Squishies Epic Armors grant 3 Mag Protection?

[Riverdusk]

10 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

I don't see how it is anything less than lazy or ignorant to not use the tools given to the player to avoid the situation of being CC'd, especially when the tool in question, Break Free, is a core part of the gameplay. Hell, you have to actually pay for the privilege of not receiving them.

 

So, excuse my tone, but what I see is not a problem with the game, but a problem with someone's playstyle. Unless hard numbers can be found that show that yes, actually the AT's in question do need Mez Protection, I can't really see how the proposed change is necessary.

Necessary no.  As just another option (among the many already), would be nice.  If you want to just depend on break frees (or P2W, or incarnate) and save a power pick, you'd still be free to do so.

[arthurh35353]

Well, I just dropped in with a brand new character and basically bought my team Defense Amplifiers for anyone that wanted it as we moshed our way through Death From Below and it was ridiculously fun not getting mezzed hard by certain bosses and AVs.

 

And Defense Amplifiers are certainly better than armors, as it's an auto power that activates instantly if you get KO'd. I can't see myself wanting to play squishies without having this buff (or at least mezz protection) ever again.

 

Technically, adding it to epic armors would actually make it more balanced comparatively to Defense Amplification. 

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

Well, I just dropped in with a brand new character and basically bought my team Defense Amplifiers for anyone that wanted it as we moshed our way through Death From Below and it was ridiculously fun not getting mezzed hard by certain bosses and AVs.

 

And Defense Amplifiers are certainly better than armors, as it's an auto power that activates instantly if you get KO'd. I can't see myself wanting to play squishies without having this buff (or at least mezz protection) ever again.

 

Technically, adding it to epic armors would actually make it more balanced comparatively to Defense Amplification. 

Yep, they really are kind of OP.  I could definitely see the argument for nerfing/removing the P2W amp honestly.  They are the first thing I buy on every new character I make (at level 1 you can buy 8 hours worth for 8k each).

[Galaxy Brain]

So, I'll just add this:

 

Being mezzed in this game sucks because all mez is basically the same where you cannot control your character for X amount of time and are a sitting duck. There's no like, wiggling free of mez or using a PBAoE to break out of a hold, its just you either don't get mezzed or have to pop a pill.

 

That's not too bad.... except there is a large chunk of AT's that never ever have to deal with it basically ever, and they have massive leads in general survival + usually great damage dealing potential.

 

Like, take a Brute or Scrapper vs a Blaster. Yes, the blaster definitely deals more damage but the combined armor and mez protections on the melee AT's are a MUCH bigger gap between the damage they all deal out. A Scrapper will dish out say... 80% of the Blaster's damage but be 4x as tough and never ever have to stop. That to me doesn't seem equitable, and having the epics which come late into the build provide like 1/4th the mez protection in a limited way I do not see as game breaking. Hell, make it thematic so each epic armor protects vs a specific mez and that'd be nice.

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Necessary no.  As just another option (among the many already), would be nice.  If you want to just depend on break frees (or P2W, or incarnate) and save a power pick, you'd still be free to do so.

"Necessary, no."

End of discussion then.

There are viable options for avoiding/resisting mez/etc already in the game.  And yes, they are egalitarian.
 

Quote

egalitarian
[ ih-gal-i-tair-ee-uhn ]

asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life.

 

 

6 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Well, I just dropped in with a brand new character and basically bought my team Defense Amplifiers for anyone that wanted it as we moshed our way through Death From Below and it was ridiculously fun not getting mezzed hard by certain bosses and AVs.

 

And Defense Amplifiers are certainly better than armors, as it's an auto power that activates instantly if you get KO'd. I can't see myself wanting to play squishies without having this buff (or at least mezz protection) ever again.

 

Technically, adding it to epic armors would actually make it more balanced comparatively to Defense Amplification. 

So you're now comparing a buff that can be obtained by anyone to a blast-centric Epic set not acquirable until the mid 30's.

Not sure how you wrangle "balance" out of that.

Probably because what's being expressed isn't "balance", but personal preference.

