Weekly Discussion 80: More Hard Mode or New Zones & Missions?

[Doc_Scorpion]

45 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Back in the days of Ultima Online's heyday. They had a server, I forget the name, for hardcore players.

Siege Perilous.  And it was a right mess because it required custom code (it was all but a completely different game), and often didn't get the updates until much later than the "regular rules" shards.  It was frequently buggy and those bugs would persist much longer than they did on the "regular rules" shards.  A full production team was required to support the main game, and Siege got the scraps.

It's that "all but a completely different game" you have to keep an eye on when looking towards it as an example for Homecoming.  It wasn't just harder, it was also different.  Different combat rules, different resource gathering rules, different vendor rules...  There was very little that wasn't different to some degree.  A large part of that was due to the fact that Siege Perilous wasn't actually the "hardcore mode" as you're envisioning.  It was a PvP shard based around "capture the flag" style mechanics and inter-faction/raid style warfare that was completely absent on the main servers.  Most UO players treated it as if were a (pre-Trammel) "hardcore mode", but it really wasn't.

Either way it was notably a ghost town at the time the main game was still adding servers to handle the load.  Why was it a ghost town?  Hard to say.  Maybe it was a self fulfilling prophecy, nobody is going to go where nobody is after all.  (MMO's are inherently social!)  Maybe it was the persistent bugs and endemic server instability.  Maybe it was the radically different ruleset.  Maybe there aren't really that many hardest-of-the-hardest-core players...  Who knows?

(And could someone explain what "801" means?)

[El D]

New Zones/Missions would have broader appeal than a hardcore mode, imo. I'll echo the sentiment of some earlier players here in suggesting that the Hazard Zones/Kallisti Wharf be added to. Given that those zones already exist, it seems like it'd be easier to make content rather than starting from scratch (even if I am very interested in seeing what Zone ideas the HC Devs could pull off). I don't think the initial content would need to be extravagant or bring about sweeping changes either - for the Hazard Zones, just adding a short Trial akin to the Market Crash could be a solid start. Could even link them all together in a chain progression, as a series of Longbow or FBSA operations. A quick in for Kallisti could be a repeatable mission contact that uses the new office maps (perhaps with a handful of badges attached for incentive) a la the mission contacts in the PVP zones. Could even have one regular repeatable and one Incarnate-ified version for folks who want the extra challenge.

 

As for actually doing a More Hard Mode - would it be possible to allow folks to use the Flashback settings independent of Ouroboros? Like, expanding them into the Notoriety options or Null the Gull? Combining those with personal choices while playing seems like it'd go a long way to giving some folks the extra challenge they're looking for.

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

 

Maybe it would be easier for HC to simply make a new hardcore shard.

Then the hardcore can go there and enjoy the challenge.

 

 

And stop trying to force the rest of us to play the bad Dark Souls knockoff they seem to want this game to be.

[cranebump]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

With Ouroboros... lets actually be "Menders"! :

Something many games have now is sort of a "Random Challenge of the day" type of mission mode where you are sent to complete a task with various conditions, such as the ones highlighted above. The in-game version for Homecoming could be "Mender Tasks". 

 

The timeline has been corrupted by an unknown force that drastically changed the events of the past! Heroes and Villains acting in strange ways with different powers, new items out of time, and more are threating the very timeline! It's up to you as a Mender to tackle these challenges and mend the timeline before it's too late!

 

No problem. My AE arcs already have an explanation  for all of that (the Mobius Strip), and an organization that deals with its issues (Wards Prime). MEND AWAY!

 

You're welcome for that shameless plug.🙂

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Siege Perilous.  And it was a right mess because it required custom code (it was all but a completely different game), and often didn't get the updates until much later than the "regular rules" shards.  It was frequently buggy and those bugs would persist much longer than they did on the "regular rules" shards.  A full production team was required to support the main game, and Siege got the scraps.

It's that "all but a completely different game" you have to keep an eye on when looking towards it as an example for Homecoming.  It wasn't just harder, it was also different.  Different combat rules, different resource gathering rules, different vendor rules...  There was very little that wasn't different to some degree.  A large part of that was due to the fact that Siege Perilous wasn't actually the "hardcore mode" as you're envisioning.  It was a PvP shard based around "capture the flag" style mechanics and inter-faction/raid style warfare that was completely absent on the main servers.  Most UO players treated it as if were a (pre-Trammel) "hardcore mode", but it really wasn't.

