Get rid of the damn tohit cap

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Number Six said:

This is something I've kicked around a bit internally, but with a twist. The idea is to make to-hit chances above 95% possible, but not easy. It wouldn't simply be a matter of just getting 5% more tohit, but applying some sort of severe diminishing returns curve for every point past 95% you push it.

 

Ideally it would be tuned so that if you're a level 50 in Atlas smacking hellions around, you get either 100% tohit or close to it. But if you're fighting a +4 AV, it would be nearly impossible to get close to 100 unless you have massive buffs. In between, could be something you could choose to build for -- maybe put all of those purple +Acc bonuses to use somehow.

 

It's not a very well fleshed out idea at this point, just something that I threw out there and got some commentary on.

I actually posted another thread where I tried to make breaking the 95% hit cap into an actual game mechanic.

 

 

Ultimately though, I just don't feel like the cap and its effects on gameplay are a mechanic worth preserving. It's just an infuriating, unfun aspect of the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

No, thanks. If anything I'd rather see proper crits and fumbles for rolling that natural 1 or 20.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

No, he didn't say mezzed targets. He said targets that don't normally move, like destructible objects in a mission. And also, if out of combat, which the AV wouldn't be.

If you're held, you're not going to be moving, which puts you in the category of things that don't normally move for as long as you are held. Lock someone up in a block of ice, and you should be able to put your next shot through any part of their body you care to hit.

[Greycat]

18 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

If you're held, you're not going to be moving, which puts you in the category of things that don't normally move for as long as you are held. Lock someone up in a block of ice, and you should be able to put your next shot through any part of their body you care to hit.

I feel I explained what I meant fairly clearly, giving very specific examples, and Coyote had it completely right. There's really nothing to misconstrue there. It just sounds like you want an argument, and frankly, I don't care to.

[Burnt Toast]

Oh look another "I win" button thread. Heroes miss - plain and simple. A hero that always hits a villain is boring af. 

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, Number Six said:

This is something I've kicked around a bit internally, but with a twist. The idea is to make to-hit chances above 95% possible, but not easy. It wouldn't simply be a matter of just getting 5% more tohit, but applying some sort of severe diminishing returns curve for every point past 95% you push it.

 

Ideally it would be tuned so that if you're a level 50 in Atlas smacking hellions around, you get either 100% tohit or close to it. But if you're fighting a +4 AV, it would be nearly impossible to get close to 100 unless you have massive buffs. In between, could be something you could choose to build for -- maybe put all of those purple +Acc bonuses to use somehow.

 

It's not a very well fleshed out idea at this point, just something that I threw out there and got some commentary on.

What is the point though? I mean, how often do we really miss wtih 95% chance? Let's just auto hit anything Grey Con and call it a day, especially since they are insignificant to us anyway. However, the way this game is balanced depends on that 95% chance. If we are going to do away with that, we need to do away with the Defense cap as well. Good luck hitting my SR Stalker if that's the case, I don't care what your tohit is, lol.

 

Seriously though, I am not a huge fan of this idea and I for one hate games that have auto hit, it was one thing that drove me insane about Champions Online.

Sorry Vanden, I like you, man...I really do, but this is not one of your greatest ideas.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[Razor Cure]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

Ultimately though, I just don't feel like the cap and its effects on gameplay are a mechanic worth preserving. It's just an infuriating, unfun aspect of the game.

You make it sound like missing is a super common thing. Be honest. What is the Strikebreaker on player attacks, 3 or 5 misses?

You said it yourself..a miss makes you tense and blood pressure spikes...really? lol.

ALL my toons, till lvl 47, run with a single acc IO and a kismet in attacks. And I go through missions and cant remember missing over 10 times.

Even if I die from a miss, debt means literally nothing.

But to comment on the above..I found Champions a lot (a LOT) less fun that CoH, in spite of having some awesome powers and combos. I didn't like the auto hit powers and their system of defence/resistance.

 

[Razor Cure]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Let's just auto hit anything Grey Con and call it a day

This. Makes way more sense. Why SHOULD we be able to auto hit everything? Our toons, no matter the back story, are not Hawkeye.

Missing  only semi-annoys me pre level 22, and that is missing due to lack of slotting on my put (by choice). So as annoying as it can get, it is on me.

On a tangent, I'd actually like a mechanic that makes a Miss (pre lvl 22) not consume any endurance.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

This. Makes way more sense. Why SHOULD we be able to auto hit everything? Our toons, no matter the back story, are not Hawkeye.

Missing  only semi-annoys me pre level 22, and that is missing due to lack of slotting on my put (by choice). So as annoying as it can get, it is on me.

On a tangent, I'd actually like a mechanic that makes a Miss (pre lvl 22) not consume any endurance.

Honestly (this is going a bit off subject here) but the only thing in the game that bothers me mechanics wise is when you attempt to spawn a pet based off a dead body and that body vanishes before the spawning is complete and the pet never forms. You get charged endurance (which is what made me think of it when you said it) for it and your power goes on cool-down. It drives me as insane as the target based Heals used to before they fixed that.

