Toughest/most survivable

[Xandyr]

Ok, OTHER than Stone (Granite), what's everyone opinions when it comes to the toughest/most survivable brute secondary?

 I'm thinking about making another brute (NOT for farming), and about the only requirements I have is I want a damage aura.

 I'm thinking/Dark might win out, with /Electric being close? 

 

What's your all's thoughts/input?

 

Appreciate it!

[ninja surprise]

If they follow the same general toughness as Tanks, it'd be Bio then Ice, and then Elec beating Dark. 

Of course with enough IOs you can get them all up to about the same toughness.  I guess it depends on which stats you want to have a head start with.

 

 

[Snarky]

Dark/Invul

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Snarky: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(7)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Max HP%(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(17)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 8: Dull Pain -- NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(A), Mrc-Heal/Rchg(25)
Level 10: Siphon Life -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(27), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Hct-Acc/Rchg(29), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Hct-Dam%(31)
Level 12: Resist Elements -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(31), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 14: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(36)
Level 20: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(37), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(40), Rct-ResDam%(40)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Arm-Acc/Rchg(42), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Arm-Dam%(43)
Level 28: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(45), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(45)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 38: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(48), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Apc-Dam%(50)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(46), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Tactics -- RctRtc-Pcptn(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Rcvry+(19)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19), EndMod-I(21)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

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[Snarky]

Oh, you want a Damage aura?  My main is Dark/Dark.  A Damage Aura and 2 Mezze Auras!

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Snarky 2.2: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(3), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Hct-Acc/Rchg(5), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Hct-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(15)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Arm-Acc/Rchg(23), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Arm-Dam%(25)
Level 8: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(27), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(27), UnbGrd-Max HP%(29)
Level 12: Siphon Life -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(33)
Level 14: Arcane Bolt -- SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(A)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(33), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(34), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(36), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 20: Cloak of Darkness -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(37), Rct-ResDam%(37), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37)
Level 22: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 24: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(42)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- CldSns-%Dam(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(39)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(45)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 38: Soul Tentacles -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(45), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(45), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(46), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(46), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(46)
Level 41: Dark Obliteration -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 47: Rune of Protection -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 49: Soul Transfer -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(17), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
------------

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[Xandyr]

I'm kinda leaning towards MA/Bio. Any input/thoughts on this combo?

[ninja surprise]

3 hours ago, Xandyr said:

I'm kinda leaning towards MA/Bio. Any input/thoughts on this combo?

Sounds like fun, do it!  

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Xandyr said:

I'm kinda leaning towards MA/Bio. Any input/thoughts on this combo?

thoughts?   Liu Kang, the new Toxic Avenger!

[Doomguide2005]

Pretty much any Brute can

1) Be built tough and highly survivable.

2) Has it's problematic mobs.  Yours will likely be Cimerorans (and other strong defdebuffers) as once your defenses drop they're going to get really painful very quickly.  

[Omega Force]

Bio is like, the opposite of toughest and most survivable.  Rad or Invuln are the toughest by combining resistance with heals or defense, respectively.  Bio and Fire are more offensive than defensive, but they're good at it.

[Saikochoro]

On 3/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, ninja surprise said:

If they follow the same general toughness as Tanks, it'd be Bio then Ice, and then Elec beating Dark. 

Of course with enough IOs you can get them all up to about the same toughness.  I guess it depends on which stats you want to have a head start with.

 

 

This test should not be used to make conclusions on universal toughness. If you are trying to know what the toughest set is on just SOs and just standing still using the armor set then this is good information. 
 

However, this is not how much of the game is played. If full IO builds are thrown in then the above tests should not be used to rank toughness. For example, bio is nowhere close to as tough as shield defense when a full set IO build is used. However, in the those tests bio consistently ranks higher than shield and shield often ranks very low. 
 