Either way it was notably a ghost town at the time the main game was still adding servers to handle the load.  Why was it a ghost town?  Hard to say.  Maybe it was a self fulfilling prophecy, nobody is going to go where nobody is after all.  (MMO's are inherently social!)  Maybe it was the persistent bugs and endemic server instability.  Maybe it was the radically different ruleset.  Maybe there aren't really that many hardest-of-the-hardest-core players...  Who knows?

(And could someone explain what "801" means?)

801 is the name of a set of AE mission that are very difficult.

 

The Siege Perilous you describe is way more different that what I was thinking.

 

Same rules, less freebies, more difficultly.

[BurtHutt]

I've posted it before so I won't re-write the entire idea here. With limited resources and small Dev team, use the AE. No, not just finding Dev choices and do those. I think most will agree the AE has a bit of a stigma attached to it. My idea is to have separate contacts in various zones that are just hidden extensions of the AE. These contacts will have player created missions added to them and will appear and look like radio, paper etc missions. No AE number or ID. Just a regular looking mission.

 

These new missions will be created by players and they will need to adhere to strict guidelines. Then they can submit the mission for consideration. If the mission is accepted it is then added to that contact. The player will also need to have a full write up for adding it to the wiki etc - yes, it becomes canon. This will definitely motivate players to create material.

 

Community reps from the HC team can determine winners etc. This system should be little work for the HC Dev team and add a lot of things to do that are unique and different. It might be as simple as a drag and drop?  I don't see how the Devs will be able to add content like this or anything close on a regular basis.

 

I do love this game. However, my playtime is lessening as it is becoming the same old. This might be one way to help alleviate that issue. Devs can continue to work on trials etc and give players more to do. Adding powers, re-balancing things and QoL adds will not sustain the game.

 

I have submitted a number of ideas but I feel this one might be the most important and the one I'd like to see added ASAP.

 

Also, you can make some harder missions etc to challenge players and so on. I don't think there is ANY need to make any new zones. I would be up for new maps and mission maps etc. That is always welcome. We already have a ton of zones. I'd also be up for new event zones (like the current winter forest which is, I assume, only around for Xmas season? It may've been better if it had a badge and maybe a day job - it'd be cool if you could only access that for the 1 month a year and obtain it that way).

Edited December 8, 2020 by BurtHutt

[Mezmera]

I think we have a plethora of underutilized zones as it is so I don't think making any more new zones is necessary.  But what I would like to see is harder new content developed with neat new features introduced such as when you have to fight your clone in the villain tip missions along with new mechanics like the blue circles of death when you fight Battle Maiden in the Apex task force.  

 

We have a few zones pretty much wholly unused at the moment like Khalisti.  I'd like to see the next chain of fights building on the incarnate contacts after Dark Astoria with harder fresh content.  If "develop new zones" was dropped from this topic I wouldn't see why the rest of the topic wouldn't just fall in line with itself. 

 

More hard fresh new missions utilizing places like Khalisti Wharf would be my vote for high priority among any future features being discussed.   

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mezmera

[GM ColdSpark]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Tbf, those folks are the type to care and engage in such a survey as they are more engaged with the game by going into the communities.

 

@GM ColdSpark, is there any way to get a bigger poll out there out of curiosity? 

I'll ask the question to the rest of the GMs - no promises of course!

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, BurtHutt said:

I've posted it before so I won't re-write the entire idea here. With limited resources and small Dev team, use the AE. No, not just finding Dev choices and do those. I think most will agree the AE has a bit of a stigma attached to it. My idea is to have separate contacts in various zones that are just hidden extensions of the AE. These contacts will have player created missions added to them and will appear and look like radio, paper etc missions. No AE number or ID. Just a regular looking mission.

 

These new missions will be created by players and they will need to adhere to strict guidelines. Then they can submit the mission for consideration. If the mission is accepted it is then added to that contact. The player will also need to have a full write up for adding it to the wiki etc - yes, it becomes canon. This will definitely motivate players to create material.

