"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, Troo said:

Annoying to craft and/or use the market, is that what you mean? (I'm just wanting to understand better)

 

I'll definitely concede there is a wide range of fun to be had.

Pretty much. The AH also really doesn't have that great an interface. (and still has some VERY annoying bugs) Which is why I don't bother with inventions till 50. And crafting I also find annoying. I can't craft in the field unless I have the portable crafting table. I just stick to SOs or unslotted til 50.

 

As I mentioned the critical systems involving IOs need be revamped (crafting, the Auction House, how we acquire them, etc) and actual GOOD tutorials created and integrated into the regular flow of storylines/play, before we talk about now making them somewhat required (which is what you would be doing if you changed balance to them, away from SOs)

Edited February 21, 2021 by golstat2003

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Pretty much. The AH also really doesn't have that great an interface. (and still has some VERY annoying bugs) Which is why I don't bother with inventions till 50. And crafting I also find annoying. I can't craft in the field unless I have the portable crafting table. I just stick to SOs or unslotted til 50.

 

As I mentioned the critical systems involving IOs need be revamped (crafting, the Auction House, how we acquire them, etc) and actual GOOD tutorials created and integrated into the regular flow of storylines/play, before we talk about now making them somewhat required (which is what you would be doing if you changed balance to them, away from SOs)

This is exactly part of the balance though, combined with the unknown of how many HC players dive into it. Sure, not every character is gonna be decked out, but enough certainly are anecdotally to where you'd think players are versed. (Not to mention how easy it is to get to 50)

[Coyotedancer]

There's a tendency, especially among forum regulars, to assume that the majority of players in-game do things the same way we do... That comes up rather your talking about IOs, or setting mission difficulty, or just about anything else.

 

Until one of the devs comes in here and says "Yeah, We ran a database sort on the characters people have created, and the majority are using at least partial IO/Set-builds", it's NOT A SAFE BET to assume that our experiences are typical or that a majority are slotting IOs. Not even here on Homecoming, with its higher number of experienced players. 

[oedipus_tex]

12 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

There's a tendency, especially among forum regulars, to assume that the majority of players in-game do things the same way we do... That comes up rather your talking about IOs, or setting mission difficulty, or just about anything else.

 

 

In fairness, I think there's also been a reverse tendency to frame balance discussions around what are perceived to be the game's least experienced players. There's a kind of irony, though, that these hypothetical least experienced folks are mostly voiceless. Most of what we know about them comes from the game's most experienced players. 

At the end of the day, the IO system is just a gear system, and just like gear is discussed in every RPG and MMO out there, it's a subject of constant discussion for CoX. What's somewhat unique to CoX though is an insistence that significant aspects of the gear system are beyond the understanding of just plain folks. 

[Black Zot]

25 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

What's somewhat unique to CoX though is an insistence that significant aspects of the gear system are beyond the understanding of just plain folks. 

 

Hardly.  Name any established MMO with a conventional equipment menu.  I guarantee you SOMEONE has made spreadsheets (updated after every significant patch) to tell the people who don't get the combat math (which is most people) what stats they should be chasing to get the most from their character.  

 

Weighing up the performance of stat X vs stats Y, Z, and Q is beyond the average player of any game.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Black Zot said:

 

Hardly.  Name any established MMO with a conventional equipment menu.  I guarantee you SOMEONE has made spreadsheets (updated after every significant patch) to tell the people who don't get the combat math (which is most people) what stats they should be chasing to get the most from their character.  

 

Weighing up the performance of stat X vs stats Y, Z, and Q is beyond the average player of any game.

 

 

Like many things this is a subject with shades of gray, not just black and white answers.

Decking out a character in full end game IOs is one thing. Understanding that Blessing of the Zephyr provides knockdown protection is something else. But these two things are frequently conflated. 

