"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Judasace]

35 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

No.  I just won't play there.

So now I'll ask you.  Why are you trying to make Homecoming into Cake?
Hmm?
Why not just play over there if you just want "Gimme".

 

Where did I say I just want "gimme" ?  It isn't Gimme now, and the only thing I've said is that the existing content and sliders and player choice provide the ability for people to make it as difficult as they want for themselves? My position is simple: Leave the difficulty for existing content as-is and let people play in peace.

 

Now then...why are you trying to make HC into Dark Souls? Why are you trying to force everyone into constant annoyance frustration? 

[GM Tempest]

Debating a topic is not debating a person - focus on the topic at hand and not the person behind it. Keep it civil, people - or I will start stealing sweetrolls 😈

[Solarverse]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:53 PM, Judasace said:

 

According to...? Why should the way YOU want to play cause the game to be changed for all of the other people playing.

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but that is exactly what people used to say in the earlier years of this game when players constantly complained and wanted the game to be easier. Well, they got what they wanted so now the shoe is on the other foot. There is irony here in this statement.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:37 PM, America's Angel said:

You can balance CoH either of the following ways:

 

Option 1 = All IOs, Incarnates, Inspirations, P2W buffs, base buffs

Option 2 = SOs

 

Vast majority of the content in the game is balanced around Option 2. Some rare endgame stuff (trials, hami) is based on Option 1.

 

The game needs more endgame content balanced around Option 1.

 

The game does not need existing endgame content changed to be balanced around Option 1.

 

Option 1 cannot be limited. ("We'll balance around IOs, but not P2W buffs or incarnates", etc). It has to be all or nothing, because that is how the game is played.

 

Golden rule of game balance: balance the game as it is played, not as you wish it was played.

 

I agree, but I do feel like there should be a 1a / 1b or something in there as I strongly feel there is a difference between at least:

 

• Using *everything*
• Using "naturally occurring" resources, which excludes things like Base buffs, or P2W buffs that you have to go out of your way for, and in a similar line only using "dropped" Inspirations instead of pre-gaming an encounter 😛. I feel that many people fall into this category where they will use incarnates / IO's / Insps, but maybe not the other stuff that requires more prep time outside of the normal gameplay loop
• Using Incarnates OR IO's, I feel there is also a small divide here where a decent population uses one or the other
• Then of course using/not using insps at all

 

Ok, that is more than 2 but I guess my main points were the 1st two bullets which I feel is a stronger divide between "prepped" buffs and "builds"

 

 

 

 

[America's Angel]

37 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I agree, but I do feel like there should be a 1a / 1b or something in there as I strongly feel there is a difference between at least:

 

• Using *everything*
• Using "naturally occurring" resources, which excludes things like Base buffs, or P2W buffs that you have to go out of your way for, and in a similar line only using "dropped" Inspirations instead of pre-gaming an encounter 😛. I feel that many people fall into this category where they will use incarnates / IO's / Insps, but maybe not the other stuff that requires more prep time outside of the normal gameplay loop
• Using Incarnates OR IO's, I feel there is also a small divide here where a decent population uses one or the other
• Then of course using/not using insps at all

 

Ok, that is more than 2 but I guess my main points were the 1st two bullets which I feel is a stronger divide between "prepped" buffs and "builds"

 

Players are welcome to put artificial restrictions on themselves when they play. I know it's popular with certain groups on the forum (tankers, mostly) to not use inspirations/P2W buffs/base buffs/incarnates other than alpha. But that isn't "the norm". It's a subset (tankers & those that think like them) of a subset (forum posters) of the playerbase.

 

The vast majority of the playerbase are casuals playing 1-50 on SOs. The game is balanced around them.

 

But let's consider new level 50 content designed for the min/max uber crowd. If you make new content, and balance it around alpha-only/no inspirations...what's to stop uber players using other incarnates/inspirations/etc?

 

Nothing is stopping them. So what exactly would you have achieved in the months-long process of beta testing the "balance" of the difficult new level 50 difficult content? The answer is nothing. All of the uber players will use the resources that you have decided not to factor in when balancing new content. And they will breeze through it, just like they do all the current level 50 content.

 

This is why I said "balance the game as it is played, not as you wish it was played" in my post. Otherwise you'll end up spending 6 months on a new super-hard level 50 taskforce people will learn to speedrun in 15-20 minutes.