 

Community reps from the HC team can determine winners etc. This system should be little work for the HC Dev team and add a lot of things to do that are unique and different. It might be as simple as a drag and drop?  I don't see how the Devs will be able to add content like this or anything close on a regular basis.

 

I do love this game. However, my playtime is lessening as it is becoming the same old. This might be one way to help alleviate that issue. Devs can continue to work on trials etc and give players more to do. Adding powers, re-balancing things and QoL adds will not sustain the game.

 

I have submitted a number of ideas but I feel this one might be the most important and the one I'd like to see added ASAP.

 

Also, you can make some harder missions etc to challenge players and so on.

Yeah, well, I have a set of 45 missions in AE that I'll happily donate to get reviewed and  added and can add write ups if need be.  

[BurtHutt]

15 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Yeah, well, I have a set of 45 missions in AE that I'll happily donate to get reviewed and  added and can add write ups if need be.  

Welp, this is what I mean. We have so many players that are pretty bright and capable of creating some unique stuff. @Darmian , do you also feel players are reluctant to sift through the piles of AE missions to try and find the good stuff? Do you also feel there is a stigma attached to AE and using it to access non-farm missions?

 

I don't know the system or how logical my idea is but is SEEMS very easy to implement. I would absolutely love to become a part of this team if need be.

[SeraphimKensai]

My biggest caveat with difficulty levels, is that I feel if there's more risk there should be more reward. Give us an actual incentive to play +4.

 

That said need more story development regarding Kheldians, Battalion, the Shadow Shard, etc.

[Darmian]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:01 PM, BurtHutt said:

Welp, this is what I mean. We have so many players that are pretty bright and capable of creating some unique stuff. @Darmian , do you also feel players are reluctant to sift through the piles of AE missions to try and find the good stuff? Do you also feel there is a stigma attached to AE and using it to access non-farm missions?

 

I don't know the system or how logical my idea is but is SEEMS very easy to implement. I would absolutely love to become a part of this team if need be.

Well, there IS a stigma of some kind I think. And it boils down to Farms vs Story.  And Farms can be great (I hear!).  No, truthfully they don't do it for me but I've tried a few and I admire the good ones for their mechanics and design, I just happen to be a content lover and they usually have none.  It's hard enough to get anyone who isn't a known SG/team mate to come with you on a story arc actually.  Even harder to describe in the LFG as opposed to "AE Farm starting in Atlas LFM 2/8". And there are plenty of people who love content but don't do AE because "it's not real".

 

I am lucky enough to have a tiny gang of team mates that regularly go through AE stories with me, and we ooh and aah, and wonder how things were done and then try to figure it out...or we go "ugh, ok, let's see what else this person did...no, still crap, no more of theirs!", but we play them.

 

You can find stuff!  Obviously the Dev Choices each month are to be looked at, then using the Search fucntion on "Hall of Fame + SFMA" and on "SFMA" alone.  After that you're just scrolling.  And @cranebump is doing an "Under the Radar" set of reviews for games that haven't got that many plays and posting them here too.

 

But yeah, back to the topic(!). Sourcing tip mission content from the AE and then whooshing it a bit (since the AE lacks a LOT of stuff) could really add content that could be fun but doesn't actually need to contribute heavily to ongoing Lore, just stay within the lines so to speak.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Darmian

[ForeverLaxx]

What would you even do for a "hard mode" that the CoH system would be able handle? That's my initial problem with the idea of just "adding" additional difficulty to the end of our existing +4/x8 system. Many mobs were never designed or intended to scale beyond a certain point, so it can't be a simple matter of making them scale even further into the Purple Patch. All that does is shift build dynamics and we're back at square one all over again. We already have a way to scale a solo player up to the challenge level of a x8 team with +4 level mobs, on top of disallowing temporary powers while suffering debuffs in addition to buffing the mobs even further... where do you even go from there? Stuff a mission full of AVs and GMs for "added challenge"?

 

I just don't see how the CoH game system can handle a retroactive "make my base game harder" option further than what it already does. To get harder content, you'll have to create harder content, and I'm not really interested in content that can only be tackled by the community-approved "best builds". One of the joys of this game is that I can play anything I want and still find success. When I want a meta to dictate how I build and play a character, I'll go back to PvPing for that.

