Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, KeepDistance said:

I take this to mean you'll be addressing LFG teleporting too at some point? That is a teleport power that has zero investment, no cooldown, and a plethora of destinations.

Highly unlikely. It's a very messy, very inconvenient system. The downsides of using it (must be solo / quit the team, can't be on a TF, limited destinations, destinations that are level-locked, and a very clunky UI) far outweigh the benefits, and therefore doesn't have anywhere near the same impact on the game. Plus, it wouldn't be simple to decouple it from the other functionality of the LFG menu.

[Goldierays]

55 minutes ago, Goldieray said:

Is there an issue with characters who had the Monitor Duty/Rapid Response badges before the update not getting the teleporter powers associated with them?

 

I've checked a couple characters that had the Monitor Duty badge already and they have no Monitor Duty teleporter even after some post-update hours logged by a base portal.

 

Whereas a newer character that just got the badge today, post-update, did get the Monitor Duty teleporter power with it right away.

 

Where should one post issues/questions like this that are not complaint or counter-complaint?

 

From the patch notes, I thought it was here. But maybe not.

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, Goldieray said:

Where should one post issues/questions like this that are not complaint or counter-complaint?

 

From the patch notes, I thought it was here. But maybe not.

Sorry, I missed that.

 

The power doesn't appear automatically. Day Job powers require that you be logged out at the relevant destination in order to earn charges. See the Wiki for more info.

 

If you logged in by the base portal after i27, then it would've retroactively counted the time (as Day Jobs are applied based on when and where you log in, not out).

[Blackfeather]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Sorry, I missed that.

 

The power doesn't appear automatically. Day Job powers require that you be logged out at the relevant destination in order to earn charges. See the Wiki for more info.

 

If you logged in by the base portal after i27, then it would've retroactively counted the time (as Day Jobs are applied based on when and where you log in, not out).

Speaking about that, I messaged you a little while back in PMs about posting the specific formulas involved with that on the HC Wiki club forum - you mentioned reminding you about it here. Would definitely be interested in seeing them!

[Jimmy]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

Speaking about that, I messaged you a little while back in PMs about posting the specific formulas involved with that on the HC Wiki club forum - you mentioned reminding you about it here. Would definitely be interested in seeing them!

Yeah, later this week, I've got a lot to get through, plus I'm actually playing the game on the live servers for the first time in months now that all my test server characters have been mercilessly discarded 🙂

[Blackfeather]

Just now, Jimmy said:

Yeah, later this week, I've got a lot to get through, plus I'm actually playing the game on the live servers for the first time in months now that all my test server characters have been mercilessly discarded 🙂

Definitely understandable! Have fun, and much thanks for the HC team's hard work. 🙂

[Goldierays]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Sorry, I missed that.

 

The power doesn't appear automatically. Day Job powers require that you be logged out at the relevant destination in order to earn charges. See the Wiki for more info.

 

If you logged in by the base portal after i27, then it would've retroactively counted the time (as Day Jobs are applied based on when and where you log in, not out).

Thanks Jimmy. I had logged in and out, but looks like it just needed to be for a little longer. Go figure!

[Blackbird71]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I disagree. The 2s~ cast times are not equivalent to the travel time saved on the other end (or by the brand new teleport destinations). Plus when using LRT you actually save even more time, as you skip the base entirely.

You're assuming the base is a transit point and not the destination.

 

39 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Honestly, feedback on specific components or powers of this system that ignores the wider context just isn't that helpful. Feedback that boils down to "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment" is also not that helpful, because it's a viewpoint that's fundamentally not shared by anyone on the team.

Reducing feedback and complaints about the complexity of the multiple powers now required to maintain close to the same rate of travel as "I want to cheat," is not only unhelpful to the discussion, but is also just plain rude.

 

40 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Travel powers exist for a reason. Trainers, stores, and crafting locations exist out in the world for a reason. All of the zones in the game have various connections to each other for a reason. All of these other travel options existed in the live game for a reason. The command obviated huge parts of the game. That's not a good thing. If you think otherwise, then I'm not sure how you ever enjoyed the game during retail.

