rant Why Do We Need Quantums?

[Bugsydor]

Today, I am going to complain about a feature that has been in the game for a very long time.

 

There are exactly two archetypes in the game that have enemies that exist purely to give them a bad time: Peacebringers and Warshades. Sure, invuln tankers have to deal with a psi hole, but they don't have to deal with heavy, them-specific stuns. (And kheldians have that same psi-hole, too, minus a WS's eclipse).

 

Maybe it was necessary for balance purposes at some point in the nebulous past, but that point is clearly past. Can't we just have them removed from the game? Or maybe just restricted to the kheldian story arc missions? Heck, keep them in but change the guns to not stun and to do psi damage so they still target a weak point. They make leveling a kheld a huge pain, as things currently stand.

[Greycat]

NO REMOVING THE QUANTUMS.

 

Bad enough everything else has gotten nerfed or removed that used to challenge Kheldians. The Quantums are about the only thing left that actually makes it feel like the world is responding to *you* being there. Khelds are a story-driven AT (the "epic" in Epic AT.) You only see Void Hunters rarely now (I used to keep nice kill counts on my Khelds for them) and Cysts are pretty much nothing but shiny rocks now, the few times you see them.

 

Hell, they used to do unresistable Nictus damage, even that got removed, and frankly their threat level has gone from "really need to watch out for them" to "ooh, that might have left a little burn, anyone have ointment?"

 

It's one of the reasons (on top of a forced respec at 24 and a few other things) I don't find VEATs interesting. Other than a fairly lame storyline which is generic to all of them, there's absolutely nothing that feels like the world cares you exist. That same "epic" (again, story driven) feel isn't there. You might as well be another brute, stalker or dom. Kheldians? Yes, *you* are deemed a threat personally and *you* are the target of attempts to kill you that could come from anywhere.

 

Remove or nerf them further and you might as well just roll an energy/energy blaster and occasionally play random AE missions.

[Jawbreaker]

46 minutes ago, Greycat said:

NO REMOVING THE QUANTUMS.

 

Bad enough everything else has gotten nerfed or removed that used to challenge Kheldians. The Quantums are about the only thing left that actually makes it feel like the world is responding to *you* being there. Khelds are a story-driven AT (the "epic" in Epic AT.) You only see Void Hunters rarely now (I used to keep nice kill counts on my Khelds for them) and Cysts are pretty much nothing but shiny rocks now, the few times you see them.

 

Hell, they used to do unresistable Nictus damage, even that got removed, and frankly their threat level has gone from "really need to watch out for them" to "ooh, that might have left a little burn, anyone have ointment?"

 

It's one of the reasons (on top of a forced respec at 24 and a few other things) I don't find VEATs interesting. Other than a fairly lame storyline which is generic to all of them, there's absolutely nothing that feels like the world cares you exist. That same "epic" (again, story driven) feel isn't there. You might as well be another brute, stalker or dom. Kheldians? Yes, *you* are deemed a threat personally and *you* are the target of attempts to kill you that could come from anywhere.

 

Remove or nerf them further and you might as well just roll an energy/energy blaster and occasionally play random AE missions.

All the this. I for one would like more challenging enemy groups added, the kind that make you stop and think before going all Leroy J

[Doomrider]

No. Sorry but quantums are a shell of their former selves and their current strength is but a sliver of the power they once had. They are not a threat, even when leveling. I reject the idea that they need to be removed because you personally struggle to defeat them while leveling. 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Doomrider

[Gulbasaur]

On 11/25/2020 at 12:18 AM, Bugsydor said:

Today, I am going to complain about a feature that has been in the game for a very long time.

 

There are exactly two archetypes in the game that have enemies that exist purely to give them a bad time: Peacebringers and Warshades. Sure, invuln tankers have to deal with a psi hole, but they don't have to deal with heavy, them-specific stuns. (And kheldians have that same psi-hole, too, minus a WS's eclipse).

 

Maybe it was necessary for balance purposes at some point in the nebulous past, but that point is clearly past. Can't we just have them removed from the game? Or maybe just restricted to the kheldian story arc missions? Heck, keep them in but change the guns to not stun and to do psi damage so they still target a weak point. They make leveling a kheld a huge pain, as things currently stand.

Back in the day, you had to hit 50 to unlock the Kheldians, and hitting 50 was hard. You had to earn it. Consequently, the Kheldian archetypes are a sort of "New Game Plus" with harder mechanics to deal with, many of which have been removed. The quantums are about the only ones that are still in the game and they're weaker now than they used to be. 

 

Now, Kheldians aren't the strongest and never were, and I'd argue that they haven't fared well since the introduction of IOs pushed almost every other ranged archetype into the niche that they filled, but they are unique and had unique challenges. 