[Lines]

I don't think I've ever noticed my attacks missing above level 22, let alone be annoyed by it. I'm sure they do, but the game is well beyond fast enough for it not to bother me.

 

What are the circumstances where a 5% miss chance is a significant problem?

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Lines said:

I don't think I've ever noticed my attacks missing above level 22, let alone be annoyed by it. I'm sure they do, but the game is well beyond fast enough for it not to bother me.

 

What are the circumstances where a 5% miss chance is a significant problem?

It can be annoying when going against CoT with their -30% Accuracy Debuff plus the CoT Bubble from the Earth Mages...but other than that...none really.

[Doomguide2005]

4 hours ago, Lines said:

I don't think I've ever noticed my attacks missing above level 22, let alone be annoyed by it. I'm sure they do, but the game is well beyond fast enough for it not to bother me.

 

What are the circumstances where a 5% miss chance is a significant problem?

I suspect it has a couple related (emotional) reasons.  First solo (duo maybe) play.  As noted above you'd have to be glued to your combat log probably to notice misses in the high speed chaos of destruction most mid to high level teams engage in.  Second a situation such as a Stalker missing their attack from Hide or other stealthy unperceived foe and their alpha.  Significant no, but memorable to the player of the character.

[ZacKing]

11 hours ago, Number Six said:

This is something I've kicked around a bit internally, but with a twist. The idea is to make to-hit chances above 95% possible, but not easy. It wouldn't simply be a matter of just getting 5% more tohit, but applying some sort of severe diminishing returns curve for every point past 95% you push it.

 

Ideally it would be tuned so that if you're a level 50 in Atlas smacking hellions around, you get either 100% tohit or close to it. But if you're fighting a +4 AV, it would be nearly impossible to get close to 100 unless you have massive buffs. In between, could be something you could choose to build for -- maybe put all of those purple +Acc bonuses to use somehow.

 

It's not a very well fleshed out idea at this point, just something that I threw out there and got some commentary on.

Rather than outright whiffing which sucks, why not try something like a glancing blow that does less damage but still lands? 

[Coyote]

10 hours ago, srmalloy said:

If you're held, you're not going to be moving, which puts you in the category of things that don't normally move for as long as you are held. Lock someone up in a block of ice, and you should be able to put your next shot through any part of their body you care to hit.

 

Controllers and Dominators would love this argument, if you mean to give -Def and -Res to Held or Stun/Immobilized opponents. But it seems like a really major change to AT balance.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Controllers and Dominators would love this argument, if you mean to give -Def and -Res to Held or Stun/Immobilized opponents. But it seems like a really major change to AT balance.

Agreed the ramifications aren't nearly as simple as needing to add 5% health to counter auto hitting.  Balance issues would ripple through any AT with any mez effects that 1) negate any return fire at the team/user and 2) carry any defense or to hit debuffs ... who cares if Earth's attacks carry defense debuffs you're now fighting a Statue you'll hit automatically.  The sets are balanced around the assumption the secondary effects mean something.  

 

No challenge leads to boredom leads to player loss leads to game death.  How much challenge is the real question and it varies enormously with the community.  One peek at threads discussing balance and challenge particularly in the 50+ game will spotlight this.  And this is definitely a step in the less challenging direction.

[Vanden]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

What is the point though? I mean, how often do we really miss wtih 95% chance? Let's just auto hit anything Grey Con and call it a day, especially since they are insignificant to us anyway. However, the way this game is balanced depends on that 95% chance. If we are going to do away with that, we need to do away with the Defense cap as well. Good luck hitting my SR Stalker if that's the case, I don't care what your tohit is, lol.

Think about it, though. Really think about it. We need that 5% chance to hit floor, because otherwise you could get 50% defense and you'd be literally invincible to any enemy up to +5 that doesn't have access to autohit defense buffs. But what does the 95% chance to hit cap actually do? What equally important function does that serve? The answer is nothing. There's no critical function it serves to the game balance. It just makes your victory take a little longer. And if it actually costs you the victory, that's fair? That you did everything right, and still lost?

[Greycat]

Because two words.

"Stuff" happens.

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Because two words.

"Stuff" happens.

So you're saying the critical function provided by the 95% to hit cap is "screw you?" No, I won't accept that. Games should not arbitrarily punish players.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Vanden

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Think about it, though. Really think about it. We need that 5% chance to hit floor, because otherwise you could get 50% defense and you'd be literally invincible to any enemy up to +5 that doesn't have access to autohit defense buffs. But what does the 95% chance to hit cap actually do? What equally important function does that serve? The answer is nothing. There's no critical function it serves to the game balance. It just makes your victory take a little longer. And if it actually costs you the victory, that's fair? That you did everything right, and still lost?

