Most Unstoppable Tank

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I feel compelled to post just to say @Dark Dove has been 100% right in this thread. If you skip CoD, you're losing out on 8% defense. There is functionally no difference between a Dark Tanker and any other Tanker when it comes to aggro management, except by choice.

 

 

I am the one who originally brought it up, but for a hypothetical Energy Aura Tanker Port.  As a counter point to the idea Infinitium had about just porting Energy Aura at Brute scale to Tankers to keep Def numbers lower to make the Port more palatable to Capt PH.     

 

I thought (and still do) think that porting it at Brute scale is a bad idea.  But at Tanker scale, maybe EA doesn't need that defense from the Stealth Power.   

 

Not taking the Stealth Power on *Dark Armor* seems less than optimum to me,  Since its both an awesome power, a great place to put a LOTG, and it is one of the better looking stealth powers IIRC.   

[Erratic1]

49 minutes ago, Arisara said:

I've responded once to the stealth tanker fella. Anything further is wasting time trying to bring light to someone who can never be wrong. I'll respond once here as well. You're not wrong. Ya just haven't thought as far as who gets the aggro from line of sight before engagement. That cannot be my fire blaster; a glass cannon. .. And I mean "glass". What very little resistance and defense it has is accidental. I set the blaster for damage buff, recharge and recovery. I don't want behind a Tanker that gets stealth suppressed ONCE he engages the enemy; the darn mobs are gonna SEE me first. One round of attacks from a mob will kill this particular cannon. It's a team blaster. Sure the Tank may get aggro after a first volley from a mob not prepared for is launched. The cannon will be just as dead. I need my shield teammate to be seen first. After aggro is assuredly not addressed toward me then I let loose. Less than full volley is gonna burn everything. .. Almost everything. The AV is gonna take 4 shots.  For anyone disappointed with Rain of Fire.. grab the villain patron Electrifying Fences; AOE immobilize. Mobs will take full ticks. It's a fun combo but related to survival I don't use it much for HAVING to destroy all enemies fast.

 

As a suggestion, don't auto follow the Tanker. Then you should not be getting any sort of notice before the Tanker engages (excluding perhaps Nemesis here and there but there will not be enough of them that do notice you). Glass cannon does not mean you shatter in one hit from one mob.

 

The way you describe things every team has to have a Tanker (or more than one) who is gobbling up ever drop of potential aggro. If that has been your experience, I will note that one of the things people repeatedly exclaim about the nature of CoH is the lack of need of any particular role. All <fill in the AT name here> teams have repeatedly been successful including all Blaster teams with not a single Tanker around.

[Haijinx]

I'm probably a crappy Tank.

 

I don't worry about whether the team lives or dies.  I just GO GO GO GO fight fight, smash, kill and so on.

 

They can follow me if they want.  Or not.  Whatevs.  I'll taunt and try and get everything to attack me me me, but that's just cause I'm not worrying about anyone else anyhow.   

 

If the other players die, ah well.  That's why we have so many wakies.  Or Vengeance or Rez powers and stuff. 

 

I mean I'd like to care.  Be all protective and that crap.  But I don't.  That's the deal.  

[Erratic1]

30 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I'm probably a crappy Tank.

 

I don't worry about whether the team lives or dies.  I just GO GO GO GO fight fight, smash, kill and so on.

 

They can follow me if they want.  Or not.  Whatevs.  I'll taunt and try and get everything to attack me me me, but that's just cause I'm not worrying about anyone else anyhow.   

 

If the other players die, ah well.  That's why we have so many wakies.  Or Vengeance or Rez powers and stuff. 

 

I mean I'd like to care.  Be all protective and that crap.  But I don't.  That's the deal.  

 

As long as you are leaping in first, taking the big hit, grabbing aggro, and not activating too many groups at once most teams are not going to need you to actively pay attention to what everyone else is doing. When I tank I try to pay attention to life bars and intervene when someone has gotten aggro they are unprepared to deal with but the other ATs do have function and purpose other than being protected by the tankers on the team...they heal each other, control foes, and occasionally even defeat opponents.

 

If someone has gone off in a corner to get a group of six foes mad at them, while I might (depending on how often they've done this) try to save them, I am not going to say you're doing it wrong if you decide that is a problem of their creation.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Erratic1

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I am the one who originally brought it up, but for a hypothetical Energy Aura Tanker Port.  As a counter point to the idea Infinitium had about just porting Energy Aura at Brute scale to Tankers to keep Def numbers lower to make the Port more palatable to Capt PH.     