 

A lot of the game's original difficulty is, well, just not there any more. Stripping it away further would be a real shame. 

[chi1701]

2 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Back in the day, you had to hit 50 to unlock the Kheldians, and hitting 50 was hard. You had to earn it. Consequently, the Kheldian archetypes are a sort of "New Game Plus" with harder mechanics to deal with, many of which have been removed. The quantums are about the only ones that are still in the game and they're weaker now than they used to be. 

 

Now, Kheldians aren't the strongest and never were, and I'd argue that they haven't fared well since the introduction of IOs pushed almost every other ranged archetype into the niche that they filled, but they are unique and had unique challenges. 

 

A lot of the game's original difficulty is, well, just not there any more. Stripping it away further would be a real shame. 

tbh, a good team would recognise a keldian in group, and when I am not playing my WS, its nice feature to look out for them if there is a keldian in group.

[generilisk]

Okay, a few things to unpack here.

What Quantums were at their release doesn't matter to what they are now. Just because you had to suffer then, doesn't mean others should now. I'm reminded of a quote I read, though I can't recall the source:

Quote

If you suffered in life and want other people to suffer as you did because "you turned out fine," you did not in fact turn out fine.

From a mechanical standpoint, the Quantums are outdated and unnecessarily punishing. Khelds are no longer a 'hero class'. They're available just the same as others. There's no anti-blaster mobs, or even anti-VEAT mobs. There's no mechanical reason anymore for them.

 

From a *lore* standpoint, they're interesting. I'd be in favor of a rework. If these weapons are all over the place, it's awfully convenient that they ONLY show up when Khelds are around. They're psychic and know exactly which places to send the guns, to everything the Khelds are involved in?

 

No...as is, they are just a screw to Kheld players. They need an overhaul.

[Gulbasaur]

I totally get what you're saying and I do think the epic archetypes all need a look at by the devs, however I still regard them as New Game Plus archetypes so adding in extra mechanics is a good thing. I think they add to the flavour of the archetype - something that, say, the VEATs lack (and I say that as a VEAT main).

 

I don't want people to suffer, but I do appreciate extra challenge in a game that's not that challenging. A toggle or a Null the Gull option would be good though.

[Haijinx]

If you do any reading of Dr. Lawrence Krauss without quantum events the Unervise never would have started.

 

So they are needed.

[Greycat]

13 hours ago, generilisk said:

From a mechanical standpoint, the Quantums are outdated and unnecessarily punishing. Khelds are no longer a 'hero class'. They're available just the same as others. There's no anti-blaster mobs, or even anti-VEAT mobs. There's no mechanical reason anymore for them.

 

From a *lore* standpoint, they're interesting. I'd be in favor of a rework. If these weapons are all over the place, it's awfully convenient that they ONLY show up when Khelds are around. They're psychic and know exactly which places to send the guns, to everything the Khelds are involved in?

No, there are no "anti-blaster" mobs. Blasters are not tied to a storyline - they are not an epic class (see prior definition.) Blasters and the other "classic" ATs are blank palettes for the player to do what they want on. It's part of why some people complain that X mission (especially morality missions) "railroad" their characters and make assumptions about them. The game world doesn't particularly care they exist.

 

And no, there are no anti-VEAT mobs, which is part of why I dislike them. There is absolutely nothing in the world that pays attention to them existing any more or less or for any reason other than "you entered my aggro radius." The storyline missions are bland and almost insulting. If anything, the VEATs are the one that need an overhaul in that respect. Even if it's just some custom *reactions* from Arachnos mobs - "Look, it's the traitor!" or something. Anything to feel like you have an *effect* on the world.

 

As far as the guns showing up? There's no reason to take out an anti-tank weapon if there's no tank. Lore wise, the Quantum weapons are distributed to multiple groups (not all) as part of an overall attempt to cut them down. They *used* to have Void Mercenaries show up, as well. So, yes, they are actually fairly widely distributed - though the ones not given to the Void hunters aren't as high quality. This is explained fairly plainly in the Kheldian storylines.

 

Last, saying they're there as a "screw" to Kheldian players? All that you need to do to counter them is *pay attention.* Yes, it means not rushing in and facerolling powers. As mentioned previously, they've already been watered down to be a shadow of their former selves. The only way to water them down further would be to give them nothing but brawl. Kheldians already have tools to deal with them, from Dwarf form to built in energy/negative energy resists, the ability as a Warshade to teleport them directly to you, stealths and intangibilities to shrug off an alpha, a PBAOE stun field, pets that attack (from range or just exploding,) holds and high damage attacks that also apply a hold - oh, yes, and knockback. They can't do a thing while they're flying away from you and having to get back up - while you can still attack. Yes, if you don't pay attention and get hit by multiples because you didn't check a side corridor or watch for an ambush, they can hurt. A minor challenge isn't a bad thing. Frankly, the game needs more challenges, not less.