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, I'll just add this:

 

Being mezzed in this game sucks because all mez is basically the same where you cannot control your character for X amount of time and are a sitting duck. There's no like, wiggling free of mez or using a PBAoE to break out of a hold, its just you either don't get mezzed or have to pop a pill.

 

That's not too bad.... except there is a large chunk of AT's that never ever have to deal with it basically ever, and they have massive leads in general survival + usually great damage dealing potential.

 

Like, take a Brute or Scrapper vs a Blaster. Yes, the blaster definitely deals more damage but the combined armor and mez protections on the melee AT's are a MUCH bigger gap between the damage they all deal out. A Scrapper will dish out say... 80% of the Blaster's damage but be 4x as tough and never ever have to stop. That to me doesn't seem equitable, and having the epics which come late into the build provide like 1/4th the mez protection in a limited way I do not see as game breaking. Hell, make it thematic so each epic armor protects vs a specific mez and that'd be nice.

Uhm.  Look again.  Most melee types don't get their mez protection right out the gate (BioArmor's one of the rare few).

They get it at RELATIVELY low levels.  But it's NOT automatic.

As for not seeing it as game-breaking.

This is because you WANT IT.  It has nothing to do with actual game balance.
This is you simply asserting personal preference and acting as if it is factual and quantifiable.

If you can present the MATH for why current levels of mez avoidance and other forms of mez resistance/abatement aren't enough, you might have a case.

If you hate mez that much, play an AT that actually has rapid access to mez protection!

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That's not too bad.... except there is a large chunk of AT's that never ever have to deal with it basically ever, and they have massive leads in general survival + usually great damage dealing potential.

... because they can't engage first (other than the stalker) and if they didn't have built in mez protection they would be doing zero damage. They *have* to get into melee range and stay there to do anything -where there are far *more* mezzes - versus the ranged characters.

 

The two are not equivalent.

 

If you want range and you absolutely cannot deal with mez, ever - run a Sentinel. Done.

[America's Angel]

6 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I could definitely see the argument for nerfing/removing the P2W amp honestly...

From my cold dead hands.

[Tad Cooper]

Why do squishies need mez protection? Well, why do melees need mez protection? Because back in the day getting mez'd killed your toggles, which meant if you got nailed you were super dead in about two seconds. All the Superman and Wolverine wannabes didn't like that. That's not the case any more, so in fact they DON'T need it. No one is entitled to anything. We should remove mez protection entirely. Maybe switch to the PVP rules where it all becomes resistance.

 

If we're sticking with protection, then I don't think OP's idea goes far enough.

 

There are five mez states in this game. Immobilize, Stun, Fear, Confuse, and Hold. We should proliferate those powers among NPCs at all levels, especially the 5th Column because I want to see some salt from the "PI radios! No caves! No Carnival!" people. We should change armor powers to only cover three mez states. We should make sure that every support set ALSO has mez protection for three states, but their power affects the whole team. The trick here is that every set gets a different three states they protect from. You want to be covered in all situations? Get some friends or some break frees.

 

I guess we could let the armor powers affect the whole team too. Balanced.

 

As a side not that I like to bring up every time I see a conversation like this: Y'all get real whiny whenever buffing "squishies" comes up. It's been like this since live. It's always met with wailing and gnashing of teeth. Don't know what you're all so worried about. The defensive gap between melee and ranged has been gone a LONG time. IOs killed it. Melee is still easy mode. Making support classes lives SLIGHTLY easier isn't gonna make it so people don't want to play with you.

 

Also the fact that some of you are genuinely rattling off a fucking pay to win power as if that makes OPs suggestion irrelevant is mind boggling to me. Those are bonuses, not balance. The "use break frees" people have slightly more of an argument, but you're going to have to explain to me how ranged ATs are SO much more powerful than melees that they need to be dependent on the purple candy and melees don't.