[cranebump]

26 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Welp, this is what I mean. We have so many players that are pretty bright and capable of creating some unique stuff. @Darmian , do you also feel players are reluctant to sift through the piles of AE missions to try and find the good stuff? Do you also feel there is a stigma attached to AE and using it to access non-farm missions?

 

I don't know the system or how logical my idea is but is SEEMS very easy to implement. I would absolutely love to become a part of this team if need be.

Chiming in here.

 

Not sure the word "stigma" applies so much as "skewed expectations." AE is just LOADED with farms, to the point where the story arcs can be drowned out. However, it's just a simple matter of typing "SFMA" to locate a treasure trove of work. From my rather small sampling of the mass of what's out there, I've found most efforts to be competently executed (and by that I mean, they can stand in for the average older missions right now). There are also plenty that are a cut above. Anklysaur's work is consistently strong. Darmian's Dark Deeds arc is as good as any extended story in the game right now. Peacock's The Reports of My Death Are Entirely Accurate is one of the most creative stories I've ever played, AE or otherwise. The 3 Arcs I've reviewed for Under the Radar Reviews are all good enough to function as in game missions (with Miss Jersey's being particularly fun, IMHO). 

 

So, yeah--there are some amazing storytellers out there. You find a way to make use of their talents -- for free, I might add -- that's just a grand bargain.

 

[Kazuuk]

I would like to see Kallisti Wharf fleshed out.  I really don't see a need for further modes, although you guys would have the metrics on them, I don't see challenge settings used currently nearly as much as normal run.  KW is a beautiful zone.  I would love to have a reason other than MC to go there.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Kazuuk

[BurtHutt]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

Chiming in here.

 

Not sure the word "stigma" applies so much as "skewed expectations." AE is just LOADED with farms, to the point where the story arcs can be drowned out. However, it's just a simple matter of typing "SFMA" to locate a treasure trove of work. From my rather small sampling of the mass of what's out there, I've found most efforts to be competently executed (and by that I mean, they can stand in for the average older missions right now). There are also plenty that are a cut above. Anklysaur's work is consistently strong. Darmian's Dark Deeds arc is as good as any extended story in the game right now. Peacock's The Reports of My Death Are Entirely Accurate is one of the most creative stories I've ever played, AE or otherwise. The 3 Arcs I've reviewed for Under the Radar Reviews are all good enough to function as in game missions (with Miss Jersey's being particularly fun, IMHO). 

 

So, yeah--there are some amazing storytellers out there. You find a way to make use of their talents -- for free, I might add -- that's just a grand bargain.

 

I think I would go stigma. I PUG a lot and its always the same old radio missions that we've played a million times and look the same. They even overlap by having the same missions in different zones/levels. Then I say: Hey, why don't we try some AE - I'm usually met with an overwhelming no. I'm also in several SGs and it isn't much different.

 

I also agree when you say there are some amazing missions and they're all sitting right there. For free. Ready right now. I would also suggest they not be connected to current lore/canon so there is no confusion or assuming material direction. Create your own, unique mission, write it up, do a Wiki write up for the mish and submit it in accordance to guidelines. You can add like 10 missions a month if not more depending on resources and time the HC team has. Let's do it!

 

As an afterthought, if there are some brilliant multi mission arcs then maybe those can have their own contact placement.

Edited December 8, 2020 by BurtHutt

[Galaxy Brain]

52 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

What would you even do for a "hard mode" that the CoH system would be able handle? That's my initial problem with the idea of just "adding" additional difficulty to the end of our existing +4/x8 system. Many mobs were never designed or intended to scale beyond a certain point, so it can't be a simple matter of making them scale even further into the Purple Patch. All that does is shift build dynamics and we're back at square one all over again. We already have a way to scale a solo player up to the challenge level of a x8 team with +4 level mobs, on top of disallowing temporary powers while suffering debuffs in addition to buffing the mobs even further... where do you even go from there? Stuff a mission full of AVs and GMs for "added challenge"?

 

I just don't see how the CoH game system can handle a retroactive "make my base game harder" option further than what it already does. To get harder content, you'll have to create harder content, and I'm not really interested in content that can only be tackled by the community-approved "best builds". One of the joys of this game is that I can play anything I want and still find success. When I want a meta to dictate how I build and play a character, I'll go back to PvPing for that.

