is for me the epitome of all things Praetoria. Plugging into that would be fantastic.

[Darmian]

8 hours ago, Panthonca7034 said:

First Ward, Night Ward, Carnival of Light, and Devouring Earth make up a large under-explored chunk of Praetorian lore, and THAT is the reason why this thread was voted on, to expand a little more on the Epic AT from this dimension. Make no mistake, there's a lot of Goldside enthusiasts that wanted this to be on the discussion thread.

No, I don't think that is the reason. Nova Praetoria, Imperial City, Neutropolis, the three Undergrounds, First Ward, Night Ward, Last Bastion, those are are the reasons.  I don't want to derail the great discussion going on here but I think we need to avoid "Endgame Mentality" creep.  For PEATs to work they have to work from the start.  

[Hew]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

No, I don't think that is the reason. Nova Praetoria, Imperial City, Neutropolis, the three Undergrounds, First Ward, Night Ward, Last Bastion, those are are the reasons.  I don't want to derail the great discussion going on here but I think we need to avoid "Endgame Mentality" creep.  For PEATs to work they have to work from the start.  

I agree with this sentiment. I would like to grow a char into the environment, much like Praetoria content evolves. Blue, and even Red side content doesn't really evolve. It just maybe gets harder. If you look at Praetoria, you go from something pretty basic between loyalists and resistance, and even subfactions there of might vrs right, to a panicked all out attempt to just survive. It imperveates the entirety of Praetoria, from the chaos of Nightward, First Ward, the hami seed "fight", and the wild and unchecked growth of DE as it breaks through the sonic barriers and performs an all out assault (multiple seeds at once) in that near final arc where you defend the (tower?) with the incarnate powered guns you fuel. 

 

Even the seers go from pretty normal seers, to some pretty crazy weird stuff. Clear evolution, beyond moar powerz or bigger orange numbers. 

[Kazuuk]

According to the loregasm 2013 AMA, the devs did have plans for a Redeemed Clockwork PEAT.  Not only would this be a wonderful way to honor Pargon's original vision, it would offer the most diverse playstyles, as clockwork range from tanks to damage to support.   Additionally it would be interesting from the perspective of what it means to be sentient and the moral dilemmas that implies.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kazuuk

[Alchemystic]

I made sure that most of my ideas could be pulled off from level 1 so that the player didn't feel disconnected from the core content.

 

Clockwork and Resistance are a common encounter in the game, so not much explanation is needed there.

 

The 'Loyalist Trooper' idea could encompass pretty much any faction that uses the force gauntlets, from a lowly PPD officer, to a TEST ranger, all the way up to an IDF soldier. It gives opportunity for career advancement as a story hook, not just a mechanical change.

 

The Carnival of Light aren't encountered until later, but they still are mentioned as being part of the Resiistance from the very start, even if their only appearance is in Vanessa DeVore. Introducing their lore a little earlier through the player could be a nice way of doing them justice.

 

As for Devouring Earth or Midnighter characters? It's a bit of a stretch, you need to think why they would be running around Praetoria and doing the same low level content as everyone else.

[tidge]

24 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

As for Devouring Earth or Midnighter characters? It's a bit of a stretch, you need to think why they would be running around Praetoria and doing the same low level content as everyone else.

I know that many folks see the forced VEAT respec at 24 as an issue, my thinking about Hami-PEATs was that it would work similarly, such that the 'mad skills' would be unlocked after a certain level. Before that, the PEATs would have a more basic set of powers.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Isn't the Level 24 forced respec one of the most reviled aspects of the Villain Epics, though?

[Darmian]

6 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Isn't the Level 24 forced respec one of the most reviled aspects of the Villain Epics, though?

Is it?  Never had an issue with it.  Well, learn something new everyday.

[Alchemystic]

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I know that many folks see the forced VEAT respec at 24 as an issue, my thinking about Hami-PEATs was that it would work similarly, such that the 'mad skills' would be unlocked after a certain level. Before that, the PEATs would have a more basic set of powers.