Here is how I look at it. I used to play a game called Heroes Unlimited. Of course later came Villains Unlimited, then came the extra powers books and so forth. It was pretty much D&D with Heroes and Villains instead of Fighters and Mages. You *always* had a chance to miss. That chance to miss however, which yes can get annoying sometimes, is also a 5% chance to hit as well. No matter what, you will always have a 5% chance to hit and I appreciate that. If we lose the %5 chance to miss, you already know somebody somewhere will demand we balance that by losing our 5% chance to hit.

Now, if you would rather do some type of scaling based on level, then I am fine with that. Perhaps a 100% chance to hit anything green con or below, 99% chance to hit anything blue con, 98% chance to hit anything white con, 97% chance to hit yellow con, 96% for orange con and then 95% for anything red con or above, I could probably get more on bore with that than I could with being allowed to auto hit everything every single time. This game has been made easy enough. I'm sure you have seen the big ass battle I just fought on the General Forums asking players to just give us a tiny piece of difficulty back...that went to hell in a hang basket....so after fighting tooth and nail for that, I am hard pressed to support something that makes this game even more easier. However, unlike most others who post these forums, I am at least willing to compromise my ideas. I think a scaling chance to hit is the much better solution.

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Controllers and Dominators would love this argument, if you mean to give -Def and -Res to Held or Stun/Immobilized opponents. But it seems like a really major change to AT balance.

It's a logical extension of 'things that don't move', but you need to remember that this cuts both ways (sometimes literally) -- if your character gets held or immobilized, you become an unmoving target, and all the NPCs will have a 100% chance to hit you.

[Greycat]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

So you're saying the critical function provided by the 95% to hit cap is "screw you?" No, I won't accept that. Games should not arbitrarily punish players.

You're sounding far too wound up over "oh no, I might rarely miss." This is not "screw you" or arbitrary "punishment."

 

If I want a game where I never miss and never have things not work perfectly, I let Progress Quest run in the background. Doesn't even require player interaction.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Here is how I look at it. I used to play a game called Heroes Unlimited. Of course later came Villains Unlimited, then came the extra powers books and so forth. It was pretty much D&D with Heroes and Villains instead of Fighters and Mages. You *always* had a chance to miss. That chance to miss however, which yes can get annoying sometimes, is also a 5% chance to hit as well. No matter what, you will always have a 5% chance to hit and I appreciate that. If we lose the %5 chance to miss, you already know somebody somewhere will demand we balance that by losing our 5% chance to hit.

There are literally hundreds of examples of old game practices that were deprecated because they were inconvenient or unfun. Just because it's a venerable mechanic doesn't mean it's a good one. The fact is, we don't need the chance to hit cap to have the chance to hit floor. We can have one without the other!

 

As for the tabletop games that CoH takes its tohit cap from, in that context it actually does serve a purpose: it's funny. When you're in a social setting with friends, and you roll that one, and your game master comes up with a funny explanation for how your character slipped on a banana peel and crashed through a storefront, good times are had by all. And since you were the one that rolled the die, it feels like you had a role in the outcome. In CoH, it's just you and the computer. You do an attack and the computer just says it missed. There's no laughs or good times. Just you and the computer that decided you failed.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

You're sounding far too wound up over "oh no, I might rarely miss." This is not "screw you" or arbitrary "punishment."

 

If I want a game where I never miss and never have things not work perfectly, I let Progress Quest run in the background. Doesn't even require player interaction.

In what way is it not a "screw you" if you've built up enough accuracy and tohit bonuses to have a final chance to hit over 100% and still miss? Removing the cap doesn't remove all challenge or make every attack automatically autohit. You still have to get there with your build. The only difference is that now it's actually possible.

[Doomguide2005]

19 minutes ago, Vanden said:

So you're saying the critical function provided by the 95% to hit cap is "screw you?" No, I won't accept that. Games should not arbitrarily punish players.

They don't,  they arbitrarily challenge you.  You miss, for whatever reason, and have to adapt to the unexpected change.  The clamping of your To Hit merely ensures that element continues to exist in the game regardless.

 

As in "No plan survives contact with the enemy" or as Greycat put it "Stuff happens".  

 

You could eliminate that but you risk the game becoming City of Statues about to be Obliterated, challenge gone ... totally gone.  There's plenty of threads already endlessly debated endgame balance and difficulty.  The only real challenge left would be 1) designing a build that reaches 95+% and 2) funding it

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

They don't,  they arbitrarily challenge you.

I'm not sure if what you think "arbitrary" means is what it actually means.

 

6 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

You could eliminate that but you risk the game becoming City of Statues about to be Obliterated, challenge gone ... totally gone.  There's plenty of threads already endlessly debated endgame balance and difficulty.  The only real challenge left would be 1) designing a build that reaches 95+% and 2) funding it

So this change would somehow also remove the enemy's ability to attack or debuff us? Make it impossible for enemies to be so spread out our AoEs can't reach them? Stop ambushes from spawning while we're in the middle of the fight? No, it wouldn't do any of those things. All it would do is take that X dps you're packing and stop turning it into X * .95 dps.