[Hyperstrike]

4 minutes ago, Tad Cooper said:

As a side not that I like to bring up every time I see a conversation like this: Y'all get real whiny whenever buffing "squishies" comes up. It's been like this since live. It's always met with wailing and gnashing of teeth. Don't know what you're all so worried about. The defensive gap between melee and ranged has been gone a LONG time. IOs killed it. Melee is still easy mode. Making support classes lives SLIGHTLY easier isn't gonna make it so people don't want to play with you.

 

Also the fact that some of you are genuinely rattling off a fucking pay to win power as if that makes OPs suggestion irrelevant is mind boggling to me. Those are bonuses, not balance. The "use break frees" people have slightly more of an argument, but you're going to have to explain to me how ranged ATs are SO much more powerful than melees that they need to be dependent on the purple candy and melees don't.

IOs killed it?

In late game?  When PCs are supposed to be genuinely powerful?
Post-Incarnate?  When you're acknowledged to be OP?

At 10th-15th level?  Nah man.

At intermediate levels, if you can afford it, you can equip for Mez protection.
But you should also be learning the skills for Mez avoidance as well.
And "I don't want to!" isn't an acceptable answer.

As for the Amplifier.
You're spending Inf.  Not actual cash.  So please stop trying to grab a visceral reaction to the joking P2W moniker.
It's there as a convenience.  And it's not meant to be a default state.

It also helps suck inf out of the system, acting as a brake on inflation.

Can't afford it, invest a bit of personal time writing a macro to combine inspies into breakfrees.

You want an explanation?

Ranged ATs can do most of their damage without ever coming into the range of melee Mez.  And, by staying at range, they can avoid large chunks of damage, as well as Mez.
Melee AT, quite simply, CANNOT.

As soon as I can throw a KO Blow, or snipe a Foot Stomp, come talk to me.

[ScarySai]

I'd say the need to IO or incarn for it is the only thing keeping them in check, at this point.

 

I'm all for adding power over removing it almost all the time, but I don't think this needs to be changed. Blasters are crazy strong finally after essentially being floor decorations for a majority of the game's lifespan. They're fine for the most part, many blast primaries need some work of course - like elec and AR.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Uhm.  Look again.  Most melee types don't get their mez protection right out the gate (BioArmor's one of the rare few).

 

They get it at RELATIVELY low levels.  But it's NOT automatic.

Its usually lvl 10, even earlier for Tankers, that's basically right away.  Lvl 10 takes what.... 1-2 hrs of gameplay if that nowadays? Lvl 35 outside of farms has you deal with thousands and thousands of enemies across many missions that would mez you, especially from the teens on when you do in fact start seeing ranged mezzes. 

 

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

As for not seeing it as game-breaking.

This is because you WANT IT.  It has nothing to do with actual game balance.
This is you simply asserting personal preference and acting as if it is factual and quantifiable.

If you can present the MATH for why current levels of mez avoidance and other forms of mez resistance/abatement aren't enough, you might have a case.

If you hate mez that much, play an AT that actually has rapid access to mez protection!

 

Im not sure what math would even be used here, but I can give this. Armor sets grant between mag 8 and mag 12 mez protection on average to basically all Mez effects with 2 sets (Fire, Dark) having a KB hole which sucks, and then the other common holes being Fear and Confuse which end up being both very rare and not *as* debilitating as the other mez effects. 

 

If you look at any random mez from enemies, especially ranged mez, they are almost always Mag 3 and they have mez durations that are shorter than their recharges. Given a melee's average mag 10 protection, 4 mez attacks of the same type would need to land at the same time in order to actually mez the character, 5 if they're a tanker. 

 

With each of those mezzes usually only having a 50% chance to hit you, along with just normal gameplay usually interrupting them being Knockdowns, defeats, etc (Melees use active anti-mez too!!), you'll essentially never be mezzed in normal gameplay as an armored AT.

 

With squishies, they only need 1 mez to land and that's it. If past lvl 35 they could afford being hit by a single Mez, I think that would not be too bad in all honesty given that when mez protection is given in-game its practical immunity as it stands.

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

I don't agree with this idea as presented, but I do think it's true that mezz wrecks players. Every character I make builds for mezz protection eventually, because it's thrown around absent mindedly by so many enemies. Getting mezzed not only shuts off any armor you have, it prevents eating inspirations other than the magic mezz breaker.

