Can We Please Pin a Thread with Decent Powerset Pairs?

[Chaosnet3]

With a thousand character slots you have plenty of room for trial and error now as opposed to what you had in Live.  I would suggest the following test (which I think someone stated in part):  1)  decide what is fun for you - if you like blasting, determine if what you like about blasting is the actual damage or range and decide if a blaster is the AT that you want as opposed to other range blast type characters, 2)  do a search for your proposed primary/secondary and see how much traffic it has and what people are saying about it as this can inform your decision some - you may find that the consensus of a primary/secondary is REALLY positive...at 50 and with full Incarnates and 750M influence of IO sets which may not be the experience that you want, 3) as @oldskool said the info on a Primary+Secondary may not be readily available but chances are high that someone at sometime somewhere posted about the primary and someone else posted about the secondary.  Once armed with this info go into Mids and fiddle a bit and see if you can get the character where you want them to go.

 

Thanks to this new experience I make new characters whenever the fancy strikes - some don't last and get deleted, some get sent to purgatory and aren't played again and some teach me a little about power pairings after running some Atlas solo missions and some DFBs.

 

Good luck on your search!

[Olly]

Going against the grain here a bit...

- If you care for damage (since, you're, hey, a blaster) then look at the previously referenced Blaster Primary comparison thread for some clues. This also breaks down a bit based on playstyle preferences: ranged vs. blapper; and single-target (ST) vs. AOE, with some thought to available ranged and ST powers in secondaries. That should set you up deciding your Primaries if strictly looking at damage, and help you winnow your secondaries choice.

 

- If you care about "I wanna play like a kick-ass [insert theme here]", then you again will limit your choice, and depending on whether you care more about thematics than damage, you might to make some alternate choices. (Although keep in mind you can somewhat change power colours to try to keep within theme. 

 

- If you care about "playstyle speed", there are a few that tend to stand out. AR I've never tried (I'm damage oriented so I avoid it), Archery has slower draws (though iirc this might be solved at the tailor, not sure); which might not pair well with certain secondaries (you really chose a clumsy combo with Archery/Dev, my sympathies), and DP also feels "slow" and "weak" to me. Devices I found kind of slow due to all the setup time for the main powers.  Plant might also be slower, but not sure. The remaining primary and secondary powers generally "feel" about the same level of animation draw speed. Sonic has somewhat annoying sound effects.

 

- Going back to ranged vs. blapper. All the secondaries seem to have sufficient melee powers that would be useful for blapping. *But* some are actually higher damage than others, while other secondaries offer useful buff/debuff options. If you rather be ranged, and don't care so much about theme, they you're looking for secondaries which have powers that nicely complement your chosen primary, either buff/debuffs that will stack effects on your damage, or effects that keep your enemies at bay.

 

- Some people will make a note of whether you plan to level up through normal gameplay, and/or intend to play past level 50. And/or if you plan to team or solo. Generally speaking from my experience, it doesn't seem to matter. You just need to keep your enhs in healthy shape, change the slotting mix as needed, and respec at some point (def at level 50). Aoe vs. single-target damage, I don't really think matters for teaming or solo. If you really want to push it, then create a second build (or third) build.

 

So in summary, you probably at first need to decide whether you will prioritise theme or damage first. Then if you care about playstyle speed. Then lastly, whether you care about ranged or blappering. Once you decide, maybe come back and post your preferences in the forums; I'm sure lots of ppl would be willing to give their opinions and suggestions.

 

[Resolve]

On 2/20/2021 at 6:08 PM, Herotu said:

Any/Any doesn't really help solve decision paralysis.

Been there, done that, did not work for me either. Random/random then fiddling around with the character creator has, however. At worst I learn a bit about the AT, at best I get a new main.

[Resolve]

Doublepost

Edited February 25, 2021 by Resolve
Doublepost

[UltraAlt]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, Herotu said:

This is about avoiding awful combinations

 

There are no awful combinations

[Hopestar]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

There are no awful combinations

Not true, the most extreme case being Sonic/Dark/Munitions; This would be awful to play because it counters itself in the worst ways wanting you to be in close range but far for all the cones and all while dealing very little damage. This is also not the only one of it's kind, Assault Rifle is also mostly cones, Beam/Energy would have a difficult time clearing anything more than 1 at a time.