[KauaiJim]

GB I think you made good points, but I also think AA is spot on.  I have seen it play out that way almost every time it is attempted.  It doesn't mean peoples desires should not be addressed.  But it does raise what I think is really the base question that seems unanswered in this thread...

 

Is the desired goal to make content that is more challenging for YOU?  (live and let live)

Is the desired goal to make content that is more challenging for EVERYONE because no cheaters/easy mode?  (live and let die)

 

I for one will say this.  Whatever across the board 'rebalance' you guys are talking about - I for one WILL adjust accordingly.  It happens every time this happens.  I've seen this cycle happen in so many mmo's so many times it's almost comical to me (alas - history repeats itself).  Any attempt to nerf usually results in me and other players just finding the next best thing, which hilariously sometimes is even better.  SO - I hope others can see why I think this is a "Can-o-worms" topic and I think the community should at least understand the whole picture and want to maybe establish what exactly the goal is to know whether or not it will work or whether or not it will just end up being yet another cycles of constant rebalances that drives away players.  And not necessarily because they 'MUST BE UBER' but rather they just get sick of having to rebuild their house every 6 months because folks keep burning it down.

 

Not trying to stir anything up with this post - Just hoping maybe some of you could clarify what your personal goal or wish actually is...

 

Edited to add:  And as always I agree with all of your concerns.  There IS a need at least for some content designed around I/O's and incarnates.  As far as P2W...  I think trying to rebalance the game around that would be risky if not a bit crazy...  just my opinion.

 

Oh, and not that it would happen here, but there is a common general behavior in mmo's of once folks get to the other side where the grass is greener they want the river widened so they can feel like they accomplished something special.  Then once they get the river widened they themselves continue the same 'hunt for the next min/max' behavior as the rest of us.  I think they call this Hypocri something or other... lol  

Edited May 19, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 5/8/2021 at 10:52 AM, Hew said:

An example would be a vastly different pool than fighting, that locks fighting out, and instead offers a mix of low level mez prot + mez resist and some bonus other bits, but NO defense, and NO resist. Purely utility. That brings a new challenge into the game, new play styles, and new ways of approaching old problems.

 

I would see all of my squishies flocking to it.

 

Not saying that's a bad thing but it would seem to introduce a new build homogeneity.

[Bill Z Bubba]

44 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

This is why I said "balance the game as it is played, not as you wish it was played" in my post.

 

I agree with this statement.

 

But, unfortunately, until the devs datamine and share information regarding the *actual* percentages of players running IO builds, IO + incarnate builds, SO only builds, etc, we're all shooting in the dark at where the balance levels should be.

 

Which is why I've historically stuck to archetype balance discussions.

[Hew]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would see all of my squishies flocking to it.

 

Not saying that's a bad thing but it would seem to introduce a new build homogeneity.

 

Well, yes and no. I could see something like that driving up desirability to play other squishies in the genpop. People who (like me) flock to mez proof/resist ATs tend to avoid squishies without rock solid ways of living through getting stunned (overwhelming control, domination, faraday cage), and some sort of function like this would be amazing. I certainly would play A LOT more squishies, taking the no-fighting res/def hit, just for having a different sort of fun. More squishies would absolutely take the pool, but then it becomes a legit trade: defense over notgettingstunnedtodeath. Both are equally useful, and some would argue a really well built squishy might not need mezprot at all, by use of the fighting pool.

 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

Players are welcome to put artificial restrictions on themselves when they play. I know it's popular with certain groups on the forum (tankers, mostly) to not use inspirations/P2W buffs/base buffs/incarnates other than alpha. But that isn't "the norm". It's a subset (tankers & those that think like them) of a subset (forum posters) of the playerbase.

 

The vast majority of the playerbase are casuals playing 1-50 on SOs. The game is balanced around them.

 

But let's consider new level 50 content designed for the min/max uber crowd. If you make new content, and balance it around alpha-only/no inspirations...what's to stop uber players using other incarnates/inspirations/etc?

 

Nothing is stopping them. So what exactly would you have achieved in the months-long process of beta testing the "balance" of the difficult new level 50 difficult content? The answer is nothing. All of the uber players will use the resources that you have decided not to factor in when balancing new content. And they will breeze through it, just like they do all the current level 50 content.