I would rank shield and invulnerability to be the toughest armor sets. I put shield ahead of invulnerability because it also helps kill the enemies faster due to its offensive bonuses on top of extreme toughness. Pair it with dark melee or possible rad melee to cover the lack of healing and you have probably the toughest combination that you will get. Or pair them with MA for a constant 7.5% boost to defenses for additional buffer against debuffs. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Saikochoro

[Erratic1]

50 minutes ago, Omega Force said:

Bio is like, the opposite of toughest and most survivable.  Rad or Invuln are the toughest by combining resistance with heals or defense, respectively.  Bio and Fire are more offensive than defensive, but they're good at it.

So the ablative shield, heal, and regen boosting Bio does doesn't count for survivability?

[Snarky]

For a trip down the rabbit hole read the 48? pages on Regen armor that is currently a hot topic on General Discussion page.  In a nutshell, Bio is a good armor.  There ar no bad armors.  There are armors that are way easier to make tougher, and there are armors that will always be tougher.  Bio is a good armor, with flexibility and some offensive capability.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

So the ablative shield, heal, and regen boosting Bio does doesn't count for survivability?

Bio is awesome for +damage.

Bio in defensive mode is pretty good/ok but then you're giving up the +damage. My stone/bio brute is a whole lotta fun to play but she's not nearly as sturdy across the board as my SR, Inv or Shield brutes and suspect the same will be true for my future ma/elec brute.

 

Here's the other side to bio: my claws/sr scrapper has a 3min pylon time. My claws/bio scrapper has a 2min pylon time. If superiority through excessive damage is your gig, Bio is a great choice. If survivability is your main goal, there are better sets.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Bio is awesome for +damage.

Bio in defensive mode is pretty good/ok but then you're giving up the +damage. My stone/bio brute is a whole lotta fun to play but she's not nearly as sturdy across the board as my SR, Inv or Shield brutes and suspect the same will be true for my future ma/elec brute.

 

Here's the other side to bio: my claws/sr scrapper has a 3min pylon time. My claws/bio scrapper has a 2min pylon time. If superiority through excessive damage is your gig, Bio is a great choice. If survivability is your main goal, there are better sets.

Two things...

 

• The damage is 25%. Versus Fury I am not sure that is even worth worrying over. 180s versus 120s? Presumably without Offensive stance you'd have taken 25% longer for 150s, which is still less than 180s. That suggests Offensive Stance is not what put your Claws/Bio over your Claws/SR.
• Efficient stance grants a minor amount of extra endurance but more significantly it grants a 22.95% endurance cost discount. That means you can burn faster, so long as you can actually manage to go faster. And you do that with no penalty to your resistances like in Offensive stance. You just have to build to attack faster. And that is ignoring that you get boosted Regeneration and Recovery from it via Ablative Carapace, Evolving Armor, DNA Siphon, and Parasitic Armor (note that Bio has T9 power you can actually use).

 

I do not disagree that Bio gives you an offensive boost, I just I think most people are going about it the wrong way. Why take a defensive hit if you do not have to?

 

In any event, the claim I was I refuting was:

 

Quote

Bio is like, the opposite of toughest and most survivable.

 

Again, what is Ablative Carapace doing for you? DNA Siphon? Parasitic Aura? Making you more survivable last I checked. I am not sure how that is the opposite of toughest and survivable.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Erratic1

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Again, what is Ablative Carapace doing for you? DNA Siphon? Parasitic Aura? Making you more survivable last I checked. I am not sure how that is the opposite of toughest and survivable.

I wouldn't agree that Bio is the opposite of toughest and most survivable. That'd be regen. 🙂

[Erratic1]

On 3/5/2021 at 7:50 AM, Xandyr said:

I'm kinda leaning towards MA/Bio. Any input/thoughts on this combo?

Is there a reason for Martial Arts? 

 

I do not have anything against it (never even played) but it does not seem to do anything all that meaningful/useful--minor disorients and knocback. Certainly if it fits theme or is interesting to you for whatever reason, go for it. 