Most of this thread seems to be in agreement that there are no bad builds, but anyone that says that clearly hasn't cared to think of reasons a combination of powers would be bad.

As per this thread, I tried to make a list of builds in everything, but they were never stickied, nor the best way to do it. What needs to happen is a build-sharing website which has been in the works for more than a year now, which can have a rating system to show what people think is the best builds. Even then it's flawed. If you want a really good opinion on how a build will function, try the Homecoming Discord where the min-max veterans tend to hang out.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Hopestar

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Hopestar said:

Not true, the most extreme case being Sonic/Dark/Munitions; This would be awful to play because it counters itself in the worst ways wanting you to be in close range but far for all the cones and all while dealing very little damage. This is also not the only one of it's kind, Assault Rifle is also mostly cones, Beam/Energy would have a difficult time clearing anything more than 1 at a time.

Most of this thread seems to be in agreement that there are no bad builds, but anyone that says that clearly hasn't cared to think of reasons a combination of powers would be bad.

As per this thread, I tried to make a list of builds in everything, but they were never stickied, nor the best way to do it. What needs to happen is a build-sharing website which has been in the works for more than a year now, which can have a rating system to show what people think is the best builds. Even then it's flawed. If you want a really good opinion on how a build will function, try the Homecoming Discord where the min-max veterans tend to hang out.

 

There is a difference between objectively bad and subjectively not to your tastes. You do not want to move around in using your powers. That does not mean others would have a problem with it. Not sure why Sonic/Dark gets a special mention when any other */Dark combo is going to want to get close for various Dark effects.

Beam's schtick is spreading Disintegration. The one and only Blaster I not only could tolerate but enjoyed sufficiently to play to level 50 is a Beam/Martial character. You live for the joy of seeing DISINTEGRATE and DISINTEGRATE SPREAD appear over the heads of things. So I am not sure where the notion comes from that it is lacking in area damage. Its all about how you arrange to clump foes for it.

 

But not liking a combo? Well, I burned my way through dozens of Blasters and broadly its not a favorite AT of mine. Does that mean Blaster is objectively bad? No, it means that on the whole the AT is not my cup of tea. Likewise your dislike of various combinations within it--they do not appeal to you for perfectly valid subjective reasons. But not workable? Not appealing to someone? Doubtful.

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Erratic1

[Hopestar]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

There is a difference between objectively bad and subjectively not to your tastes. You do not want to move around in using your powers. That does not mean others would have a problem with it. Not sure why Sonic/Dark gets a special mention when any other */Dark combo is going to want to get close for various Dark effects.

Beam's schtick is spreading Disintegration. The one and only Blaster I not only could tolerate but enjoyed sufficiently to play to level 50 is a Beam/Martial character. You live for the joy of seeing DISINTEGRATE and DISINTEGRATE SPREAD appear over the heads of things. So I am not sure where the notion comes from that it is lacking in area damage. Its all about how you arrange to clump foes for it.

 

But not liking a combo? Well, I burned my way through dozens of Blasters and broadly its not a favorite AT of mine. Does that mean Blaster is objectively bad? No, it means that on the whole the AT is not my cup of tea. Likewise your dislike of various combinations within it--they do not appeal to you for perfectly valid subjective reasons. But not workable? Not appealing to someone? Doubtful.

 

It's not about "do not want to move around", it's that your powersets want you to simultaneously be in melee range and far away for the cone and moving back and forth is obviously a loss in effectiveness. Sonic/Dark gets a special mention because as I mentioned previously, it is mostly long activation cones which you need to be at considerable range for them to be effective.

 

"So I am not sure where the notion comes from that it is lacking in area damage." Oh I don't know, maybe it's the fact that every attack is single target and disintegrate spread is not the same as AoE damage.

 

"But not workable? Not appealing to someone?" These are 2 different things both of which are not the premise of this thread, nor anything I said. Obviously if a set did not work it would be a major problem unrelated to the topic at hand. Obviously appealing to someone is subjective and unrelated to the topic at hand.

I do feel like I'm talking to myself though a lot on this forum because I know people aren't reading what I wrote and just forcing their opinion upon it especially when you say "subjectively not to your tastes" despite me giving a great example of a set that actively works against itself.