 

This is why I said "balance the game as it is played, not as you wish it was played" in my post. Otherwise you'll end up spending 6 months on a new super-hard level 50 taskforce people will learn to speedrun in 15-20 minutes.

 

To be honest that would happen no matter what content at what difficulty you build at this point.

The game engine and what you can actually do in COH at this time is pretty much mostly set in stone.

 

And you have players who have been playing this game for over a decade.

Pretty much any content would be batten and breezed through within a week.

 

That's actually the general nature of MMOs.

 

EDIT: At the time as that the Incarnate Trials were released it really did not take long for them to be each beaten.

 

EDIT2: With that said I'd say HC should STILL make the attempt for those who still want that harder content.

Edited May 19, 2021 by golstat2003

[KauaiJim]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

To be honest that would happen no matter what content at what difficulty you build at this point.

The game engine and what you can actually do in COH at this time is pretty much mostly set in stone.

 

And you have players who have been playing this game for over a decade.

Pretty much any content would be batten and breezed through within a week.

 

That's actually the general nature of MMOs.

 

EDIT: At the time as that the Incarnate Trials were released it really did not take long for them to be each beaten.

 

Correct.  So is the community goal to add new challenging content that is very much something a lot of folks would love?  Or is it to repeat history here?  <-  I for one was kind of hoping HC was a unique enough situation that folks wouldn't want to go the same old tired route here.  There are SO many things common to mmo's that people just assume, well "because that's the way it SHOULD BE darnit!".  And that's fine too.  I just can't tell what you guys are going for here.  Are we trying to recreate 'the general nature of MMO's" here?  Guess I should get ready for a roller coaster...112 respecs!  wee!!!  (being overly dramatic with the 'roller coaster' comment on purpose here to be funny 😉)  I can deal with it but I do want to speak up for a BOAT LOAD of others who feel like this might ruin the game for them (if indeed the goal is to tighten everything down across the board for everyone).

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

 

Players are welcome to put artificial restrictions on themselves when they play. I know it's popular with certain groups on the forum (tankers, mostly) to not use inspirations/P2W buffs/base buffs/incarnates other than alpha. But that isn't "the norm". It's a subset (tankers & those that think like them) of a subset (forum posters) of the playerbase.

 

The vast majority of the playerbase are casuals playing 1-50 on SOs. The game is balanced around them.

 

This is true, but I do feel that most players heavily use dropped inspirations which =/= prepped inspirations (huge difference), as well as anything that drops into their lap such as recipes / Incarnate powers as normal gameplay grants you them. There is a clear line to me between the "normal" game and going out of your way to prep Base Buffs, P2W buffs, Specialized queues of inspirations, or other Temp Powers you can gain from XYZ thing. 

 

The side of the line with the "extras" I feel is not possible to balance around. 

 

Because it is so, so varied in application + allows you to go into ludicrous stat blocks I feel that content cannot be reliably made with those in mind. The access to these used to be their balancing factor but that is out the window now, and with those in mind we cannot feasibly set up encounters that are "fair / challenging" to something with capped stats without it being atrocious if you are not capped / really janky.

 

I feel there is a definite bell curve where if people who strictly use SO's and *nothing* else is on one side, people who use *literally everything* is on the other. We definitely do not want to "force" people to one side or the other.

 

 

14 minutes ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

 

But let's consider new level 50 content designed for the min/max uber crowd. If you make new content, and balance it around alpha-only/no inspirations...what's to stop uber players using other incarnates/inspirations/etc?

 

Nothing is stopping them. So what exactly would you have achieved in the months-long process of beta testing the "balance" of the difficult new level 50 difficult content? The answer is nothing. All of the uber players will use the resources that you have decided not to factor in when balancing new content. And they will breeze through it, just like they do all the current level 50 content.

 

This is why I said "balance the game as it is played, not as you wish it was played" in my post. Otherwise you'll end up spending 6 months on a new super-hard level 50 taskforce people will learn to speedrun in 15-20 minutes.

 

People will learn and conquer all new content, that is a given. The issue to me is that level of stompage that is possible far outpaces what the game offers to be stomped, and that has ripple effects to where certain sets / AT's get impacted by the meta in ways that are not easily fixed. This is certainly exasperated by the access to "outside" boosts such as P2W stacked with tons of insps, etc. The next level down is IOs/Incarnates stacked up, and then from there the base lvl should be SO's + whatever you would consider "average" insp usage as they drop, with the opposite end at the bottom being self restrictions.

