Sooo, Energy Melee Future [re: The Process]

[Solarverse]

37 minutes ago, macskull said:

There's a difference between "thing gets nerfed in PvE only because of PvP" and "thing gets nerfed in PvE because of PvE and PvP." My point was the former case has happened only one time ever in the 16-and-a-half-year history of this game, while the vast majority of nerfs that people point to and go "see! PvP ruins everything!" happened because of the latter case. To wit:

• Travel power suppression absolutely affected PvE and I did not say otherwise. Pretending it was introduced just because of PvP is pretty disingenuous though. Starting with Issue 13, PvP had a different implementation of travel suppression than PvE yet PvE travel suppression was kept in the game. If it was designed to be a PvP-only nerf it would have been reverted.
   

You may feel that is being disingenuous, but I feel that actually believing that Travel Power suppression had anything to do whatsoever with PvE is naive.

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• I can't find any references to a placate nerf in the patch notes - what are you referring to?

There are a LOT of power changes that are not listed on those issue releases. Without having an archive of the original patch notes, that's going to be a hard case to prove. Honestly, I was not even sure if I was going to be able to prove anything at all so I did the best I could with what I could find. However, the nerf to placate is that it used to be a placate that placed you back in full hide which rendered you completely invisible to anyone around you, it was then nerfed and instead placed you in a psudohide state...this came even after Castle (I think it was Castle, might have been Jack Emmert) told us that Stalkers would not be seeing a nerf on the forums. Psudohide (I'm sure you remember the term) was introduced due to PvP at this time. So now instead of placate being a sort of AoE, it became a single target only. The other nerf with Placate was that it was changed to where if a player had a DoT on them, it removed the effects of Placate, which negatively impacted Spines stalkers since Spines had a Dot with almost every attack they had. It rendered Placate near useless. This was also changed due to PvP and still negatively affects Spines Stalkers today in PvE.

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On the other hand, here are some quality-of-life changes that happened as a result of PvP changes and ended up making their way over to PvE:

• Non-offensive toggles not dropping when mezzed
• Melee attack range increased from 5ft to 7ft and made unaffected by -range
• Tanker/Scrapper/Brute taunt powers deal -75% range to affected targets

You might interpret my posting as being confrontational, but I'm honestly tired of having to constantly correct misinformation about this game's relationship between powers balance and PvP.

I never argued that it did not also come with positive changes. Of course it did, I know it did because I was here when it happened, haha. However, my primary point was two things. Energy Transfer was nerfed completely due to PvP and any implication the Devs made that suggests that it was a PvE nerf and not a PvP nerf was a bold faced lie. I believe that if anyone believes otherwise, they are naive and will believe anything. The second point I was making (which is also the truth) was that the Devs told us from the very beginning that they would not nerf PvE due to PvP...they wanted for us to be rest assured that this would not happen. We actually believed that crap too...myself included. Those were the days that I defended the Devs against anything negative people would say about them. However, this was told to us directly by Jack Emmert, and we all know Jack Emmert is a low life liar who has proven himself to be a liar time and again...however, back then, none of us knew any better so we all bought it hook, line and sinker.

 

But yes, there were indeed some good changes that came due to PvP, I will not deny that.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

snip

Summing up all this again, from the points I've been making: if all of these changes were actually due solely to PvP and not PvE, I could see an argument for these nerfs in a pre-Issue 13 world. However, given the ability to pretty much completely separate a power's PvE and PvP attributes, the fact none of these changes were reverted after Issue 13 means one of two things.

1. These changes weren't actually made only because of PvP, or
2. The developers lied about not changing things for PvP and then did not care enough to revert the changes once they were able to even though players felt strongly about them.

Which one of those do you suppose it is? I'll give you a hint: it's not the answer behind door number two. Especially the travel suppression point - on Homecoming, right now, there is no travel suppression in PvP yet PvE travel suppression still exists. I can practically guarantee you if I tagged in a Homecoming dev right now they'd tell you removing travel suppression from PvE is a non-starter.

 

(Sidebar, re: patch notes - the wiki has the full contents of every patch note from the first post-launch patch on May 5th, 2004 until the last I24 beta patch on August 23rd, 2012, as well as somewhat spotty patch note coverage for post-I24 changes.)

[Solarverse]

49 minutes ago, macskull said:

Summing up all this again, from the points I've been making: if all of these changes were actually due solely to PvP and not PvE, I could see an argument for these nerfs in a pre-Issue 13 world. However, given the ability to pretty much completely separate a power's PvE and PvP attributes, the fact none of these changes were reverted after Issue 13 means one of two things.

1. These changes weren't actually made only because of PvP, or
2. The developers lied about not changing things for PvP and then did not care enough to revert the changes once they were able to even though players felt strongly about them.

Which one of those do you suppose it is? I'll give you a hint: it's not the answer behind door number two. Especially the travel suppression point - on Homecoming, right now, there is no travel suppression in PvP yet PvE travel suppression still exists. I can practically guarantee you if I tagged in a Homecoming dev right now they'd tell you removing travel suppression from PvE is a non-starter.