So I reiterate:
"Most of this thread seems to be in agreement that there are no bad builds, but anyone that says that clearly hasn't cared to think of reasons a combination of powers would be bad."

[Nemu]

There are certainly underperforming/less synergistic combinations. Some of that also hinge on playstyle. /Dev and /TA are great for pure rangers but poor choices for melee blasters. You have to deal with redraw on most weapon sets when paired up with other non-weapon secondaries, and that might be too annoying for some people.

 

I find Sonic blast to be the most unsatisfying blast set to play. The animation rooting is bad, the damage is subpar and it takes too long to ramp that damage up and goes against the blaster tenet of "kill or be killed." Pair that with devices, a set favored by ranged only blasters for it's utility and not additional damage, and you'll have a pretty underwhelming character damage wise. It's gimp in my eyes but I'm sure people have made it work.

 

As a melee blaster /Dev and TA are bottom of the barrel for me, they add very little to my ability to kill stuff quick or hit stuff hard. I also don't like the pure theme combos like fire/fire, ice/ice, etc. I like diversifying my damage type and most of these thematic pairings have little synergy with each other, or rather, have better options for synergy. Take for example Sonic/Sonic - one has a arsenal of cones and favors ranged play and the other one is melee heavy with a pbaoe -res Aura that screams "plant me in melee where mobs are!" Speaking of cones, I generally do not like primaries with a lot of cones, they make life difficult for melee blasters with the constant repositioning.

[Erratic1]

22 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

It's not about "do not want to move around", it's that your powersets want you to simultaneously be in melee range and far away for the cone and moving back and forth is obviously a loss in effectiveness. Sonic/Dark gets a special mention because as I mentioned previously, it is mostly long activation cones which you need to be at considerable range for them to be effective.

 

"So I am not sure where the notion comes from that it is lacking in area damage." Oh I don't know, maybe it's the fact that every attack is single target and disintegrate spread is not the same as AoE damage.

 

"But not workable? Not appealing to someone?" These are 2 different things both of which are not the premise of this thread, nor anything I said. Obviously if a set did not work it would be a major problem unrelated to the topic at hand. Obviously appealing to someone is subjective and unrelated to the topic at hand.

I do feel like I'm talking to myself though a lot on this forum because I know people aren't reading what I wrote and just forcing their opinion upon it especially when you say "subjectively not to your tastes" despite me giving a great example of a set that actively works against itself.

So I reiterate:
"Most of this thread seems to be in agreement that there are no bad builds, but anyone that says that clearly hasn't cared to think of reasons a combination of powers would be bad."

 

So by your reasoning Energy Blast  is just a miserable set because its attacks knock things away and that can mean out of range so you'll have to move, hence its working against itself?

 

Yeah, good luck on that one.

 

At the point where you're thinking you're talking to yourself and everyone else is wrong? Certainly possible but the odds favor you needing to re-evaluate what you're saying and how you're saying it. Reiterating something which isn't true, no matter how many times you repeat it, does not make it true.

[Hopestar]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So by your reasoning Energy Blast  is just a miserable set because its attacks knock things away and that can mean out of range so you'll have to move, hence its working against itself?

 

Yeah, good luck on that one.

Yes, that's exactly what it does actually if your secondary is mostly melee like /Dark... 🤨
Energy/Energy or /TA or /Dev, etc. can actually be helpful in your survivability keeping enemies away indefinitely without getting in the way of your secondary...

[Nemu]

This discussion is mostly centered around IO builds.

 

Things change up a lot when we take that out and talk about SO builds.

 

I was asked to join a MLTF and LRSF the other day, the requirement is that I use an SO build and no incarnates, as with the rest of the team. I had to make some pretty drastic changes to my approach to building Jezebel with only SOs. Thunder Strike and Force of thunder, which are staples of /elec survival in an IO build were skipped entirely because without the -kb IO, radial knockbacks are way less desirable especially on teams, and thus relegated to skip status. I dropped scorpion shield as well because I wasn't going to have decent defenses anyway. I had to pick up acrobatics for the kb protection, something I haven't done in ages. And I took electric mastery for another cone, the resist shield and another hold to stack with shocking grasp, the latter is something that I have never bothered with on softcap builds.

 

So in the world of SOs would I rank fire/elec as highly as I do with my IOed build? Nope, not even close. /ice and /martial will rise to the top. Slows which mess with Mob AI are underrated but highly effective. I didn't include /fire because it's a one trick pony and hot feet comes in way too late at too high an end cost.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Nemu

[Olly]

14 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So by your reasoning Energy Blast  is just a miserable set because its attacks knock things away and that can mean out of range so you'll have to move, hence its working against itself?

 

Yeah, good luck on that one.

 

Yes, it would be, if your interpretation of "miserable" makes it so. Which for some people, including myself, might be close to the mark. Saying 'that's not miserable' is negating that person's interpretation of what is miserable for them. Just because you don't find it a problem for yourself, doesn't mean it's not a bad experience for them.

 

Again, "bad build" or "no bad build" is by definition, subjective. Which is why on my post above, I suggest to the OP to be more specific about priorities that imply what they find "fun" and "not fun" and their priorities thereof. Not all builds play exactly the same. What I suggest is better defining what the OP wants in terms of useful decision criteria specific to this problem.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Olly said:

Yes, it would be, if your interpretation of "miserable" makes it so. Which for some people, including myself, might be close to the mark. Saying 'that's not miserable' is negating that person's interpretation of what is miserable for them. Just because you don't find it a problem for yourself, doesn't mean it's not a bad experience for them.

 

Pretty sure I wrote:

Quote

Likewise your dislike of various combinations within it--they do not appeal to you for perfectly valid subjective reasons.

 

So why are you trying to portray me saying otherwise?

[Olly]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Pretty sure I wrote:

 

So why are you trying to portray me saying otherwise?

What exactly are you saying, @Erratic?

 

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Olly said:

What exactly are you saying, @Erratic?

 

Exactly what I wrote. Its posted above but here is a Cliff's Notes version:

 

Quote

There is a difference between objectively bad and subjectively not to your tastes. 

 

That is the opening line of the post. Everything that follows is to elucidate that point. And I clearly stated the validity of one's subjective view of a powerset combo.

 

The only meaningful objection to what I wrote is to hold that there are powerset combos which objectively are bad--not a matter of personal view, they are definitionally or emergently bad in a way that is as clear to everyone as the Sun rising in the east.

 

[Olly]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Exactly what I wrote. Its posted above but here is a Cliff's Notes version:

 

 

That is the opening line of the post. Everything that follows is to elucidate that point. And I clearly stated the validity of one's subjective view of a powerset combo.

 

The only meaningful objection to what I wrote is to hold that there are powerset combos which objectively are bad--not a matter of personal view, they are definitionally or emergently bad in a way that is as clear to everyone as the Sun rising in the east.

 

Thanks for that. What is clear to you may not be clear to everyone else. So the clarification is useful. Getting back to solving the OP's ask, again, I state there are specific decision criteria which I have found to be useful: thematic vs. damage, ranged vs. blapper, and "smooth playstyle" which includes such things such as avoiding combos like Archery/Devices. If you or others have your own criteria for "bad" or "good", to me that is the more valuable contribution.

[Elia87]

I wanted to make a ranged ice blaster that deals high dmg..what secondary should i pair him with? 

[kelika2]

Thread Title:  Fire

Thread body: Fire

Thread signature: Fire

Reason for editing:  More Fire

 

Secondary?  I guess Fire

Edited March 11, 2021 by kelika2
Reason you reported this post? Not enough Fire

[Doomrider]

On 2/17/2021 at 5:14 PM, Herotu said:

Can We Please Pin a Thread with Decent Powerset Pairs?

 

I know it'll vary over time as the devs buff/nerf stuff - we can unpin it and put a new thread with decent builds / ones to avoid when that happens.

 

As someone who mained Archery/Devices blaster in Live I am very anxious about making a gimped character and often have decision paralysis when it comes to character creation because of this.

 

I'd love a quick reference that says "that's a no-go" or "sure, give that a try" for each of the pairs.

 

This goes for every archtype, so this might be the wrong forum for the post.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

The bar for success in this game is so low, fun should be the foremost consideration when choosing powersets. If you don't enjoy what you are playing, it won't matter how decent or powerful it is.

That being said, if you feel a thread like would be useful, why not start one and throw up a list of what you consider decent pairings and get others to chime in on those. Maybe they can add to the list with combos they feel excel when paired together. Just because it may or may not be pinned doesn't mean it can't be used as reference later for others.

[Marshal_General]

How well would beam rifle and ninja training pair up?

[The_Warpact]

It is based on opinion though, something that a friend might despise as a non working set might be something I enjoy and it has happened. 

How about can someone pin a thread of FotM builds i could see that, these sets would be what gets the most notice, mileage, and popular. 

Example Rad/FA broots

Psi/Nrg blasters

Elec/Psi doms

Etc

 

You could quite literally start your own thread based on the observations from each AT thread on what is popular.

Edited March 16, 2021 by The_Warpact
Stupid fat fingers or spell check whatever

[Bionic_Flea]

Here's a link to the player stats; slide a bit down from the top for Blasters.  It's a year old now but it has some interesting info on popular sets and combos.

 

 

 

It seems like people like to have themed combos -- fire/fire is the most popular blaster combo followed by energy/energy and archery/tactical arrow.  Sonic is the least played primary and ninja training is the least played secondary.  At that time, there were only 2 AR/Electric in the entire game, indicating perhaps that those two sets don't pair well.

 

On the other hand people took that list and sought out combos like that and found a way to make them work.  For example, I made an AR/Traps Corrupter as those were the two least played corrupter sets.

 

So while there are certainly sets that play well together and have synergy and become popular FOTM, you can also find oddball combos and make them work.  They may not be able to solo a +4/x8 ITF with no temp. powers, inspirations, or deaths, but they can be tons of fun and hold their own solo and in teams.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Tahliah]

On 2/18/2021 at 7:03 AM, Herotu said:

Keep your platitudes, I'd rather address the topic at hand.

 

This is about avoiding awful combinations - I'm not interested in winning or losing or being good or bad. 

 

This is nonsensical. Obviously, if you want to avoid "awful" blaster powerset combinations, you are interested in avoiding losing and being bad.  The statement actually suggests that you are very interested in winning and being good, no? 

 

And that wasn't a platitude, either, it's true that any combination can work for a variety of players.  The key is to find what works for you, not what is the failsafe click and win blaster combo/build.  There is no such thing, and that's what makes COH so freaking awesome! 

 

I main an Ice/Ice blaster, and I love her and use her primary and secondary powers as I deem necessary to my play style.  That said, a lot of players find /ice lacking and make decent arguments for their stance and for their suggested secondary replacements.  But I love /ice and make it work for me in a way that another secondary would not and could not.  I understand the set, how it works together, how I can maximize damage, and how I can survive (almost) any battle.  But that's me.  Others love the ice primary and prefer to run it with /traps or /poison, both of which are killer (in both senses of the word) options. 

 

With those players, ice/traps or ice/poison is impressive and drool-worthy, but in my hands, it wouldn't be as great (because I run /ice and understand that secondary and use it optimally).  It really is about the player--their style, their preferences, the content they run most frequently, and etc.  That's not a platitude, it's a fact. 

 

As a weird sort of experiment, I built a blaster with the least popular/arguably least useful primary and secondary powersets for blasters, she's electric/atomic, I think (honestly, I can't remember, but I made her after one of the most/least played combos came out, picking least played).   Totally off-the-wall, in other words, an "awful combination," even, but she works.  Granted, I don't play her that much (I have a dual problem of a deep love for my main and altitisis that conspire to keep me from playing test and fun toons).  My point is that even purposefully choosing a supposedly doomed blaster combo, she works. 

 

Keep in mind that the player behind the toon matters.  I've seen and been in complete awe of other ice blasters, but I could never play those builds as successfully or well because mine is built (and played) so completely differently.  Likewise, my main would be a bumbling disaster for someone who has never played a blaster, much less an ice/ice/ice blaster, before. 

 

Sometimes platitudes are repeated because they are truth.  As in this case.

 

 

[Herotu]

... and yet I see posts like this on the forum, which in this case was comparing Ice/Ice Blaster to Ice/Ice Dom...

On 3/13/2021 at 7:02 PM, oedipus_tex said:

For end game iTrials this particular Blaster is loads better than this particular Dominator. No comparison, zero. 

This seems pretty straight forward. What am I not understanding?