6 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Isn't the Level 24 forced respec one of the most reviled aspects of the Villain Epics, though?

 

It's not exactly forced, I've seen many people keep to a basic soldier or widow theme by tactically selecting powers that don't infringe on that, while supplementing the character with suitable pool powers where there might be gaps. 

The ideas I had wouldn't have a 'forced respec', it would instead just unlock more powers for the player as you progress, instead of the notion of replacement powers.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Tis my point.

Once you hit Level 24, you -have- to do the Respec to continue levelling up.  It won't let you choose a Level 24 Power until you've done the full Respec.

There were a couple of threads complaining about it in the Suggestion board over the past year and a half.  Several dedicated Arachnos-epic players wanted the option to just say "no" to the Respec, so they could continue with their Huntsman/Blood Widow Builds without the extra pain in the ass.

[tidge]

54 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Isn't the Level 24 forced respec one of the most reviled aspects of the Villain Epics, though?

The only times I've groaned about that particular respec is:

1. When testing a 'from scratch' build on a Test server
2. When constructing a second (or third) character build on a character (which is practically identical to the first case)

The VEATs benefit from having multiple builds, so folks can hit this several times in a career, but other than those circumstances you never really encounter them in a particularly painful way. YMMV.

[Panthonca7034]

10 hours ago, Hew said:

We have forts, that are pretty much psiforbrains already. Seers would be interesting if we didnt already have forts.

 

Forts have a slightly different mechanic (an amalgamation of Willpower, Modified Blaster Ninjutsu and Leadership) which makes them unique. Whereas Seers use some powers from Sonic Blast (Sonic Shockwave) for aesthetic which should be re-labeled Psionic Shockwave. The Resistance powersets are COMPLETELY unique, there's absolutely no Plasma Fusilade or any type of plasma ammunition-power available in the list of powersets.

 

The Praetorian PD have a very different Powerset as well, they have some kind of energy barrier shield and some kind of plasma gauntlet blast, and a lot of the Praetorian PD costumepieces are not available. A similar mechanic should be available to make the Larger PPD gauntlets available, there's a TON of IDF costumepieces that are not available either (The large chest armor, and large power source backpack with antenna) and the energy gauntlets.

[Hew]

I LOVE the Praetorian PD grid barrier thingy. That is AWESOME stuff. I wish I could get to use the costume pieces, but hey.

[Zepp]

Olympian Prototype

Neuron has gone into overdrive to reboot Project Olympian. A combination of a cybernetic brain and a clone of Marcus Cole. Finding that previous failures were the result of seeking perfect clones Neuron has been tampering with genetic diversity within the sample.

 

Costume Slot 0 - Color Tintable "The Olympian" bodysuit.

 

Primary - InvulnerabilityX
A combination of invulnerability (but no psi-hole) and regeneration.

Secondary - Ultimate Assault

An assault-ish set that borrows from Super Strength, Energy Melee, Energy Blast, & possibly Mind Control

lvl 24 choice (no forced respec, but granted a freespec and can choose to open one of the two paths.

Cyborg

Primary - Resilience

Enhances resists, regen, & recovery

Secondary - Arsenal
Focuses on range (forearm cannons and shoulder missiles)

 

Super Soldier

Primary - Adaptation

Adds absorb and defense

Secondary - Speed

Includes, but not limited to, powers from the Synapse task force

 

Special inherent

Super Movement (Super Speed + Super Jump)

 

Inherent power

Responsive (+Res (9% @10% health, 2% @100% health) +Dmg (3% @10% health, 10% @100% health))

 

While this plays similar to a tank, it isn't quite as tanky and does not have aggro generation to the same level. Also, the incorporation of ranged attacks provides more choices.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Zepp

[Zepp]

Child of Lamashtu

Lamashtu is the daughter of Anu, the Sky God. Rather than follow the will of the gods, Lamashtu sought to bring free will and the light of knowledge to the so-called lesser beings. In her quest to un-tether creations from their creator she brought the ire of the Furies and was sealed within the Eternal Prison by the gods and the Furies centuries ago. She bears seven names and when called upon in incantations she manifests as seven witches. She is responsible for bringing knowledge and enlightenment in ancient times. Lamashtu has an enduring hatred for imposed servitude and hoarded knowledge. She is also the bringer of new life. These powerful beings share in their mother's thirst for knowledge and freedom. It is not surprising then that the Furies seek to force her creations into servitude. Those children who have not been enslaved by the Furies seek out the fractures of their mothers consciousness to bring her back to a state of sanity robbed from her.