 

Ways to deal with Quantums:

 

1. Dwarf form. Whether you TP in or just charge in. Higher resists, mez protection.

2. (Warshade) Target Quantum. Have Inky Aspect, and/or Shadow Cloak running - the cloak for a bit of defense. TP foe, immediately hit Gravity Well. Result: Quantum in a stun field, hit with your hold which is also your largest Melee attack. Garnish, serve with a purple wine and olives. Even better with extracted essences ready.

3. (Warshade/PB) Charge into group. Eat alpha while in Nebulous Form (Warshade) or Quantum Flight (PB) - which put you intangible. Mire/Eclipse (warshade) and go to town.

4. (Peacebringers) Light form. Attack as desired.

5. (Peacebringers) I like to take stealth - either as a power pick, temp power (do patrols in the PVP zones, get them free) or IO - on my PBs. Target Q, build up, fly, hit F to follow, queue up Incandescent (or radial, early on) strike. You'll build up speed, fly past, hit the Q which should eithe rknock them back or put them in a hold, usually before they have a chance to fire. Even if they do stun you somehow, you'll float past, turn around and be ready to attack again. Finish off as desired.

 

Just as a few examples. That's not even touching on what people do with IOs.

 

No, Quantums do not need to be nerfed, reworked or removed.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:50 PM, Greycat said:

NO REMOVING THE QUANTUMS.

 

Bad enough everything else has gotten nerfed or removed that used to challenge Kheldians. The Quantums are about the only thing left that actually makes it feel like the world is responding to *you* being there. Khelds are a story-driven AT (the "epic" in Epic AT.) You only see Void Hunters rarely now (I used to keep nice kill counts on my Khelds for them) and Cysts are pretty much nothing but shiny rocks now, the few times you see them.

 

Hell, they used to do unresistable Nictus damage, even that got removed, and frankly their threat level has gone from "really need to watch out for them" to "ooh, that might have left a little burn, anyone have ointment?"

 

It's one of the reasons (on top of a forced respec at 24 and a few other things) I don't find VEATs interesting. Other than a fairly lame storyline which is generic to all of them, there's absolutely nothing that feels like the world cares you exist. That same "epic" (again, story driven) feel isn't there. You might as well be another brute, stalker or dom. Kheldians? Yes, *you* are deemed a threat personally and *you* are the target of attempts to kill you that could come from anywhere.

 

Remove or nerf them further and you might as well just roll an energy/energy blaster and occasionally play random AE missions.

All of this AND let's not forget that they are EXTRA spawns. More to Kill. More XP. MORE BODIES HITTIN THE FLOOR!!!

 

So, yea, I'm in the no thanks to their removal please group.

[Gulbasaur]

34 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And no, there are no anti-VEAT mobs, which is part of why I dislike them.

VEATs do really feel like they're made of spare parts (not that they're bad - they're not- but they do feel cobbled together. Arachnos mercenaries or something would be excellent as a parallel to Void Hunters and Quantums... all Arachnos archetypes are psychics per the lore (I think - soldiers are technically mind controlling themselves) so an anti-psychic squad would work well thematically.

[Ohsirus]

Anyone else remember the "No Khelds Allowed" while teaming? The pleading of "Please kill the Voids first". I really need to resurrect my WS/PB alts, just to see how they function in a i27/Incarante world now.

[Direct Crit]

4 hours ago, Ohsirus said:

Anyone else remember the "No Khelds Allowed" while teaming? The pleading of "Please kill the Voids first". I really need to resurrect my WS/PB alts, just to see how they function in a i27/Incarante world now.

With a proper IO build and Incarnates Kheldians (at least all human builds) are some of the most versatile and powerful ATs in the game. Peacebringers especially with their ability to have perma Unstoppable and perma Build-Up while having access to a nuke and spammable soft CC are some of the more undervalued generalists in the game

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Ohsirus said:

Anyone else remember the "No Khelds Allowed" while teaming? The pleading of "Please kill the Voids first". I really need to resurrect my WS/PB alts, just to see how they function in a i27/Incarante world now.

They are VERY different. However, excepting how cool they can be to watch, you're better off just rolling a Sentinel and you'll be doing practically the same job in a mission and be safer and more effective while you do it.

 

Edit: I'm not fond of the fact that I just stated that. I miss my human only chaos mage warshade. Sad fact is, my chaos mage fire/bio sent is far more effective and has built in mez protection.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[The_Warpact]

We had a PB on a recent run of the Lady Grey TF,  let me tell you what an absolute pleasure it was to have lv 54 Quantum Chief Soldiers running around.

It was a welcome change of pace, a powerful enemy for all, and frankly like others I miss the days of PB/WS crapping their pants running into a Void.