By this logic, you should split the trams back into the green and yellow lines.

 

The fact is, a certain level of travel is part of the game, and a certain part is tedium for tedium's sake.  We agree on that, or else you wouldn't have implemented several of the changes you did.  Where we disagree is where to draw the line.  Personally, I think travel within a zone is a significant part of the game.  Travel between zones, or more importantly, travel to bases, is tedium and should be reduced as much as possible.  This is not accomplished by requiring a plethora of powers for regular interzone travel at reasonable speeds.  Just in the past 20 minutes, I had to use three separate powers to change between zones because of parts of a mission chain I was sent to (the actual travel took place in under 5 minutes, as speaking to one contact sent me to another and another before finally going to a third zone for a mission.  Why should I have to maintain 3, 4, or more powers to quickly get around between zones so that I can actually play the content?

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

You're assuming the base is a transit point and not the destination.

If the base is your destination, then all of these options let you get there, so I'm still not sure what your point is.

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

Reducing feedback and complaints about the complexity of the multiple powers now required to maintain close to the same rate of travel as "I want to cheat," is not only unhelpful to the discussion, but is also just plain rude.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I specifically said "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment". That's not the same thing as concerns about complexity and implementation. If you read very next sentence, you'll see that.

 

Blackbird, based on your replies here and throughout the beta process, I really don't feel you're discussing this in good faith, so I'm just going to put an end to our exchange here because it's not going anywhere helpful for anyone.

[Gunrunner]

I stopped reading through this thread about halfway through.  Most of it was folks whinging about stuff we've been going over for the last few months or so.

 

I'm excited to see the new TP powers.  After thinking long and hard on it (and parking every toon that mattered next to a base portal), I think it'll all work out.

 

But.  But.  BUT.  We really need to see an in-depth explanation of just what this game-breaking exploit was.  Now it's been leaked that this 'sploit has been around since Live, and I cannot believe it was only recently discovered.  Y'all have to do better then that.  The finest QOL bit that has ever been, has been removed and replaced with a plies of possibly useful replacements, and I for one want to know why.  "Oh, it was never supposed to be there!" simply does not cut it.

[Blackbird71]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If the base is your destination, then all of these options let you get there, so I'm still not sure what your point is.

They don't let you reach the base as quickly or as frequently as could be done previously, ergo, the new method is not faster.

 

8 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If the base is your destination, then all of these options let you get there, so I'm still not sure what your point is.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I specifically said "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment". That's not the same thing as concerns about complexity and implementation. If you read very next sentence, you'll see that.

Blackbird, based on your replies here and throughout the beta process, I really don't feel you're discussing this in good faith, so I'm just going to put an end to our exchange here because it's not going anywhere helpful for anyone.

My arguments have always been about the complexity and implementation; if you reread the feedback threads you will see that.  Yet you came at me with an accusation of wanting to "cheat."  That was rude and insulting, and completely unhelpful.  So far as discussing in good faith, I could make the same comments about you, especially given these recent aspersions.  Just because you disagree with my opinions does not mean I am not arguing in good faith.

[Jimmy]

4 minutes ago, Gunrunner said:

But.  But.  BUT.  We really need to see an in-depth explanation of just what this game-breaking exploit was.  Now it's been leaked that this 'sploit has been around since Live, and I cannot believe it was only recently discovered.  Y'all have to do better then that.  The finest QOL bit that has ever been, has been removed and replaced with a plies of possibly useful replacements, and I for one want to know why.  "Oh, it was never supposed to be there!" simply does not cut it.

See here:

12 hours ago, Jimmy said:

The following change was omitted from the beta patch notes:

• Fixed several exploits with /enterbasefrompasscode and other related commands
  • It was previously possible to enter any map in the game, from any location, at any point in time - even mission maps, bases, and arena matches belonging to other players
  • We aren't going to go into any more detail as these exploits may or may not be functional on other servers

[Bastille Boy]

For me, I think the simplest way to adapt to these changes on my many alts is this:

1. Go to Pocket D and find a quiet corner. Go mostly AFK for an hour. Yay! Now I have Long Range Teleporter.
2. Alternatively, collect exploration badges from one zone (most likely Kings Row for heroes, Cap au Diable for villains). Don't bother with other exploration badges. This is only to get Long Range Teleporter.
3. When it's time to zone, activate Long Range Teleporter, then use /enterbasefrompasscode as before.