 

The game is generally set to be doable by that "base lvl SO + rando Insps", but does not scale up from there while players can far surpass it. Surpassing IMO is fine, its the *far* surpass that is the issue.

 

32 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

Is the desired goal to make content that is more challenging for YOU?  (live and let live)

Is the desired goal to make content that is more challenging for EVERYONE because no cheaters/easy mode?  (live and let die)

 

I am leaning towards the second, but it is a bit more nuanced than just "lol harder". There are real concerns with the meta with how STRONG defense is in general, as well as recharge but thats a totally different animal, on top of raw offense that begins to really dampen whole sets / ATs and impact player fun. Few people care if they do 1% less dps than the other guy in the team. We see a LOT of people caring that "oh, well I guess I did not contribute at all today" when they're in a team.

 

When coming up with "buffs" to the things that get put down by the meta, it is often by homogenizing them to feed into the meta which isn't right, and strips some of the soul away from CoH / the Sets / AT's each time it's done. Instead, there should be efforts made on giving opportunities for those odds and ends things to shine and let players have fun with what they chose instead of feeling superfluous. By definition, any changes made that shake up the meta like that will be more difficult as players across the board will need to adapt. Part of this is content design (more enemies where CC specifically is the "best" way to tackle them, etc), part of this is the name of the thread and looking into loot / equipment balance (do certain IO bonuses / slotting styles stifle others in a way that discourages player choice?), part of it is looking into how to access certain things (is the hard content not done because it is a pain to get to? are P2W buffs/etc too easy to obtain?), all these relate together in a sort of ecosystem, and any changes to it even if healthy overall could see some shifts in the food chain.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Double post, but to be more precise with the goal:

 

In my opinion, the goal should be that the maximum amount of playstyles are viable and carry weight in as many encounters as possible. Currently, there are meta forces that stifle this goal by downplaying swaths of play/build styles "out of competition" on top of in general making team content feel non-impactful.

[KauaiJim]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I am leaning towards the second, but it is a bit more nuanced than just "lol harder". There are real concerns with the meta with how STRONG defense is in general, as well as recharge but thats a totally different animal, on top of raw offense that begins to really dampen whole sets / ATs and impact player fun. Few people care if they do 1% less dps than the other guy in the team. We see a LOT of people caring that "oh, well I guess I did not contribute at all today" when they're in a team.

 

When coming up with "buffs" to the things that get put down by the meta, it is often by homogenizing them to feed into the meta which isn't right, and strips some of the soul away from CoH / the Sets / AT's each time it's done. Instead, there should be efforts made on giving opportunities for those odds and ends things to shine and let players have fun with what they chose instead of feeling superfluous. By definition, any changes made that shake up the meta like that will be more difficult as players across the board will need to adapt. Part of this is content design (more enemies where CC specifically is the "best" way to tackle them, etc), part of this is the name of the thread and looking into loot / equipment balance (do certain IO bonuses / slotting styles stifle others in a way that discourages player choice?), part of it is looking into how to access certain things (is the hard content not done because it is a pain to get to? are P2W buffs/etc too easy to obtain?), all these relate together in a sort of ecosystem, and any changes to it even if healthy overall could see some shifts in the food chain.

 

Thank you!  While I disagree with where you land on this I really appreciate you being willing to be honest about it.  Most folks aren't.  I'll sum up my 'take' on HC vs mmo meta's and homogenization, etc.  If you want to use a calculator to play CoH that's fine.  I don't.  I just want to have fun.  And no, I'm not a girl!  😁

 

Edited to add:  And I think all of us should be honest about what we each want without bashing so I hope this encourages others to start clarifying what thier goal or desire is regarding this topic.  It affects everyone so everyone should have a voice in something like this and hopefully a community as strong as this can do it better than it was done in "other mmo's".  👍

Edited May 19, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Bill Z Bubba]

48 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

If you want to use a calculator to play CoH that's fine.  I don't.  I just want to have fun.  And no, I'm not a girl! 

 

I know it's all in play but I'm pretty sure, due to her never correcting me when I called her a her but that proves nothing, the greatest math-minded player to ever grace these forums was a woman.

 

We even have a mechanism named for her in arcanatime.

 

Edit: No, really, I have absolutely NO farkin clue how she figured that out.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I know it's all in play but I'm pretty sure, due to her never correcting me when I called her a her but that proves nothing, the greatest math-minded player to ever grace these forums was a woman.