 

I thought (and still do) think that porting it at Brute scale is a bad idea.  But at Tanker scale, maybe EA doesn't need that defense from the Stealth Power.   

 

Not taking the Stealth Power on *Dark Armor* seems less than optimum to me,  Since its both an awesome power, a great place to put a LOTG, and it is one of the better looking stealth powers IIRC.   

Yeah I still dont know how this turned into "dont take cloak of darkness"

 

Its insane not to take it, but like you im go go go full toggles keep up with me if you can but I'm going to soul ghoul smash my fist through a lot of bad guys heads and keep them occupied.

 

Never said don't take a key power - just that I particularly dont need the stealth part of it not do most tankers that tanker.   lol

 

But again Again again if you play a different way - and it works. You aint wrong.  lol

[Gobbledigook]

If I play a Dark Tanker for example with stealth I do sometimes run through with some toggles off just so I don't aggro. This can make it easier to click a glowie if no aggro or mobs nearby.

 

But mostly I just charge through and stomp a few mobs that aggro or are near the objective and then just stand there and /flex 💪 haha.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[The_Warpact]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, agreed you need at least in the 80s On a resist based build to be effective.

 

Toggle it on then post where you are at.

Probably going to be mid week I'm back on work schedule, I'll post when I can.

[Lorraine of Pinnacle]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:13 AM, The_Warpact said:

In your opinion or experience what is the tank that just keeps going regardless of enemy type, number of enemies, etc. The one that faces hordes of CoT or Vanguard wizards and laughs, the kind of tank that walks over and kicks Scrapyard in his ass.

 

The last person standing kind of tank, the one that puts "super" into superman, the Unstoppable in Juggernaut, etc.

 

I realize survivability is more than the damage in dealing with a tank, and I love my broots, but, I want a runaway train kind of tank.

 

If max survivability is the goal, here is my Bio Katana tank at 10 enemy saturation, Melee Defense Hybrid is running and Rebirth Radial is going,

 

In Defense Adaption (tank mode) she has 3146 HP + 1874 Absorb Shield for effective HP of 5020.  Base regen is 45.82 HP/S with Absorb on its 75.93 HP/s.  She has two different ways to hit max regen of  327.72 HP/s.

 

In Offense Adaption (dps mode) she has 2977 HP + 1764 Absorb for 4741.   Regen is 43.36, 71.86 and 310.15 HP/s.  This is what I run for almost everything.

 

Bio has a larger Absorb Shield than Rad Armor (longer recharge though, T7), a melee life leech/heal like Dark Armors (longer recharge with only 538 per target, T8) and Bio's T9 combines those two for a melee life leech with Absorb Shield that also maxes out recovery.  Bio armor is amazing.  It far outshines the Stone tank I had back on live.

 

The lack of Defense Debuff Resist usually isn't an issue.  Recharge debuffs will be your undoing, if enough of it hits you. Think Positron, Death Rider. If T7, T8, and/or T9 get significantly slowed, you will have a bad day.  Thankfully, their are inspirations and Accolades that can help mitigate that situation as well.

[Hyperstrike]

Okay, if we're going to toss Hybrid on top, same Inv/SS from earlier, tossing Melee Core on top.

Zero enemies in range.

[Hyperstrike]

And here it is with saturated Invincibility AND Melee Core.

 

Basically unless enemies are throwing pure, unadulterated psi (and even then), it's going to be a tough slog for them).

Edited January 5, 2021 by Hyperstrike

[Dark Dove]

8 hours ago, nihilii said:

I feel compelled to post just to say @Dark Dove has been 100% right in this thread. If you skip CoD, you're losing out on 8% defense. There is functionally no difference between a Dark Tanker and any other Tanker when it comes to aggro management, except by choice.

 

That is, a player who sits around twiddling their thumbs for 10 seconds between each group may find their stealth is recharged; and if they stroll at a snail's pace to the next group, expecting enemies to notice them without input of their own, then yes: it is possible another faster player might get the mobs' attention first.

But, if you play normally, which in my book for a tanker would be jumping from group to group as soon as everyone is inside the mission and ready, always be the vanguard, and open every fight with a large PBAoE (and all Dark Tankers have one large radius fast recharge PBAoE if nothing else: Dark Regen), then your stealth is perma suppressed and you never ever lose aggro.

It's also worth noting that the anemic Tanker playstyle WILL make you leak aggro, no matter what Tanker primary you play. You can't passively rely on mobs hitting you first based on line of sight. One has to actively generate threat with attacks or at least auras (which are very limited in range).

Thanks.  I have been aggressively pro-stealth in this topic and it seems to have ruffled some feathers, which has rattled me, I've made some apologies in private messages because I was out of line at least a few times. I don't think the basics of my argument are incorrect, but I do think my approach has been too heavy handed.