I can't see a reason to collect more exploration badges for Long Range Teleporter.

 

It may be desirable to have additional zone travel powers for toons that are going to be doing fast task forces that involve zoning more than once every 10 minutes. But for casual play, this is fine.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Bastille Boy

[brasilgringo]

7 hours ago, Crowe said:

I'm already hearing the griping in SG chat and in game.  I don't think enough players actually use the forums and weighed in on this facet of the changes.  If there were exploits with the original, it should have been removed promptly.  Instead, it was left in place for over a year and during that time became a de facto feature of the game.  And it was enjoyable and made certain activities less burdensome (the Numina multi-zone hunt X mission, for example).  Perhaps if the LRT accolade was account-wide, it wouldn't have been such a bitter pill to swallow.  The re-design of the game encourages alting but the new LRT system penalizes it.  I have 70+ characters... I just looked at several of my 50s and they have NO destinations for LRT.  I'm not a badger but in addition to the penalty of per-character LRT, I'm also now forced to become a badger multiple times over to achieve what was taken. I'm certainly not happy with this change and would be thrilled to roll it back even if that took the all of the other new things with it. 

This. At least SWTOR makes datacrons account-wide ... making LRT account-wide would go a long way towards easing the pain of this change.  Honestly one thing that made new COH so much more fun for me was using the basepasscode teleport to get around easily.  Feels like pendulum really swung too far back on this one, folks.

[brasilgringo]

3 hours ago, TheIndigoFire said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I played mainly for RP, content, and not PvP since I’m not a fan of the PvP system in this game. The macro was a godsend because it made solo playing and traveling between zones for TFs that much easier. The Homecoming team has added so many quality of life ideas to the game that I love. But, I feel that this is a step backwards. 

I agree 100%

[Jacke]

On 11/25/2020 at 1:32 AM, Goldierays said:

Thanks Jimmy. I had logged in and out, but looks like it just needed to be for a little longer. Go figure!

The short version on Day Job badges and charging Day Job and Day Job Accolade powers (if they have charges or time, as opposed to giving a buff or reward bonus), is:

• Day Job Badges take 100 hours logged out to unlock (4 days and 4 hours).  Only exception is Patroller/Criminal which needs 30 bars of Patrol XP earned.
• Day Job Accolades need two Day Job Badges to unlock.
• After earning, Day Job and Day Job Accolade Powers with charges take 7 days to fully charge, to 30 uses (most common). 10 tickets (Invention and Tailor discounts), 2 hours (Traveller's Jet Pack), 30 minutes (Gladiator Accolade Combat Shield).
• Traveler's Jet Pack power starts charging as the Badge for it is being unlocked (Heroes Dimensional Explorer in the Shadow Shard, Villains Arachnos Official in Grandville), so it'll be charged to about 1 hour when the Badge is finally earned.
• Partial progress towards the next increment of charging is saved if you only log out for a short period of time.

EDIT: I think upon gaining badges, either Day Job or the Accolade, some of the charging rates are increased so it takes under 7 days to fully charge.  Not entirely sure about this one, but I think it does happen in some cases.

 

There was a bug that was affecting at least partial progress on Invention discount tickets, but that should be fixed now.  If you have a case now of partial progress not being saved, it's a bug and should be reported.

 

The Wiki pages still need updating with recent changes, especially for Issue 27 Page 1, but they are good sources of information.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Badges

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Hero_Day_Job_Badges

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Villain_Day_Job_Badges

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Praetorian_Day_Job_Badges

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jacke

[KeepDistance]

57 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Please don't put words into my mouth. I specifically said "I want to cheat and teleport at any time with zero investment". That's not the same thing as concerns about complexity and implementation. If you read very next sentence, you'll see that.