 

We even have a mechanism named for her in arcanatime.

 

She just wanted to have fun, Bill 😉 

[KauaiJim]

It's all good guys.  After I posted that I thought, I bet someone's going to think I'm down on that, which I am not at ALL.  In fact I very much both appreciate and benefit from those of you who do that.  No insult intended.  I was trying to present a very very very pared down point.  I really do come here to HC to NOT go through what is 'usual' in other mmo's.  Anyhow it's all splitting hairs.  I'm just hoping you guys will come clean with what you really want because I see a LOT of dancing around it for some folks.  Some folks want to play the game for the reward/challenge/exclusivity/bragging rights.  I am not against that.  I AM against you insisting on widening the river AND getting rid of all boats.  But you have every right to want that and I respect that.  I'm just not seeing a lots of honestly here about what some folks seem to actually want.

 

I have had those very same feelings myself in other mmo's at other times over the last 20+ years, and I have played a ton of them like a fiend who can get enough.  Now I'm relaxing and THAT in fact is key to my personal enjoyment here on HC.  I wish you all could come up with some way to get what you want without torching this place for me or others.  That's all.  And for what it's worth I have options and have no skin in this game really other than saying I like it how it is now can you find a way to be happy without trampling my fun?  If not, not problem.  I have other options and no hate.  I really just meant that comment as a way to show the dichotomy of this situation here.👍 

 

That said - keep posting your feelings all and you ideas.  There is nothing wrong with having your feelings or communicating them.  I just like situations that are clarified and not so vague as to leave me wondering if I should invest more time here on my projects or change my game plan.  That is all.  No harm no foul.  😃

 

Edited to add - And I have a tremendous amount of respect for Arcana.  What she came up with was amazing.  And that goes for a lot of you here too.  So many of you are very knowledgeable and talented and helpful.  I am absolutely NOT disrespecting any of that or any of you and don't mean to be taken that way.   

Edited May 19, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

I'm just hoping you guys will come clean with what you rally want because I see a LOT of dancing around it for some folks.

 

I hope to the dark elder gods that I'm not in this group.

 

All I've ever wanted for this game was to have a situation where I could pick any powerset for any archetype and feel that I was on a similar plane of performance.

 

I really don't think, that with obvious intelligence of the people brought to this type of game, that such a desire would be impossible or even unlikely.

[KauaiJim]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I hope to the dark elder gods that I'm not in this group.

 

All I've ever wanted for this game was to have a situation where I could pick any powerset for any archetype and feel that I was on a similar plane of performance.

 

I really don't think, that with obvious intelligence of the people brought to this type of game, that such a desire would be impossible or even unlikely.

 

Thanks for pointing that out too.  I'm not trying to single anyone out and no - I'm not referring to any specific person.  You are all good.  I'm really sorry if you guys feel like I'm being down on anyone or what they want or their playstyle.  I'm really just trying to get some specifics here because from my perspective a thread like this can result equally in good things and bad things when folks aren't right up front with what is REALLY driving their desires and requests.  It's not meant to be a negative label at all for folks who have any opinion that differs from how I currently feel in this current situation (specifically Homecoming).  This whole thing is a GIFT to me.  I will enjoy what I receive and not complain when it stops.   But I would like to be able to get a better pulse on what is going to happen as a result of this very valid request/concern.  I'm simply suggesting some other way than widening the river and then removing all boats for all of us "in the name of challenge and established mmo stuff".  Maybe MY perception is off.  I just don't get that read here at HC.  But I would like to know before I continue to invest in my current characters whether I am wasting my time here or I should take my projects and playstyle elsewhere (which I'm okay with if it makes others happy).  For what it's worth I keep repeating I have other options.  I feel for those who don't however so I try to speak up and get clarity.  My apologies for any offense to anyone.