[Grindingsucks]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is exactly part of the balance though, combined with the unknown of how many HC players dive into it. Sure, not every character is gonna be decked out, but enough certainly are anecdotally to where you'd think players are versed. (Not to mention how easy it is to get to 50)

A buggy auction house and complex, confusing invention system are part of game balance?  

 

I don't see how.  And, in the unlikely event that they are, they shouldn't be.

[Troo]

18 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Hardly.  Name any established MMO with a conventional equipment menu.  I guarantee you SOMEONE has made spreadsheets (updated after every significant patch) to tell the people who don't get the combat math (which is most people) what stats they should be chasing to get the most from their character.  

 

Weighing up the performance of stat X vs stats Y, Z, and Q is beyond the average player of any game.

Ultima Online

[SwitchFade]

15 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ultima Online

Akalabeth? 🤪

[oedipus_tex]

I apologize if this sounds out of line, because I think this is an important discussion and I value people's input. But, sometimes I wonder if in there's a cavalry of low level players running in circles in Atlas Park because they can't figure out keyboard movement, and Its Important That We Balance Around That Not Experienced Players.

[Troo]

10 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Akalabeth

Mondain Doom

[Galaxy Brain]

10 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

A buggy auction house and complex, confusing invention system are part of game balance?  

 

I don't see how.  And, in the unlikely event that they are, they shouldn't be.

It is, due to it being a barrier to access gane, need to overcome. Like all things in the game, it doesn't exist in a vacuum due to you getting random drops all the time (like my lvl 16 mm example) and all the info available nowadays. It leans into the question of the player base, if most people use it and its relatively easy to do it outside the drop system and crappy UI... then changing those bits would be worthwhile. 

 

As another said, I don't think it's too advanced to see an IO and get a gist of what it does. "Chance of Energy Damage" in a "PBAoE Attack" are straightforward to a point where if you just hover over the power you're looking at / clicking the enhancement once made it will show you what to do. It just gets complex when you start looking at stacked bonuses across multiple powers.

 

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I apologize if this sounds out of line, because I think this is an important discussion and I value people's input. But, sometimes I wonder if in there's a cavalry of low level players running in circles in Atlas Park because they can't figure out keyboard movement, and Its Important That We Balance Around That Not Experienced Players.

I think its important to recognize that while you shouldn't balance for the tippity top, the same should be said of the very bottom. There is a certain set of expectations that game has of a player past a certain point in terms of learning the ropes. I would like to assume the base level of balance should be like... level 30ish where you should have played long enough to learn the basics in and out. 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

In fairness, I think there's also been a reverse tendency to frame balance discussions around what are perceived to be the game's least experienced players. There's a kind of irony, though, that these hypothetical least experienced folks are mostly voiceless. Most of what we know about them comes from the game's most experienced players. 

At the end of the day, the IO system is just a gear system, and just like gear is discussed in every RPG and MMO out there, it's a subject of constant discussion for CoX. What's somewhat unique to CoX though is an insistence that significant aspects of the gear system are beyond the understanding of just plain folks. 

Harder to understand than some perhaps.

 

Much easier to understand than others.  

 

Compared to Anarchy Online?  COH is pretty basic.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

 

I think its important to recognize that while you shouldn't balance for the tippity top, the same should be said of the very bottom. There is a certain set of expectations that game has of a player past a certain point in terms of learning the ropes. I would like to assume the base level of balance should be like... level 30ish where you should have played long enough to learn the basics in and out. 

There are advocates of not only balancing the game around SOs, 

 

But that at level 50 its unreasonable to design thing for that SO player to solo at +0 difficulty.

 

Instead they think SO players should be able to crank up the difficulty settings. 

 

IMO a team of SO only peeps should get STOMPED at +4×8

 

 

[Frosticus]

I guess I wonder why we even need the crafting step in place? Why can't crafted IO's just drop instead of recipes and salvage?

The barrier to entry seems to be that it is unreasonable to expect players to craft IO's. I'm inclined to agree, it is probably the most boring activity in this game (for me). 