Also @Black Zot, but in my post on the last page I address this directly. Its not a matter of throwing "moar numbers" at players, but changing behaviors that would be more difficult.

 

In my examples, I offered up a time-attack setting for Oro missions where, like Mayhem Missions, you are on a strict clock and you can add time back to it via objectives. That would inherently be more difficult than a normal mission we see now. Or adding in unique side effects to Players and Enemies directly sort of like you can add on in Rogue-Likes. No need to get all Dark Souls-y.

 

Another example would be offering up more unique enemy types that cannot be traditionally "brute forced". I went into more details, but say there is an enemy that is really resilient unless you CC them. That would immediately put more thought into the game where CC powers would have an actual offensive utility as certain enemies go down way faster if you lock them down instead of just attacking. 

 

Stuff like that could be implemented.

[Darmian]

8 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

I think I would go stigma. I PUG a lot and its always the same old radio missions that we've played a million times and look the same. They even overlap by having the same missions in different zones/levels. Then I say: Hey, why don't we try some AE - I'm usually met with an overwhelming no. I'm also in several SGs and it isn't much different.

 

I also agree when you say there are some amazing missions and they're all sitting right there. For free. Ready right now. I would also suggest they not be connected to current lore/canon so there is no confusion or assuming material direction. Create your own, unique mission, write it up, do a Wiki write up for the mish and submit it in accordance to guidelines. You can add like 10 missions a month if not more depending on resources and time the HC team has. Let's do it!

I'd still advocate sort of coloring inside the lines re Lore though.  Even as an advocate of AE I want the missions to at least feel like the fit in the world. 

[CrudeVileTerror]

@GM ColdSpark, @Galaxy Brain; a potential answer to your question:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/9265-new-feature-in-game-polling-system/

[BurtHutt]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

I'd still advocate sort of coloring inside the lines re Lore though.  Even as an advocate of AE I want the missions to at least feel like the fit in the world. 

I'd prefer unique so you don't interfere or convolute lore. Also, I am very tired of seeing the same stuff over and over and would love seeing something different (factions, bosses etc). Bring on the new and original!!!!

[Verix]

What if you incorporated modifiers in the existing systmem for :

 

1. Always include an AV in the mission (might only apply to radio/paper missions)

2. Allow AV/Hero to be in random enemy groups  (and of course the option to have them in every enemy group)

3. Half team size for missions/SF (but increase quality/quantity of infamy/recipe rewards)

 

[Darmian]

26 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

I'd prefer unique so you don't interfere or convolute lore. Also, I am very tired of seeing the same stuff over and over and would love seeing something different (factions, bosses etc). Bring on the new and original!!!!

Oh, "coloring between the lines" has a LOT of latitude!  And I also do include new new new!  I really mean I don't want to see a bunch of things that couldn't possibly exist in the game world, rather than "thou shalt only use Council!".  So, no thinly disguised Orcs and Elves thanks very much, to throw a generic example in there.

[Darmian]

2 hours ago, cranebump said:

So, yeah--there are some amazing storytellers out there. You find a way to make use of their talents -- for free, I might add -- that's just a grand bargain.

Modestly leaving yourself out of the loop as usual! 

[BurtHutt]

3 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Oh, "coloring between the lines" has a LOT of latitude!  And I also do include new new new!  I really mean I don't want to see a bunch of things that couldn't possibly exist in the game world, rather than "thou shalt only use Council!".  So, no thinly disguised Orcs and Elves thanks very much, to throw a generic example in there.

I prefer more superhero genre. There's already way too much D&D-type influence in this game. However, I am OK with something elf, orc etc. if the creator has made something exceptional.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, BurtHutt said:

I prefer more superhero genre. There's already way too much D&D-type influence in this game. However, I am OK with something elf, orc etc. if the creator has made something exceptional.

In order for any of this to even get a shambling start the options in the AE need to start matching the available options in the game proper. At least then we can see what we can do when not hobbled by some of the tools' currently imposed limitations. Admittedly the current limits push you to think laterally so as to get around them, so in a sense that's good.