 

Edited to add:  What's really funny here is I completely agree with most of what you are all saying.  I'm not sure though that I agree with retro-fitting exclusivity back into the older content here instead making some NEW way to give folks IO/incarnate challenge and even some exclusivity as a reward.  By saying the 'calculator' comment, I wasn't knocking it at all.  I was pointing out that even though I used to feel exactly the same way in other mmo's, I simply don't feel that way here and I'm sure there are folks who pop into these (and other) game forums and think WTH?  I didn't know it was so complicated to have fun!  I think a lot of us seasoned mmo players start deep diving into the nuts and bolts and that is great.  But some folks really do "Just wanna have fun".  My efforts to bring some stability and direction to a tricky issue in order to prevent me having to move on make as much sense as anyone else's to do the same.  Hopefully people can take what I say kindly and lovingly because that's what is actually behind it.  Posting on the internet is inherently full of miscommunication land mines and I do my best. 😃

 

Since I love analogies so much allow me to punish all of you with yet another one...

This ice cream shop serves vanilla but no chocolate.  Lots of of folks come here to buy and enjoy the vanilla.  Lots of folks remember chocolate and miss it and want it here.  What I'm having  disagreement with (and it is simply that I disagree - nothing more) is the idea the that ice cream shop should switch to chocolate and get rid of vanilla, instead of ADDING chocolate to the menu.  I don't think I can simplify my point or concern any more than that.  And at the same time I don't think I can convey any more strongly that I do not feel like I am right and others are wrong. I'm just honestly hoping to understand better WHAT THIS THREAD MEANS for the future of Homecoming.  Because I do think this is very relevant.  

Edited May 19, 2021 by KauaiJim

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is true, but I do feel that most players heavily use dropped inspirations which =/= prepped inspirations (huge difference), as well as anything that drops into their lap such as recipes / Incarnate powers as normal gameplay grants you them. There is a clear line to me between the "normal" game and going out of your way to prep Base Buffs, P2W buffs, Specialized queues of inspirations, or other Temp Powers you can gain from XYZ thing. 

 

The side of the line with the "extras" I feel is not possible to balance around. 

 

Because it is so, so varied in application + allows you to go into ludicrous stat blocks I feel that content cannot be reliably made with those in mind. The access to these used to be their balancing factor but that is out the window now, and with those in mind we cannot feasibly set up encounters that are "fair / challenging" to something with capped stats without it being atrocious if you are not capped / really janky.

 

I feel there is a definite bell curve where if people who strictly use SO's and *nothing* else is on one side, people who use *literally everything* is on the other. We definitely do not want to "force" people to one side or the other.
 

People will learn and conquer all new content, that is a given. The issue to me is that level of stompage that is possible far outpaces what the game offers to be stomped, and that has ripple effects to where certain sets / AT's get impacted by the meta in ways that are not easily fixed. This is certainly exasperated by the access to "outside" boosts such as P2W stacked with tons of insps, etc. The next level down is IOs/Incarnates stacked up, and then from there the base lvl should be SO's + whatever you would consider "average" insp usage as they drop, with the opposite end at the bottom being self restrictions.

 

The game is generally set to be doable by that "base lvl SO + rando Insps", but does not scale up from there while players can far surpass it. Surpassing IMO is fine, its the *far* surpass that is the issue.

 

Speaking purely in the context of balancing super hard level 50 TFs...you 100% can balance around these extras. You just have to assume players:

-Stack insps to be at the +dam cap.

-Stack insps to be at the +def cap / are softcapped through IO bonuses

-Have Destiny bonuses.

-Have controllable Lore pets.

-Puts out a certain amount of -res.

-Have high global +rech

 

There's ways to counter all of this with PVE mobs: Autohit attacks counter excess defense, AVs with large AoE debuffs that reduce damage/recharge/accuracy by like 200%, control attacks which turn your lore pets against you, have AVs/missions that require the use of certain inspirations to function (and thus reduce the amount of insp tray space for other stuff.)

 

Anything can be countered by a dev team with enough time on their hands.

[Bill Z Bubba]

37 minutes ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Speaking purely in the context of balancing super hard level 50 TFs...you 100% can balance around these extras. You just have to assume players:

-Stack insps to be at the +dam cap.

-Stack insps to be at the +def cap / are softcapped through IO bonuses

-Have Destiny bonuses.

-Have controllable Lore pets.

-Puts out a certain amount of -res.

-Have high global +rech

 

I can't assume any of that because I never spam insps nor do I run with the P2W buffs. Except when I remember that I can buy mez protection for my squishies.

 

For the rest of it, I don't want to assume. I want the devs to datamine the facts and share them with us.

[America's Angel]

14 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I can't assume any of that because I never spam insps nor do I run with the P2W buffs. Except when I remember that I can buy mez protection for my squishies.