 

Buying already crafted IO's is cumbersome as well. You need to know tricks to get prices to display among other issues.

 

For those that enjoy the crafting mini game perhaps just "some" crafted IO's could drop. At which point balancing around some degree of IO usage would be more palatable?

[Haijinx]

59 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ultima Online

UO was much trickier than COH because they stomped down HARD on power creep.

 

You only got 700 points for a max level character.  Which you had to not only grind up, but also turn off alternative advancement.  

 

And when you got killed you lost you stuff.

 

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Why can't crafted IO's just drop instead of recipes and salvage?

many would respond with 'yuck'

 

many forms of gear already are available without crafting. It is good design to have tiers and optional routes. (something like AE tickets being used for crafted IOs,. sure maybe)

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Troo

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

In fairness, I think there's also been a reverse tendency to frame balance discussions around what are perceived to be the game's least experienced players. There's a kind of irony, though, that these hypothetical least experienced folks are mostly voiceless. Most of what we know about them comes from the game's most experienced players. 

At the end of the day, the IO system is just a gear system, and just like gear is discussed in every RPG and MMO out there, it's a subject of constant discussion for CoX. What's somewhat unique to CoX though is an insistence that significant aspects of the gear system are beyond the understanding of just plain folks. 

For what it's worth, I seem to end up teaming with a lot of them when I'm on my support characters... And FCM and I are in the process of teaching our brand-new-to-the-game nephew and his mom the ropes of the game, so I'm not just talking out of my bum here when I say we may not be the game's "average players". I see the 'other side' pretty regularly... Plus, very few of those people seem willing to interact with the forums.

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[Frosticus]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

many would respond with 'yuck'

 

Many forms of gear already are available without crafting. It is good design to have tiers a optional routes. (could AE tickets be used for crafted IOs, sure maybe)

As I said in the same post. Recipes and salvage could still drop. Just "some" crafted IO's.

 

edit: like when I complete a tf and get a recipe drop. That should probably be a crafted IO. It never made sense to me that I get a part of something that I can maybe use if I jump through various hoops. I completed the task, give me a usable reward same as the merits/exp/inf/SO's that the task awarded. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Frosticus

[oedipus_tex]

16 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I guess I wonder why we even need the crafting step in place? Why can't crafted IO's just drop instead of recipes and salvage?

The barrier to entry seems to be that it is unreasonable to expect players to craft IO's. I'm inclined to agree, it is probably the most boring activity in this game (for me). 

 

Buying already crafted IO's is cumbersome as well. You need to know tricks to get prices to display among other issues.

 

For those that enjoy the crafting mini game perhaps just "some" crafted IO's could drop. At which point balancing around some degree of IO usage would be more palatable?

 

 

I think this is a good point. The gear progression in City of Heroes is unconnected to the gameplay loop in a lot of ways. Part of my disconnect to the game in the old days was a feeling that the only way to progress past a certain point was to farm. Just playing normally didn't seem to get you far. I'll give the Homecoming server credit, because I have less of a feeling of that here.

City of Heroes has always reminded me of the Diablo series more than most other MMOs (interesting because World of Warcraft is literally built by the company behind Diablo). There's this sense of "you against a dungeon of nonsense" in CoX that I've always found enjoyable. But the "drops" in Diablo were always more exciting. In City of Heroes I definitely don't get a Rikti Alloy and go "Awesome! One step closer to my end game build!" 

 

CoX is interesting because it actually has two models of drop systems in its standard gear and its incarnate system. I feel like more people figure out the incarnate system. Maybe because its rewards are more straightforward? 

Edited February 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

CoX is interesting because it actually has two models of drop systems in its standard gear and its incarnate system. I feel like more people figure out the incarnate system. Maybe because its rewards are more straightforward? 