FWIW I read your comment the same way Blackbird71 did. I really don't feel like my feedback on this topic is going to be welcome, so I'm pretty disinclined to give it.

[Jacke]

45 minutes ago, brasilgringo said:

This. At least SWTOR makes datacrons account-wide ... making LRT account-wide would go a long way towards easing the pain of this change.  Honestly one thing that made new COH so much more fun for me was using the basepasscode teleport to get around easily.  Feels like pendulum really swung too far back on this one, folks.

I appreciate SWTOR making Datacrons account wide (I'm looking at you, Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa, with your crazy jumping, and all the other pain-in-the-arse Datacrons).

 

But Long Range Teleport is a heck of a lot easier than many a single Datacron.  1 Zone Badge Accolade or 1 hour logged on in Pocket D.  I've done the Atlas Park badges so many times I can do them without the minimap in under 10 minutes, maybe under 5.  And I often do the hour in Pocket D just to get the Time-in-Zone Badge.

 

And more Account-wide features may be coming, but there are technical issues with adding them.  All of them so far:

 

Menu > Options > Options Window > Windows Tab > Beta Features, near the bottom:

• Power Recharge Indicators:
  • Off, Bottom, Top, Center
• Chat Timestamps:
  • Disabled, 12-hour, 24-hour, 24-hour w/seconds
• Chat Timestamp Color:
  • White, Match message color

A few others option settings were recently tried as Account-wide, but they had issues interacting with other changes, especially going from Tequila to the new Homecoming Launcher, so they were reverted.  I'm sure making more account-wide features will be looked at again soon.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[Jacke]

4 minutes ago, KeepDistance said:

FWIW I read your comment the same way Blackbird71 did. I really don't feel like my feedback on this topic is going to be welcome, so I'm pretty disinclined to give it.

But if you politely but firmly make a good argument, it will always have benefit.  The devs love this game too.  They do read and pay attention.  And they did all those changes, whatever we individually think of them, for good reasons.  And as others have pointed out, feedback made the difference to many of the changes, greatly improving them from their initial form in the beta.

 

To effect new changes, you need to come half-way.  If you don't understand why the changes in Issue 27 Page 1 were done the way they were, you'll never find a way to convince the devs to think differently.  If your argument is some form of "You were wrong.  I am right.", it's not going to work.  And if you just give up, then you will not contribute to any improvement.

 

I don't like some of the things in Issue 27 Page 1, many of them in the changes to the Blaster Secondaries.  If I'm going to convince anyone to revisit some of those changes, I will have to consider the wider implications and along with others test and report.  I have to work to make things happen.

[Jimmy]

36 minutes ago, KeepDistance said:

FWIW I read your comment the same way Blackbird71 did. I really don't feel like my feedback on this topic is going to be welcome, so I'm pretty disinclined to give it.

New feedback is always welcome, and will definitely be read. We just don’t appreciate the same posters repeating their arguments and clogging up the forum - that makes it harder for us to see the posts from new contributors such as yourself.

 

I may have overstepped the mark a little with that post. A better explanation of what I was trying to say: the view that anything less than unrestricted access to /ebfp (or something identical) is unacceptable isn’t a helpful position to take, because if your position is that immovable, then there’s simply no discussion worth having.

 

There are, however, many details that we definitely were open to discussing, but obviously the scope for change is far more limited now that the beta is over. I highly recommend engaging in the beta process early if you want your feedback to be considered.

 

An example of one of those topics hotly discussed during the beta phase was the wide variety of options available. Some players wanted to combine everything, and others wanted to keep the variety.

 

Consolidating everything into a single power definitely wasn’t a majority opinion, and it’s important to take all viewpoints into account. Some consolidation was done - Pocket D became LRT instead of remaining a separate option, /ebfp was added to several powers, allowing you to use just that command more often if you want to, and the fast travel menu was added - but it’s a fine line to walk between those who want variety and those who want simplicity.