The HC team should roll back the clock on them and bring back those big bads.

[Ohsirus]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:04 PM, Tactical said:

With a proper IO build and Incarnates Kheldians (at least all human builds) are some of the most versatile and powerful ATs in the game. Peacebringers especially with their ability to have perma Unstoppable and perma Build-Up while having access to a nuke and spammable soft CC are some of the more undervalued generalists in the game

Never Understood why people would choose all-human for a AT based around the forms. JMHO.

[archgemini24]

1 hour ago, Ohsirus said:

Never Understood why people would choose all-human for a AT based around the forms. JMHO.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I like the toggles you can only access in base-form (pool powers or in-set) to get Defense and other in-set mitigation tools (Inky Aspect) to avoid mezzers. Even that protection feels incomplete, at times, as I still have zero problem putting down 2.5million inf/hr for the Defense Amplifier for my Warshade.

 

Base-form-only Kheldians were like proto-Sentinels (where they traded Mez Protection for Melee and PBAoE abilities).

[Haijinx]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:09 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

They are VERY different. However, excepting how cool they can be to watch, you're better off just rolling a Sentinel and you'll be doing practically the same job in a mission and be safer and more effective while you do it.

 

Edit: I'm not fond of the fact that I just stated that. I miss my human only chaos mage warshade. Sad fact is, my chaos mage fire/bio sent is far more effective and has built in mez protection.

TBH Khelds could use some minor built in status protection like Veats get

 

They have way too many toggles not to have such.  

 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Ohsirus said:

Never Understood why people would choose all-human for a AT based around the forms. JMHO.

Have to admit the built in effects for Khelds in human form are pretty visually impressive though. 

 

And the sounds aren't bad either. 

[Hyperstrike]

Remove Quantums:

OVER MY SMOKING, CHARRED ASH PILE!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Greycat]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:12 AM, Ohsirus said:

Never Understood why people would choose all-human for a AT based around the forms. JMHO.

Because they want the play style. *shrug* Or they want to avoid the slot crunce.

Personally, I'd say it's more "viable" on a PB than on a WS - that second mire is just too nice to pass up.

 

On 12/4/2020 at 10:04 AM, Ohsirus said:

Anyone else remember the "No Khelds Allowed" while teaming? The pleading of "Please kill the Voids first". I really need to resurrect my WS/PB alts, just to see how they function in a i27/Incarante world now.

Honestly? No. And I've been playing since i3. I never asked anyone else to kill the Quantums or Voids - those were *my* meat. I used to keep kill counts on them for some characters. Even the Cysts were able to be handled if the team would actually listen and not just rush in.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:18 PM, Bugsydor said:

Today, I am going to complain about a feature that has been in the game for a very long time.

 

There are exactly two archetypes in the game that have enemies that exist purely to give them a bad time: Peacebringers and Warshades. Sure, invuln tankers have to deal with a psi hole, but they don't have to deal with heavy, them-specific stuns. (And kheldians have that same psi-hole, too, minus a WS's eclipse).

 

Maybe it was necessary for balance purposes at some point in the nebulous past, but that point is clearly past. Can't we just have them removed from the game? Or maybe just restricted to the kheldian story arc missions? Heck, keep them in but change the guns to not stun and to do psi damage so they still target a weak point. They make leveling a kheld a huge pain, as things currently stand.

Quants are great. Cysts are grey. Voids are great.

 

Do not remove. They offer variety and flavor. They should be modernized and made more dynamic.

 

They're too easy to deal with now. Also, remember that kheldian lore is a huge part of the game. Just visit ouro and read about the far future...

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Because they want the play style. *shrug* Or they want to avoid the slot crunce.

Personally, I'd say it's more "viable" on a PB than on a WS - that second mire is just too nice to pass up.

 

Honestly? No. And I've been playing since i3. I never asked anyone else to kill the Quantums or Voids - those were *my* meat. I used to keep kill counts on them for some characters. Even the Cysts were able to be handled if the team would actually listen and not just rush in.

I miss the "pucker factor" of Voids/Quants/Cysts.

"Oh crap!  Serious opposition!"

[Gulbasaur]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:40 PM, Haijinx said:

TBH Khelds could use some minor built in status protection like Veats get

 

My thought was always that they have Mez protection and it's called Dwarf Form. I get that's not what everyone wants, though and I'd love it if toggles got suppressed in different forms, rather than detoggled.

 

Part of me says they already have Mez protection, it just comes at a price.

 

I do think VEATs have a stronger base toolkit, though. They're better generalists than Kheldians, which are designed around form-shifting. Warshades certainly work best when you're swapping forms a lot and but peacebringers get light form which basically reduces Dwarf to an aggro-generator.