 

The Armor sets were originally created for a more traditional Tank-and-Spank meta that no longer exists. They got grandfathered into total immunity, with effects felt down stream for years to come.

 

I am going to mostly say no to the idea. However I also personally think that in the end game there should be some newly added mezzes which no one has total immunity to but which don't totally destroy the character. Possibly Tankers could shrug these mezzes off quicker than other characters. However what we shouldn't have (and pretty much no game other than this one has) is 1/2 the characters being totally immune to mezz. I don't think squishies should be totally immune but I also don't think melees should be either. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Im not sure what math would even be used here, but I can give this. Armor sets grant between mag 8 and mag 12 mez protection on average to basically all Mez effects with 2 sets (Fire, Dark) having a KB hole which sucks, and then the other common holes being Fear and Confuse which end up being both very rare and not *as* debilitating as the other mez effects. 

Side note but I would love to see confuse come into play more it. It would ruin people.

[America's Angel]

10 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Side note but I would love to see confuse come into play more it. It would ruin people.

"Oh no, the enemy mob confused me!"

*Switches to PVP build*

[oedipus_tex]

The new mezzes I'd like to see added are stuff like:

• Enthrall - Cannot use attack powers. Compelled to use any buffs you have on enemy team.
• Suspend- Similar to Hold, but toggles do not drop.  

 

Basically as the character progresses into the incarnate levels and begins to encounter cosmic, astral, god-like, and celestial opponents, or just more sophisticated arch villains, the mezzes they used to shrug off become more threatening. In game mechanics terms, this would offer the dev team a fresh slate to rethink mezz and offer at least the occasional instance to interupt a Tanker or Brute.

 

Note some version of Suspend already exists in some of the iTrials, e.g. with Anti-Matters Freeze Ray which hits everyone regardless of their mezz protection. 

[arthurh35353]

I think this topic would be an interesting social studies paper. 

 

I don't think Enthrall is *ever* a good idea. You should never lose control of what powers you are using on people. Bad enough when you get taunted or confused, but at least you have the choice of what to do or not.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Side note but I would love to see confuse come into play more it. It would ruin people.

Would have to be a really high-mag confuse to counter the bazillion stacks of Tactics most teams are running these days.

[MTeague]

On 11/21/2020 at 2:21 PM, arthurh35353 said:

I'm not actually understanding why the negativity against +3 mag protection in armors then.

Philosophically, for game balance, the characters with the strongest offensive powers should have the weakest defense. The characters who can basically never die should have the lowest damage output. That is the source of why I dislike the idea of handing out toggle mez protection to squishies.

 

Honestly, if it were up to me, I would remove all P2W amplifiers from the game, forevermore, putting nothing in their place, starting tomorrow. 

They're an INF sink sure, but they're unbalancing and just lead to more people speeding to 50 and then being bored after they've sped lots of characters to 50. 

 

I'd make a lot of other changes that many posters would really hate if it were up to me as well. 

There's still enough of what I think the game should be that I still enjoy it. 

But every bit of power creep, even reading theorectical proposals like "why can't I have access to my Alpha even when I'm exemplared", eats away at this. 

 

Maybe I'm hitting a burnout phase after playing nonstop since Jun 2019 and need to pause it for a bit. These things happen. 

 

But my kneejerk reaction was "sure we can do this, as long as that same toggle that gives you mez protection, drops your damage output by 50% and disables all damage procs", in a very spiteful way to offer a deal I'm sure NO ONE would ever accept. 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Philosophically, for game balance, the characters with the strongest offensive powers should have the weakest defense. The characters who can basically never die should have the lowest damage output. That is the source of why I dislike the idea of handing out toggle mez protection to squishies.