 

On that note, sorry @Infinitum particularly for how I've treated you, you're expressing your thoughts and I've been stomping all over them, sometimes unfairly so.

 

I play very similarly to how you describe, nihilii.  I'm an aggressive tanker that jumps from spawn to spawn as soon as things are under control to keep my team moving at a brisk pace.  This is the playstyle I encourage for today's version of city of heroes.  Absorb alpha strike, manage dangerous targets until the team is settled on the spawn, move to the next spawn before the remaining enemies from the previous spawn are defeated so that you can set up the new spawn for the team's arrival.  Stealth isn't the reason you run stealth as a tanker, you run it for the other benefits.  The stealth aspect is for noncombat purposes, I'm not sure where the lines got crossed and people think that stealth is for avoiding aggro during fights as a tanker with stealth; you use the stealth when you aren't fighting, not when you are, you just keep it running for the defense, immob protect, +perception etc.  It doesn't actually stop you from tanking to full effect.  Stealth is for finishing missions quickly and skipping objective barriers, that's it.  It's good.  Skipping to objectives can be the most efficient way to complete things, and that goes for all levels of content, I'm not just addressing high-octane extreme build speedruns in incarnate content, which makes up the smallest part of the game.

 

I have a lot of faith in the team that runs the servers and creates the content and keeps things moving on Homecoming.  When it comes to EA tankers (if that happens, hope it does) and their choices I'll be happy with whatever they decide, stealth or not, because their reasoning will show in the gameplay rather than theory.  I can talk about how useful stealth is a lot apparently, but if it makes more sense to them to get rid of it, then I'll still probably play EA and I will enjoy it.  My goal here was primarily to compare Dark Armor's stealth component to Energy Aura's, and show that it is something that can be used to good effect even on an AT like tankers, and is actively being used by the community that way.  It isn't a throwaway component, and I hope it is at least considered in the Brute to Tanker translation.

 

@Arisara won't even refer to me by name and keeps calling me the stealth tank fella which is inaccurate in so many ways that it's condescending at best, so I guess I've done all the damage I can do here.  Thanks for all of the insights everyone!  It's at least been a revealing conversation.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And here it is with saturated Invincibility AND Melee Core.

 

Basically unless enemies are throwing pure, unadulterated psi (and even then), it's going to be a tough slog for them).

not even then, thats a colossal tickle fight.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Dark Dove said:

On that note, sorry @Infinitum particularly for how I've treated you, you're expressing your thoughts and I've been stomping all over them, sometimes unfairly so.

No worries - im a tanker - tough hide is part of my build  :-)

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

not even then, thats a colossal tickle fight.

And I could probably tweak it some to blow Psi Resist to 90%.

...TAPTAPTAP

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy!



 

[Lorraine of Pinnacle]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Okay, if we're going to toss Hybrid on top, 

My tank at saturation without Melee Hybrid but with Vigor

288.8 HP/s regen. 

 

 

At saturation without Vigor

245.2 HP/s regen

 

 

Only 1 enemy and without Incarns.

Regen at 79.86 HP/s

[Wobegone]

In regards to the stealth topic I'd like to add one more thing.  Tanks are largely superfluous in todays game, outside of low level content.  This is the elephant in the room no one likes to talk about.  I've tried to stay as relevant with my Dark Tank as possible, he's tough as nails, can absorb enormous amounts of punishment, and feels like a tank.  But in most endgame content he's just another character.   Yes there are specific Task Forces where a Tank is necessary, but they aren't often run by the playerbase.   Although I've always loved CoH specifically because you dont need a trinity to succeed, more and more I've found my favorite tank being less and less useful.  So I made him a stealth specialist for when the occasion called for it, and he's good at it when I turn off certain toggles.  Anything to feel more needed in a team.  Perhaps my experience is unique, and I'm just a fool.  Won't be the first time.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane
Grammar

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And I could probably tweak it some to blow Psi Resist to 90%.

...TAPTAPTAP

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy!



 

Thats why invul - you have to rank it #1 its so versatile.

[Arisara]

21 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

The way you describe things every team has to have a Tanker

Great Maker not another one. How do you understand "every team" from my description? The ONE particular blaster I described needs a teammate that can hold aggro. On a team of all blasters the build I made is going to be the one getting aggro. It will be doing the most damage. Mobs spawned to match team sizes greater than 3 are gonna cut it down without someone having ability to capture aggro. The blaster is built that way on purpose. Damage, recharge, recovery and more damage. It has an accidental 6% resistance to energy negative and just as accidental 6% defenses. This ONE blaster is meant for teams having aggro control. This ONE. ONE.