[Arli]

2 hours ago, PtownRebel said:

Wow. I've enjoyed the version I've been able to play for the last 14 months or so. I'm sorry that the "team" fundamentally thinks that I have been cheating for all that time.  Remember, the retail game failed. 

If your definition of a game failure is a publisher choosing to shut down online servers for a game, then yes - City of Heroes failed. But I would like to remind you that the game did launch in 2004, was not shut down until 2012 - and when it was shut down, it was still making a profit.

 

I would call that a rousing success - and would also like to note that City of Heroes still made top ten lists for some websites for being one of the most successful MMORPGs ever. The fact that City of Heroes lasted so long as it was, in spite of World of Warcraft and in spite of hero-themed games steadily increasing in popularity thanks to MCU actually compliments City of Heroes quite well.

No one is being penalized for using the base macro and honestly - with the tools we have now it doesn't seem like a big deal that change occurred. I can't tell you how many times I or some of my teammates accidently used the base macro when we didn't intend to, and between the LRT, Ouro portal, base transporter AND the base portal power we have a ton of options available for travel - including the LFG tool for transporting to SF/TF contacts.

[CrudeVileTerror]

@Jimmy, I appreciate your efforts to engage with the community on this topic, and I don't want to sideline the main subject too much, but I did want to address something in particular from you:

"Travel powers exist for a reason. Trainers, stores, and crafting locations exist out in the world for a reason. All of the zones in the game have various connections to each other for a reason. All of these other travel options existed in the live game for a reason. The command obviated huge parts of the game. That's not a good thing. If you think otherwise, then I'm not sure how you ever enjoyed the game during retail."

 

Would you like to take the time to work with the players who -still do- enjoy the game, Legacy Retail or otherwise, despite our criticisms and concerns, and communicate with us about how we apparently have a fundamentally different understanding from you and your fellow teammates of where the enjoyment comes from for us in this amazing game?

 

Because; I most certainly do not speak for everyone, but I've long felt we've been on a very different wavelength about what City has to offer in terms of enjoyment and meaning.

Probably not in this thread, of course, but maybe you and the Team will consider examining this more closely in the near future?  

Please?

[krj12]

I don't care for you making drastic changes to zone travel just to fix a supposed pvp exploit.     What percentage of players actually pvp,  maybe 5% at most?   

The old devs kept breaking pve for the sake of pvp,  why continue that tradition?

 

I liked the teleport macro like it was.   I don't like having to go to specific points on the map to use it.    

 

Nor do I care for a watered down version that I have to get a friggin accolade on ALL of my characters just to unlock,  then hunt for a exploration badge in every zone,  only to find out it is on a long timer.  I want to just play the game - grinding out exploration badges on umpteen characters does not fall in the category of fun, or play.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I don't care for you making drastic changes to zone travel just to fix a supposed pvp exploit.     What percentage of players actually pvp,  maybe 5% at most?   

The old devs kept breaking pve for the sake of pvp,  why continue that tradition?

This is change is not related to PvP in any way, shape, or form.

 

I'll point you back to Jimmy's first post in this thread:

Quote

 

As for why it’s being changed, well that’s simple: You should not be able to teleport to any base, instantly, with no cost, regardless of your character’s level or progress, by using a simple slash command.

 

Additionally, this command and other related commands had numerous other lesser-known exploitable issues.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Glacier Peak
added quote

[Jacke]

7 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I don't care for you making drastic changes to zone travel just to fix a supposed pvp exploit.

It wasn't a PvP exploit.  It wasn't even initially the bug, because that was only found when the changes were being implemented.

 

It was glibly giving a GM command to all players all the time.  I used /enterbasefrompasscode.  But I felt it was not quite right.  It trivialized too many things.

 

Restricting /enterbasefrompasscode was going to happen.  Just as a massively overperforming set like Titan Weapons was going to be considered and changed and those changes would reduce its peak DPS.

 

I think the solutions to aid travel while restricting /enterbasefrompasscode are a very good set of changes to City of Heroes.  And I've played this game since 2005, through many a nerf and buff and other sundre evolutions.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke