Do Dominators Need a Buff?

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Machariel said:

There's really nothing TO take from "use your controls better" other than "get good".  I might as well say "build your character better" and it would be equally helpful. 🙄

There's plenty that *can* be taken from it. But, hey, people want to take it that way, not my problem.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Runewritten said:

That said, I would definitely support moving mez protection from Domination to a permanent spot, which I think would alleviate the obligation people feel to be 'permadom or bust.'

At that point, the remaining ATs have part-time (Defiance leaving certain powers free to use, Khelds having a few options) or set-dependent (most of the remaining squishy-classes having access to FF or Sonic, at least) mez protection. Do we start having the "why is mez only affecting some percent of these ATs" argument then? Do we start talking about removing NPC mez from the game - or alternatively jacking it up to such high levels chasing certain builds or having specific sets on a team is required?

 

Yes, I know, "oh no, slippery slope, can't say that," but just because it has a name doesn't mean it's necessarily false. The arguments for removing it from the others at that point grow. Especially with access to it for everyone once we hit incarnates, so it's not just this specific comment that leads me to bring it up. 

 

Mez's binary-ness in the game has been a discussion for a while now, after all. Does the whole control system need a rework - both NPC and player side? And what kind of rework would *work* and keep things interesting without being able to be completely invalidated and bypassed with a few IOs?

[Seed22]

31 minutes ago, Greycat said:

There's plenty that *can* be taken from it. But, hey, people want to take it that way, not my problem.

Now if this isnt some dramatic irony right here..

[Runewritten]

 

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

At that point, the remaining ATs have part-time (Defiance leaving certain powers free to use, Khelds having a few options) or set-dependent (most of the remaining squishy-classes having access to FF or Sonic, at least) mez protection. Do we start having the "why is mez only affecting some percent of these ATs" argument then? Do we start talking about removing NPC mez from the game - or alternatively jacking it up to such high levels chasing certain builds or having specific sets on a team is required?

 

I think you're extrapolating an awful lot. Moving the mez protection doesn't have to be straight power creep-- it can be for a lower magnitude, as suggested already, and/or domination tweaked to counterbalance the shift. 

 

Maybe the mez protection increases with your domination bar. No domination built up, no protection-- but every 20% is a 1 mag boost. Activating Domination no longer adds mez protection, so it ends up being a tradeoff-- you gain offensive power while sacrificing protection.
 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Runewritten

[oedipus_tex]

I honestly can't see a huge shift in power from Dominators getting mezz protection that is independent from Domination. Since issue 6, Dominators were always supposed to have better mezz protection than the other squishies. It was built into their inherent, and other archetypes had very few avenues for mezz protection. The Force Field/Sonic/Traps sets, and Indom Will in the Controller APPs. I can't think of any reason for lowering their mezz protection Mag and can think of many reasons it should be highest of any class in game, given how much other archetypes have encroached on Dom territory.

 

By around issue 16 or so it was clear the developers were balancing Dominators around permadom. Most changes to the class have tended to happen to what happens outside of permadom, to pull that performance upward, rather than adjust how Dominators perform in peak form. I think it was Castle who I remember explicitly stating he was doing whatever he could to preserve permadom performance since that was the main attraction people had to the class.

 

Something that I hope doesn't get lost in this though is that it's not just permadom that constrains Dominators, but long recharges in general. It happens that going permadom fixes both issues. But a hurdle for this class has always been 90, 120, 180 and 240 second cooldowns that lead to a lot of standing around waiting for things to recharge. Unlike Controllers, a Dominator without a Control power has almost no mitigation. I wouldn't be against slashing all of the longer mezz recharges/end costs in half in return for half mezz durations.     

Edited February 1, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[GM Tock]

As in other topics, please try to remain civil in discussion everyone.

 

Breathe.  Exhale.  Take a few minutes or an hour if you need.  And never post angry. 🙂  Carry on.

[Greycat]

34 minutes ago, Runewritten said:

I think you're extrapolating an awful lot. Moving the mez protection doesn't have to be straight power creep-- it can be for a lower magnitude, as suggested already, and/or domination tweaked to counterbalance the shift. 

 

Maybe the mez protection increases with your domination bar. No domination built up, no protection-- but every 20% is a 1 mag boost. Activating Domination no longer adds mez protection, so it ends up being a tradeoff-- you gain offensive power while sacrificing protection.
 

It is a bit of extrapolation, and I acknowledged that. That said, it's hard to argue that "who can be mezzed" *is* becoming a smaller and smaller circle - not even of specific ATs, but of powersets inside those ATs, and then of course Clarion's effects. Which are, granted, temporary... but given how much Incarnate content is also league-size content, that temporary-ness is offset somewhat (and that's ignoring that whatever might mez *you* has an entire league's worth of targets to choose from as well, making it less likely that you'll be that target. After all, that's kind of the point - or one of them - of tanks on teams, as well - to gain that attention and push through it so that your squishies don't have to. The tank becomes almost literal mez *protection* for everyone else.)

 

The ramp up ... hmm. Is an interesting idea. I don't think it would have a huge impact on *my* playstyle, since where it ramps up is probably where I"m in a longer fight and would hit domination anyway (or, hey, teamed and the mez love is getting passed around)  but it wouldn't be detrimental either. I'd be interested in seeing what it does on test, at the very least.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Greycat

[SwitchFade]

18 hours ago, Snarky said:

not sure, but i think we have to nerf Regen

Omgzorz, regen too OP, nerf twice.

 

Doms need all powers replaced by brawl. All brawl.

 

Oh and, answer to OP: No.

[oedipus_tex]

If you ever need a good example of how far off the mark some of the Dominator powers were before Homecoming got ahold of them, go look at the original Icy Assault > Chilling Embrace:

 

 

Yes folks, you too can enjoy a 10ft radius slow aura that detoggles if you get mezzed and the enemy escapes with about 2 seconds of running (note to developers: tiny radius run speed debuffs kind of defeat the point. 🙂 )

Homecoming did make this power much better. But I think Dominators as a whole could still be taken further given the shaky place they started from. And if I was talking to the devs over at Cake, Thunderspy, or anyone playing on a private deck I'd say those Dominator versions need updates urgently.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

At that point, the remaining ATs have part-time (Defiance leaving certain powers free to use, Khelds having a few options) or set-dependent (most of the remaining squishy-classes having access to FF or Sonic, at least) mez protection. Do we start having the "why is mez only affecting some percent of these ATs" argument then? Do we start talking about removing NPC mez from the game - or alternatively jacking it up to such high levels chasing certain builds or having specific sets on a team is required?

 

Yes, I know, "oh no, slippery slope, can't say that," but just because it has a name doesn't mean it's necessarily false. The arguments for removing it from the others at that point grow. Especially with access to it for everyone once we hit incarnates, so it's not just this specific comment that leads me to bring it up. 

 

Mez's binary-ness in the game has been a discussion for a while now, after all. Does the whole control system need a rework - both NPC and player side? And what kind of rework would *work* and keep things interesting without being able to be completely invalidated and bypassed with a few IOs?

Nothing. The mez system as is fine. I don't think you could actually improve it, but you could make it worse if you make the wrong changes. I say leave it alone, the devs have more important things to focus on. Trying to change a system that old at this time is NOT a good use of dev time.

 

I don't think it would be that big a deal to move mez protection out of domination and onto dominators directly. Do I want them to do that? No. Would I care if they did? I'd just /shrug, say "neat" and keep playing my Doms when I do.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

It is a bit of extrapolation, and I acknowledged that. That said, it's hard to argue that "who can be mezzed" *is* becoming a smaller and smaller circle - not even of specific ATs, but of powersets inside those ATs, and then of course Clarion's effects. Which are, granted, temporary... but given how much Incarnate content is also league-size content, that temporary-ness is offset somewhat (and that's ignoring that whatever might mez *you* has an entire league's worth of targets to choose from as well, making it less likely that you'll be that target. After all, that's kind of the point - or one of them - of tanks on teams, as well - to gain that attention and push through it so that your squishies don't have to. The tank becomes almost literal mez *protection* for everyone else.)

 

The ramp up ... hmm. Is an interesting idea. I don't think it would have a huge impact on *my* playstyle, since where it ramps up is probably where I"m in a longer fight and would hit domination anyway (or, hey, teamed and the mez love is getting passed around)  but it wouldn't be detrimental either. I'd be interested in seeing what it does on test, at the very least.

I  . . . don't think incarnates even matter in this convo of who can or can't be mezzed.

 

It's level 50 content, end game. The End Game League you're on is making you better in ALL aspects: Damage, Recharge, Defense, Resistance, etc. Mez Prot being there via Clarion isn't a big deal compared to all the other ways your League is making you overpowered (a good thing, that's one of the major selling points of teaming in COH).

 

If we're talking about mez protection, makes more sense to come at from the 1-50 game, which a majority of players are going to spend their time.

 

Interesting discussion though.

Edited February 1, 2021 by golstat2003

[Mezmera]

Being a Dom main for a long time now I'll chime in here.  Leave domination as it is, it's been tinkered with already, this ability is what sets it aside from other easy to play zombie AT's.  It's too hard for you and you have problems grasping how to make a good dom and are unable to get a good feel for it, that's fine, but that's not so for everyone that plays this game.  I find  most other AT's mind numbingly easy to play but I don't go asking for a change to them to quench my thirst for  more challenge, I'll just stick to my doms.  

 

Domination should be left as it is, you want to change the fundamental base of an AT go do that for something else.  The better thing to do is to modernize their assault sets as they have done some already.  I think AT's like blasters and stalkers have just outpaced in their upgrades in comparison to doms so it's not as appealing to play one but you can still be a fantastic animal on one although it's a bit of a challenge.  

 

Before we go asking for a wholesale change if anyone would like to see what a dom is capable of in experienced hands I'd challenge anyone to bring their favorite toon and see if you can keep pace with my dom.  You might just find out it's not the dom it's you.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mezmera

[siolfir]

15 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

To be honest, 3-4 points of Mez protection as well as 25% Mez Resistance would be quite enough for almost all situations, and if it comes from an inherent power that would basically be permanent out of the box, it's probably as strong as it should be. And it would give room to actually want to build for Mez Resistance from other sources, to minimize the chance that you'll get 2-3 mezzes stacked upon you.

I originally had 4-6 down instead of 6-8 but thought about the prevalence of mez in the 30s and on meaning that you probably wanted to cover at least 2 applications. I agree that 4 is usually more than enough, but have had times where 10 points would still get me mezzed even with IO mez resistance bonuses on a Brute.

 

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Since issue 6, Dominators were always supposed to have better mezz protection than the other squishies. It was built into their inherent, and other archetypes had very few avenues for mezz protection. The Force Field/Sonic/Traps sets, and Indom Will in the Controller APPs. I can't think of any reason for lowering their mezz protection Mag and can think of many reasons it should be highest of any class in game, given how much other archetypes have encroached on Dom territory.

Nitpick: the mez protection wasn't added until after issue 7, and given that it was an add-on and lesser magnitude than armor secondary ATs (Brutes and Stalkers, since at the time they were the only "armored" ATs available) I think it would be pushing it to say that the intent was to make them impossible to mez. Yes, they had better mez protection than other squishies - temporarily, without multiple +recharge buffs on teams until IOs came along and gave Dominators the ability to boost their own recharge (which is why it also acts as a Break Free).

 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Being a Dom main for a long time now I'll chime in here.  Leave domination as it is, it's been tinkered with already, this ability is what sets it aside from other easy to play zombie AT's.  It's too hard for you and you have problems grasping how to make a good dom and are unable to get a good feel for it, that's fine, but that's not so for everyone that plays this game.  I find  most other AT's mind numbingly easy to play but I don't go asking for a change to them to quench my thirst for  more challenge, I'll just stick to my doms.  

 

Domination should be left as it is, you want to change the fundamental base of an AT go do that for something else.  The better thing to do is to modernize their assault sets as they have done some already.  I think AT's like blasters and stalkers have just outpaced in their upgrades in comparison to doms so it's not as appealing to play one but you can still be a fantastic animal on one although it's a bit of a challenge.  

 

Before we go asking for a wholesale change if anyone would like to see what a dom is capable of in experienced hands I'd challenge anyone to bring their favorite toon and see if you can keep pace with my dom.  You might just find out it's not the dom it's you.  

A hard /agree with the above.

 

The design of Dominators allows a wonderful balancing act of Attack -> -Endurance and Domination -> +Endurance, plus the Mez protection and boost to holds. 'Perma' Domination involves a very different sort of build and play style that rewards player investment (in both build choices and play style) in VERY noticeable ways. There is absolutely no reason to change Dominators and Domination.

 

Do they need a buff? I don't think so. There are probably a few powers in individual sets that could stand to be looked at, but I don't think that is exclusive to Dominators.

 

EDIT: I always forget this, but there is ONE area where I think Dominators (and Controllers) could use a 'visual effect buff'. I'd like it if it was possible to have a few different choices (customizable at the tailor) for the ATO-summonned 'Fiery Orb' and 'Energy Font'. The net effects can be the same for all I care, but having visuals that match other power sets would be peachy-keen.

Edited February 1, 2021 by tidge

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I agree that 4 is usually more than enough, but have had times where 10 points would still get me mezzed even with IO mez resistance bonuses on a Brute.

 

I can see that, but a Brute generally can't interrupt attacks as well as a Dom can. And they draw more aggro. So a Resist-based Brute will likely get hit a lot more, and could end up having higher mez stacks. But to me, that's fine... the combination of mez Protection, Resistance, and your own Mezzes to limit the incoming mez attacks should prevent much stacking most of the time... and considering that the proposal is for effectively permanent mez protection (and that's a click, too, so it remains active through a mez, so as soon as the stack drops below its protection, you're active again), I don't think they would need a high level. Malta are going to be a pain, but, well, it's Malta and you can still pre-mez them as well as build for defense.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

EDIT: I always forget this, but there is ONE area where I think Dominators (and Controllers) could use a 'visual effect buff'. I'd like it if it was possible to have a few different choices (customizable at the tailor) for the ATO-summonned 'Fiery Orb' and 'Energy Font'. The net effects can be the same for all I care, but having visuals that match other power sets would be peachy-keen.

 

Totally support this. My Fire Dom summoning Fiery Orbs is awesome. My Mind Dom, not nearly awesome. He should have a sparky ball of psionic fluff like Penelope Yin.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Totally support this. My Fire Dom summoning Fiery Orbs is awesome. My Mind Dom, not nearly awesome. He should have a sparky ball of psionic fluff like Penelope Yin.

... I completely read this as you calling Penny Yin a sparkly ball of psionic fluff.  🙂

[Coyote]

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... I completely read this as you calling Penny Yin a sparkly ball of psionic fluff.  🙂

I wasn't really, but she totally IS.

[arcane]

I don’t think dominators need a *buff* in net terms, but further tweaks to their dynamic could be a good thing. I don’t think permadoms in their final form need to be any stronger, but tweaking either (1) the gap between permadoms and other doms or (2) how hard it is to get perma dom would be fine. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Meh. Possibly meh? I've got a couple doms. One is permadom without hasten. One is permadom with hasten. Another one hit 50 but hasn't really been played since. I think I also suffer from the "too many damn powers to choose from while in combat" feeling. Having to add to the clutter with macros for all the targeted clicks just to make them single click attacks doesn't help. Do they need a buff? Probably not. Do I like the way domination functions? No, not really. I'd far rather they have a passive inherent. Adjust all the control mags to 50% between dom and not dom values and call it a day.

[Parabola]

After trying doms a few times I've found I just don't really get on with them. It's the bits and pieces format of the assault sets mostly. What are we supposed to do with all those fairly samey single target attacks? Why do the aoe options have to not play nicely together? Does everything have to be a click power?