 

 

  

 

Per my testing, Scrappers are faster than Blaster for clearing a mission (a decent damage metric) outside of Blaster Fire Blast on:

 

Spines
War Mace

Dark Melee

Claws

Titan Weapons

Savage Melee

Rad Melee

Dual Blades

 

The slowest Scrapper time is also faster than the following Blaster Primaries:

 

Dark Blast

Dual Pistols

Elec Blast

Psy Blast

Assaults Rifle

Sonic Attack

 

Nearly half the Blast sets cleared missions slower than the slowest Scrapper sets, and likewise nearly half the Scrapper sets were faster than all but one of the Blaster sets. 

 

Total Scrapper runs: 200

Scrapper Deaths: 14 (7%)

 

Total Blaster Runs: 130

Blaster Deaths: 35 (27%)

 

 

Scrappers were nearly 4x safer while still blitzing through the same amount of mobs in the same exact mission FASTER than Blasters across hundreds of tests. These mobs did not have significant mez attacks, at least none that were ranged, but if they did the gap would be even wider as the Blasters would have had to slow down even more. 

 

This is pretty anecdotal, but I feel that the balance of "High Damage, low survival" is not as equal as it appears when we have Scrappers, brutes, and Stalkers all being death machines that do not theoretically match a Blaster, but come close enough while having WAY more survival. 

[Monos King]

37 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is pretty anecdotal, but I feel that the balance of "High Damage, low survival" is not as equal as it appears when we have Scrappers, brutes, and Stalkers all being death machines that do not theoretically match a Blaster, but come close enough while having WAY more survival. 

Well, that's because the roles are divided by AT and not strictly position (melee vs ranged). Low damage high survivability is really only tanks, and kheldian dwarfs, literally everything after that will do medium to extreme damage with the exception of defenders and most trolls. What keeps that damage potential in line are limitations to survivability - health, armor, and especially mez. You see that observation in the OPs complaints about mez lowering dps, who didn't realize it's a very intentional balancing element. 

 

The classes with armor will definitely be soloing better because they don't have to be as watchful. But the game isn't based on soloing, it's based on what you can bring to the team. More importantly though, what level were those runs conducted at? And what difficulty settings. This is important because there are challenges squishies simply aren't entitled to triumph in.

[Razor Cure]

Comparing scrapper and blaster clear times does not work that well. The scrapper has teh advantage of running into a mob and ALL of said mob piling around him, meaning Aoe's are nearly always hitting max targets. The blaster cant do that, since most Blast sets have one AoE and a cone (and a nukce that is on a MUCH slower recharge than scrapper aoes). Some aoes make mobs scatter too, meaning even less aoe killing.

Regardless, the issue here was Mez Prot, and the blaster (especially if they have an aoe immob, kb, or ku) can STAY out of range of every single melee mez a mob has. Every single one. Of course, if the blaster wants to melee..then they should be expecting that extra danger.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Monos King, @Razor Cure,

 

These runs were all done at lvl 50 on standardized SO builds at +0/x3 with minimal herding potential due to the selected map. Each encounter was roughly the same size for both the scrappers and blasters (minimal spawn was about 5 enemies, max was around 9ish). 

 

Blasters would fare better with more targets in theory, but they'd have to be able to survive said targets.

 

As for the entitlement thing I find that a poor argument. If anything it should be a thrilling skill-based experience to roll a glass cannon through hard content instead of just "welp, can't actually do it or i can do it but I need maximum cheese"

Edited November 23, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Monos King]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

These runs were all done at lvl 50 on standardized SO builds at +0/x3 with minimal herding potential due to the selected map. Each encounter was roughly the same size for both the scrappers and blasters (minimal spawn was about 5 enemies, max was around 9ish). 

Ok that's what I expected. There's no way a non armor class would out solo an armor class without themselves having armor, but once they get defense and survivability from like IOs and epics it'd be a different story.

 

Summary of my feelings on this topic: I don't mind blasters and other squishies getting some sort of and or greater mez prot options in a separate power like Indominable Will and Acrobatics, but still don't think they deserve or need any additional mez protection from the basic epic armors. The ATO mez protection idea being proliferated is also pretty cool.

[Galaxy Brain]

I think solo is where it matters most though, as in a team you have supports that do provide mez protection and at least added support in general to shore it up. When solo though, being mezzed is just not fun.