 

For the rest of it, I don't want to assume. I want the devs to datamine the facts and share them with us.

 

You would probably find the super hard TFs a struggle, then. (Which is good! That would mean they're as-advertised!)

 

Honestly, you'd want them to be super hard even for people who were insp-chaining/T4'd out with incarnates/etc.

 

I made a thread about it a while back, actually...

 

 

[arcane]

I consider this game 99% pretty easy and I will never use my email for more inspirations. Design a rare thing or two around incarnates and IO’s by all means please, but absolutely nothing should be designed around people that abuse tricks and temp powers etc if you ask me. Fuck that.

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The access to these used to be their balancing factor but that is out the window now, and with those in mind we cannot feasibly set up encounters that are "fair / challenging" to something with capped stats without it being atrocious if you are not capped / really janky.

 

I feel there is a definite bell curve where if people who strictly use SO's and *nothing* else is on one side, people who use *literally everything* is on the other. We definitely do not want to "force" people to one side or the other.

 

I feel like setting the defense hard cap at 40% would make the existing content and difficulty levels fair/challenging to capped and not atrocious to not capped toons.  It would also not force anybody to one side or the other.  

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The issue to me is that level of stompage that is possible far outpaces what the game offers to be stomped, and that has ripple effects to where certain sets / AT's get impacted by the meta in ways that are not easily fixed.

 

This is my goal for promoting a 40% defense hard cap.  It would slow down the stompage, giving some value to highly affected sets/AT’s, while also not stopping it.  

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The game is generally set to be doable by that "base lvl SO + rando Insps", but does not scale up from there while players can far surpass it. Surpassing IMO is fine, its the *far* surpass that is the issue.

 

Couldn’t agree more!  Why not bring down the far surpassers?

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

There are real concerns with the meta with how STRONG defense is in general, as well as recharge but thats a totally different animal, on top of raw offense that begins to really dampen whole sets / ATs and impact player fun. Few people care if they do 1% less dps than the other guy in the team. We see a LOT of people caring that "oh, well I guess I did not contribute at all today" when they're in a team.

 

Clearly you recognize the issue with the availability of the soft cap to all archetypes.  I’ve given the numbers for a 40% hard cap.  Why would you be against it?

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Instead, there should be efforts made on giving opportunities for those odds and ends things to shine and let players have fun with what they chose instead of feeling superfluous.

 

100% agree.  Lowering the defenses would allow more odds and ends to shine rather than just “soft cap and stomp”.  

 

My my goal is always to promote a healthy and balanced game in order to achieve longevity.  I want to play CoH for a long time with a healthy community.

[KauaiJim]

28 minutes ago, arcane said:

I consider this game 99% pretty easy and I will never use my email for more inspirations. Design a rare thing or two around incarnates and IO’s by all means please, but absolutely nothing should be designed around people that abuse tricks and temp powers etc if you ask me. Fuck that.

 

I feel the same way.

 

To add to it - The "Hello Kitty Online" version of CoH is certainly available here on HC if you want it.  I consider it a plus and gives those folks something to enjoy also.  I can certainly understand why this irritates some folks, but I don't agree that it needs to be eradicated.  It is an option.  Not a forced way to play.  No one is grabbing anyone's hand and making them move their mouse and forcing them to walk up the the P2W vendor and play "Hello Kitty".  That is absolutely voluntary.  If the real concern or complaint is that this game (even prior to live shut down) had made so many things available to players as to trivialize content AND offer nothing that challenges them I could not agree more.  Pointing at IO's makes sense because they contribute to that 'problem'.  Feeling like an ED or NGE level game rebalance is in order though I just can't get on board.  I know that IS NOT what some of you are saying, but I'm getting the feeling that is what some of you are wanting.  And that is okay too - I just want clarification.  I am 1000% for addressing this issue PRIMARILY via a method that gives EVRYONE a chance to enjoy the game.  Seems reasonable to me but what do I know.  That also doesn't mean everything else IMO should be locked down in a static state like it is now.  By all means make adjustments (as they have been).  It simply means I would like to hear less number and fact dropping to support that there is an issue or concern and more what does this community really want and expect to be done about it and do I belong here once those changes are implemented.  But just like everyone else, there is no rule that says you guys have to do things KauaiJim's way or even provide me with an answer.  I am simply asking.

Edited May 19, 2021 by KauaiJim