 

I think of listening to a radio show with a friend. The topic was some kind of child psychology. The speaker said "a child is not born good." My friend immediately spat out "Well, <speaker's name>, you're an idiot." When I asked why he thought that he told me the speaker just said a newborn is born bad. After 20 minutes of trying to explain that's not what the speaker meant I had the idea to example the logic related to Jackie Chan: "Jackie Chan is black", I said, "he must be because Jackie Chan is not white." Of course the next words out of his mouth were "That's different." .. And of course I asked "How?" He had no answer. "That's different" is the reply from someone that can never be wrong. .. Is spoken quickly without thought first. That's what makes me think "not another one", meaning another hearing one thing and somehow understanding something that was never said. Slow down. Think. Then speak. I welcome intellectual insight.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Arisara said:

Great Maker not another one. How do you understand "every team" from my description?

You wrote two paragraphs of 285 words to object to 12 words from a 131 word post?

 

Really?

 

10 minutes ago, Arisara said:

I welcome intellectual insight.

 

A dubious claim given the bottom half of your post is purely to setup an insult. Still, I will give you some insight--if your objection to there being a stealth power in a powerset...no, let me think here...to any tanker having a stealth power (guessing it is fine for there to be a stealth power in the powerset, just the tanker should never take it) is that ONE of your character may at some point maybe perhaps might be inconvenienced, allow me to suggest that what inconveniences one of your characters is not likely to be seen as good basis for set design.

[Arisara]

5 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

 Anything to feel more needed in a team.  Perhaps my experience is unique, and I'm just a fool.  Won't be the first time.

Nope. You're not alone here. My empathy defender felt useless back in 2008 or somewhere around there. I'd emote reading a newspaper while teammates plowed the road. Healing others became unnecessary. We gotta remember, however, the game ended before new challenges came along. With whatever battles Homecoming fights with NcSoft hope is not lost we will eventually see these new challenges should our guys get some kind of creative rights finally. What I found enjoyment doing is taking that then useless defender to lower levels; exemplar to new players. Defending them as they learned. .. And there's Architect Entertainment. Fire farms abound but also great stories through tough challenges. I remade the defender on Homecoming. The build has usefulness in specific places. I may be the fool for hoping someday the game begins expanding again.

[Arisara]

31 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

You wrote two paragraphs of 285 words to object to 12 words from a 131 word post?

 

Really?

Yes; really. .. And ya don't know why.. do ya? Why would anyone use so many words? Hmmm.. moving on.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Arisara said:

Yes; really. .. And ya don't know why.. do ya? Why would anyone use so many words? Hmmm.. moving on.

Oh I know why. Anyone who read your sad little post does.

 

So yes please, do move along.

[Hyperstrike]

23 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

The way you describe things every team has to have a Tanker

Blank "But it goes to 11" look.

Of course!
 

23 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

All <fill in the AT name here> teams have repeatedly been successful including all Blaster teams with not a single Tanker around.

Not saying Tankless teams can't be successful (look at Fire/Rad Controller super-teams for Flaming Roomba Of Death).

Tanks merely make things SAFER for squishies.

This from the guy who's tanked Tower-Buffed Lord Recluse on a Fire/Fire/Pyre blaster.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

You wrote two paragraphs of 285 words to object to 12 words from a 131 word post?

 

Really?

If you're going to do something, do it RIGHT.

Half-assing just causes problems.

 

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

A dubious claim given the bottom half of your post is purely to setup an insult. Still, I will give you some insight--if your objection to there being a stealth power in a powerset...no, let me think here...to any tanker having a stealth power (guessing it is fine for there to be a stealth power in the powerset, just the tanker should never take it) is that ONE of your character may at some point maybe perhaps might be inconvenienced, allow me to suggest that what inconveniences one of your characters is not likely to be seen as good basis for set design.

All that was said is that Stealth is basically antithetical to a Tanker's mission.
Not that a Tanker can't have it.
Not that a Tanker can't benefit from it.
Just that there are times when stealth powers make performing at a high level on a Tanker...more difficult.

If you're reading beyond that, that's on you boss.

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you're going to do something, do it RIGHT.

Half-assing just causes problems.

 

All that was said is that Stealth is basically antithetical to a Tanker's mission.
Not that a Tanker can't have it.
Not that a Tanker can't benefit from it.
Just that there are times when stealth powers make performing at a high level on a Tanker...more difficult.

If you're reading beyond that, that's on you boss.

This.  ^