 

I've been wondering if branching power choices could be put to good use in assault sets. Allow the player to pick a more coherent set of melee or ranged powers. Add in more utility picks like toggles to reduce the reliance on click powers. Maybe shuffle some powers down from the epic pools to make doms a bit more user friendly at low levels.

[ScarRee]

Earth/Energy Assault is pure lovely. It doesn't need a buff 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, ScarRee said:

Earth/Energy Assault is pure lovely. It doesn't need a buff 🙂

I rather fancy my earth/earth dom but she suffers from everything I mentioned earlier while still being a visceral joy due to all the smashy smashtastic goodness.

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, siolfir said:

Nitpick: the mez protection wasn't added until after issue 7, and given that it was an add-on and lesser magnitude than armor secondary ATs (Brutes and Stalkers, since at the time they were the only "armored" ATs available) I think it would be pushing it to say that the intent was to make them impossible to mez. Yes, they had better mez protection than other squishies - temporarily, without multiple +recharge buffs on teams until IOs came along and gave Dominators the ability to boost their own recharge (which is why it also acts as a Break Free).

 

 

I don't think the original intent was to make Dominators impossible to mezz, only to make them significantly better at dealing with it than most other squishies. For a while if you wanted a mezz protected squishy they were the only show in town and it was a selling point for why you would pick one. That is where I think they have lost ground and why it would be justified to restore their ascendant status as being unusually good at warding off mezzes. 

 

Their access to mostly perma mezz protection also wasn't accidental. By the time the developers revisited Domination to move the +Damage out of it, the mezz protection was an established aspect of permadoms. The changes made to Domination in the years since focused on not disturbing the status of permadoms while elevating non-permadoms to be more competitive. The developers were very explicit that permadom was being carefully preserved as an end-game state and that they were balancing the class around that level of performance. 

[Machariel]

I would like to rescind my previous statement that I wouldn't make any changes to Dominators as I would definitely like to see improvements in one regard:

 

Their ATO sets!

 

Ascendancy of the Dominator is probably OK as is.  On one hand it has insanely useful set bonuses when 6 slotted (10% rech and 5% ranged def!) and a lot of the sets that fit into control powers are pretty gross so it's nice to have a set that can fit anywhere.  On the other hand, I've never been a big fan of the stacking +damage bonus, because I'm usually not spamming control powers that aren't slotted for damage, if at all.  The +damage proc doesn't jive well when it's in control powers that only get used once or twice per fight (Seeds of Confusion, Wormhole etc).  Some Assault powers can be slotted for mez (Stuns from /Energy, Midnight Grasp from /Dark, etc) and maybe the stacking +damage proc would be a good choice here.  Maybe it would work better alongside damage procs in something like Terrify but then the /recharge component of the enhancement reduces the proc rates, and in any case I don't think the ATO set should be designed with damage procs in mind.  So, I would be open to changing the set and curious what people would think.  As is it has some good perks and some drawbacks and I normally slot it into my AoE Immobilize.

 

The Dominating Grasp set on the other hand has all of the same issues with the Ascendancy Set - namely that it only goes into control powers which I don't want to spam - but the Fiery Orb pet is super weak and the set bonuses aren't as good. 

 

It's possible that one 'intended' way to slot the dominator ATOs is to 3 slot Ascendancy in 2 different powers and 2 slot Dominating Grasp in 3 different powers, which lets you maximize the bonuses to control duration and you'd wind up with 40% to immob and sleep and 20% to other types. 

 

I'm not sure what changes I'd make to them but an initial suggestion would be:

1) Change the Ascendancy +Damage proc from +20% damage for 10s, stacking up to 3 times to +30% damage for 15s, stacking up to 2 times.  No hard math behind the numbers, I just think it'd work better. 

2) Give the Dominating Grasp set a damage component to its enhancements and allow it to be slotted into damaging powers in Assault sets.  Either buff the fiery orb pet or turn it into a damage proc on par with controller/corruptor ATOs.