Oh weird. I've always thought the incarnate system was a hot mess and much less straight forward raising the barrier to entry. Very interesting.

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I feel like more people figure out the incarnate system. Maybe because its rewards are more straightforward? 

 

'Could be. 

 

We haven't gotten to the point of explaining Incarnates to the familial newbies, yet, but I'm curious if that will make more sense to them than the enhancement invention discussions have. 

[oedipus_tex]

Just as an anecdote. Last night I joined a level 50 Task Force on a whim with my Vet level 100 Dominator, who is the most IOed character I have. He's built well but not what I'd call a top performing build. In the opening minutes of the first mission each of the spawns went from full health to zero faster than I could fire a control power. I ran behind the team for about 5 minutes of that, then faked a disconnect so I could speed up the bin engine I had compiling game code in another window. Sorry team (but you didn't need me anyway and that adventure was as much fun as walking the full perimeter of Independence Port). 

Whether that situation was caused by incarnate powers, level shifts, IOs, crashless nukes, damage procs or some combo of those things isn't something I investigated too deeply. The point was that even on my best build I was obsolete. 

I also played the game when it was not tilted quite so heavily toward instantly obliterating spawns and miss that. A lot.

[ForeverLaxx]

59 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

City of Heroes has always reminded me of the Diablo series more than most other MMOs (interesting because World of Warcraft is literally built by the company behind Diablo)

Well, Blizzard North anyway which got dissolved before Diablo II was "officially dead". In fact, much of the Runeword system and the entirety of the "synergy" system had no Blizzard North involvement. WoW was initially designed by ex-Everquest people and the Blizzard that oversaw its development, while the same company, was not the same people of Blizzard North who did Diablo 1 and 2. It's for this reason I tend to have the opinion that Blizzard "died" when North was shut down, as that's the studio responsible for much of the nostalgia Blizzard relies on to this very day.

 

To get back on track, I feel I have a unique view regarding this game. As stated before in other places, I'm a min/max player. I like looking at numbers, I like figuring out how to best avoid "wasted stats" when crafting characters, I like to PvP where min/maxing really seems to matter most, but in games where I have more control over what my character actually does (such as in Diablo, Path of Exile, Darksouls, Bloodborne, and here in City of Heroes) I tend to build a character around a concept then min/max that concept. Except, City of Heroes hits differently for me.

 

I'm on the forums a lot, even if I don't post as much as some of the rest of you. I look for ways to improve my character designs, contribute to threads/discussions where I think my opinion or knowledge would be relevant, and complain about things I feel could be better. In short, I'm part of that "typical forum crowd" that is often just a small section of the playerbase... but in City of Heroes, despite being a habitual min/maxer, despite having a planned PermaDom build that also gets soft-capped S/L Defense, I play the game itself much more casually. I solo most of the time, level pretty slowly because I'm bouncing around to multiple characters every couple of missions, and try to avoid powerleveling because I just don't find the basic 1-50 game boring at all. Despite the fact that I could easily jump into a farm and PL to 50 in a matter of hours, I instead spend almost a year and a half to get my highest level character to 38.

 

City of Heroes, for me, is a place where I can build any character I want, as slowly as I want, and still enjoy results. I even have a Petless Mastermind, something that's probably harder to use than an Empathy Defender with zero attacks. For some reason, around here, my focus shifts entirely to character concept, costumes, and watching them in action. For me, it's not about racing to 50 in 2 hours, loading up on Set IOs, chugging down Incarnate juice, and slapping BP around. What keeps me coming back to this game is the freedom to design my character the way I want to and not be overtly punished for it.

 

I never want to see CoH be changed so that the "expectation" of 200% accuracy and 59% defense becomes the only way you can play because it's the only way you can even survive.

[summers]

35 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I never want to see CoH be changed so that the "expectation" of 200% accuracy and 59% defense becomes the only way you can play because it's the only way you can even survive.

Rest assured that +0/x1 exists.