 

Slot 0 - male or female snake form

 

Primary - Primordial Power

A mix of Savage Melee with some poison spitting and Sonic Blast/Control thrown in.

Secondary - Primordial Might

A mix of Willpower and Poison

 

lvl 24 choice (no forced respec, but granted a freespec and can choose to open one of the two paths). This choice will affect the story arc.

 

Path of Enlightenment

Primary - Primordial Wisdom

A mix of Psionic Assault and Mind Control
Secondary - Primordial Knowledge
A little Nature Affinity and Foresight/Mind Link type powers.

 

Path of Madness

Primary - Primordial Rage

Based on Lamashtu's offensive power set.

Secondary - Primordial Will
A little Storm Summoning with some self-Resist powers.

 

Special inherent
Combat Jump-ish power
Combat Run-ish power (slightly higher run speed than ninja run, but has stealth and minor defense buff)

 

Inherent Power

Devotion (each ally in range increases the regen & recovery rate of the character; allies within range receive a 10% global recharge bonus)

This provides a unique skillset that is Jack-of-all-Trades in a manner that is fun, but not overpowering. The re-framing of the Lamashtu lore also provides an interesting insight into the grayness of Praetoria. This would also provide a more magic-oriented EAT.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Zepp

[Troo]

@Zepp can I just give you ideas and have you flesh them out? Well done.

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

@Zepp can I just give you ideas and have you flesh them out? Well done.

Always willing to collaborate, just let me know.

I was just looking for niches that would be pure Praetorian but distinct. The three main ideas that I've sean about PEATs are PPD, Resistance Commando, and Clockwork. The problem is that any of these three would be a tad too similar to Soldiers of Arachnos. I like the ideas I've seen here for Tellurian Carrier (Hamidon-ish) and Carnival of Light. These would feel very different and provide for the development of interesting playstyles and lore.

The reason I went the way I did was that I felt that goldside addressed the fundamental flaw of CoH/CoV (that conflicts are black and white with one good side and one bad side). By making PEATs that could walk either path (or change paths) I thought they fit the embodiment of the goldside dynamic.

[nyhm]

While I'm not THAT creative or know how balancing and stuff works, id create a Guardian AT, mimic that of Sentinels Control/Buff/Debuff primaries and similar secondaries of those of sentinels. 

[BurtHutt]

I've read some ideas and there are lots of good ones. I had an idea ages ago regarding a varied toon and the theme may blend well with the Praetoria concept. It AT would be having two ATs in one. You build and level up a toon that is actually two different ATs in one. So, you can build a blaster and a brute all in one. You'd have to switch forms and go back and forth between the two. So, hitting the form button would essentially allow you to go back and forth between two ATs. As you level, you get your normal level of slots for each AT etc.  Heck, you could have a combo toon that allows you to have 3 different AT/power sets in one. I haven't fleshed it out to any detail but I think its pretty much already there in game. You could call this AT class The Amalgam! Or something like that :)

 

It would be easy to do and not too draining on the resources. Is it something new? Not really. I do feel it will add a new wrinkle to playing any toon. Until more missions, TFs, Trials, SFs, events etc are added, players will want something different and new. This is definitely different.

 

Also, you could add another epic AT that's completely original to the game and add them to Praetoria as well. Just some ideas here :)

[khy]

Just tossing out an idea here, see if anyone thinks it's interesting.

 

The first EAT was Kheldians showing up. Before Issue 3 they weren't around. So what if the PEAT was something similar - an alien race showing up out of nowhere to ally with the Praetorians? Aliens like, say... another version of the Rikti?