Travel Power suppression was lifted in PvE though...for the most part. It is nowhere near as severe as it used to be and is barely noticeable. They just didn't revert it fully back to what it was. I'm fairly certain that it is the same in PvP which is why I believe that when using Arena, you have the option to lift the travel power suppression. I could be wrong on that, it's been a good long while since I have done PvP in this game. I used to PvP religiously, however, I just don't have the heart for it like I used to.

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(Sidebar, re: patch notes - the wiki has the full contents of every patch note from the first post-launch patch on May 5th, 2004 until the last I24 beta patch on August 23rd, 2012, as well as somewhat spotty patch note coverage for post-I24 changes.)

Mind linking that to me? Or are you speaking of the same one that I pointed out to you? Because if so, I think if you take a look, anything past issue (correction) 10 has absolutely zero nerfs mentioned...and I know powers were nerfed past issue 10, heh.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Another point that I enjoy bringing up: ever since Issue 4's launch there has been exactly one power which was nerfed in PvE solely for PvP reasons - Hurricane.

Let's be honest for a moment, Mac. Hurricane is that only power that the live devs admitted that they nerfed because of PvE. Just because they said it doesn't mean it's true. The live devs are only human and it's not above anyone to lie, or at least not give the full truth, especially if they don't want to cause a holy s*** storm on the forums.

 

And it's not like it could have been reverted in PvE later. While they can alter damage and effects depending on whether you're in a PvE or PvP zone, I don't think they can choose which animation to use depending on which zone you're in.

 

Then the other sets came along, the ones that you had to buy, and the devs didn't revert ET back because the other sets were required by the publisher to be better so that people would purchase them.

 

*Yes. All of this is my opinion, just speculation on my part. No, I don't have any proof or citations, etc etc.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Oh stop. lol

How about you go do the work and then bring it back to quibble over some tiny aspect of what was said.

 

Changing one word from 'Only' to 'A'.. and maybe adding 'it felt'.. The statement is accurate with some opinions thrown in. Not enough reason to be busting peoples chops.

 

"ONLY A reason that was nerfed was due to PvP and Stalkers running around 2 shotting people in PvP....what really pissed me off is that the Devs said they would not nerf anything due to PvP but then it felt turned right around and did it anyway, after feeding us lame excuse after lame excuse that dodged the real reasons they were nerfing crap. Anyone with half a brain could see right through them."

 

Can we go back to being excited for EM Scrappers and getting back a little bit of the former EM glory with some new toys.

 

 

Old Patch Notes

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes

Old Issues/Game Updates

http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/game_updates/

Edited November 18, 2020 by Troo
added quibble (it's a better word)

[Bopper]

39 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Mind linking that to me?

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Patch_Notes

 

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Patch_Notes/2004-05-11

[Glacier Peak]

19 hours ago, ScarySai said:

What exactly is the point of this thread?

The OP didn't like the response received from the devs in the beta feedback section so now we're seeing it posted in another location for drama. 

 

In before people starting blaming PvP for unrelated power changes... oh wait dang too slow. 

[@Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Bopper said:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Patch_Notes/2004-05-11

 

Phew, I'm glad they finally did something about Force Bubble!

[Solarverse]

@macskull

 

I am not seeing that nerf to Placate anywhere...but I know for a fact that it happened....hell, I even left the game for a couple months to take a break from it because of that nerf. I know for a fact that it happened, I simply cannot prove it. Is it possible that the nerf came in a patch in between issues?

Actually, I can prove it somewhat. You can either watch this video from the start or start watching it from the time stamp and you will see where the placated target had a DoT on him and he still could not target or even see the Stalker....I know this because I knew both of those guys.
 

 

Now try and do that today and the DoT will break Placate and your target will simply continue to attack you as if you had done nothing at all.

 

They played on Protector server in those days. I used to have a video that showed this issue with DoTs that I made for the Devs to point out what I thought was a bug, that video is long gone now. However, the Dev got back with me and said that it was not a big and it was intended and was a result of the placate nerf. They said that because placate no longer places stalkers in full hide and they can still be seen and that since DoTs will cancel the placate early it allows the placated players under the DoT to ignore Placate and attack the Stalker as if they were never placated at all....all they had to do was simply retarget and it's back to action. I can't be the only person who remembers this?
 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The OP didn't like the response received from the devs in the beta feedback section so now we're seeing it posted in another location for drama. 

 

In before people starting blaming PvP for unrelated power changes... oh wait dang too slow. 

I have been going out of my way to show evidence for my claim...so if you want to cast some dirt on me, the least you could do is...oh, I don't know...prove me wrong? But nah, you go right on ahead and keep throwing dirt on me...if that's the best you've got...

 

P.S. you clearly have not even read the OP since that is just the exact opposite to what he did...but hey dirt slinger, you go right on ahead mighty smiter of dirt singing.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Solarverse

[Jimmy]

Well, this isn't going anywhere helpful, probably time to lock the thread.

 

Regarding the OP - the timing of those things was merely a coincidence. The weekly discussion topics are community voted, not chosen by us. The Energy Melee rework was in progress for a long time, we just didn't have the resources to do a proper testing / polish pass until recently.