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Is there a reason for Martial Arts? 

 

I do not have anything against it (never even played) but it does not seem to do anything all that meaningful/useful--minor disorients and knocback. Certainly if it fits theme or is interesting to you for whatever reason, go for it. 

 

Martial Arts gives you 7.5% defense to everything on a Brute, and 10% defense to everything on a Tanker.  It's very, very helpful.

[Hyperstrike]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:55 PM, Xandyr said:

Ok, OTHER than Stone (Granite), what's everyone opinions when it comes to the toughest/most survivable brute secondary?

 I'm thinking about making another brute (NOT for farming), and about the only requirements I have is I want a damage aura.

 I'm thinking/Dark might win out, with /Electric being close? 

 

What's your all's thoughts/input?

 

Appreciate it!

Depends.  Are you talking "Tanker Toughness Test" (SOs only)?

Or are you talking an optimal IO build?

If the former, look up the T3 thread.

If you're talking an optimal IO end build?
Stone is the absolute toughest.  PERIOD.  It's pretty much immune to everything except...curbs...stairs...cracks in the pavement...
Down from there, people will argue all over the place for Bio.  Sorry, they're wrong (get over it guys).
Invuln is basically the toughest customer in the game that doesn't have Stone's crippling defects.

Beyond that...why mess with perfection?

😁

Edited March 7, 2021 by Hyperstrike

[Galaxy Brain]

13 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

This test should not be used to make conclusions on universal toughness. If you are trying to know what the toughest set is on just SOs and just standing still using the armor set then this is good information. 
 

However, this is not how much of the game is played. If full IO builds are thrown in then the above tests should not be used to rank toughness. For example, bio is nowhere close to as tough as shield defense when a full set IO build is used. However, in the those tests bio consistently ranks higher than shield and shield often ranks very low. 
 

I would rank shield and invulnerability to be the toughest armor sets. I put shield ahead of invulnerability because it also helps kill the enemies faster due to its offensive bonuses on top of extreme toughness. Pair it with dark melee or possible rad melee to cover the lack of healing and you have probably the toughest combination that you will get. Or pair them with MA for a constant 7.5% boost to defenses for additional buffer against debuffs. 

Agreed, the tough test is more looking at the raw base stats of each armor and nothing else. In reality, there are a lot of factors that can impact every set and have them ultimately perform to different degrees.

 

That said, even on SO's a lot of the showings in that thread are impressive to me given the survival vs 4/8

[Seed22]

I understand the mindset that people wanna claim invuln and Stone as the best. They used to be, definitely not anymore. It is, most observably, Rad and Bio. They are the polished results of years of armor building. My Bio/Spines, if needed( it almost never is) can become a mini granite tank with none of the drawbacks minus the damage thing with defensive. And Rad is just flat out better than the res sets in the hands of good IO builders

[Omega Force]

15 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

So the ablative shield, heal, and regen boosting Bio does doesn't count for survivability?

Those count linearly.  Resistance and defense count multiplicatively.  It's the same reason buffs>heals.  I have no doubt Bio is good or fun, but it is not the toughest.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Omega Force said:

Those count linearly.  Resistance and defense count multiplicatively.  It's the same reason buffs>heals.  I have no doubt Bio is good or fun, but it is not the toughest.

 

I have no problem with an argument that Bio is not the toughest. It was entirely the notion that it was somehow at the far end of survivability.

 

As for scaling linearly, those things I listed do not exist in isolation and get better based on your resistance and defense. Nothing precludes you having high values in both of those.

 

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I understand the mindset that people wanna claim invuln and Stone as the best. They used to be, definitely not anymore. It is, most observably, Rad and Bio. They are the polished results of years of armor building. My Bio/Spines, if needed( it almost never is) can become a mini granite tank with none of the drawbacks minus the damage thing with defensive. And Rad is just flat out better than the res sets in the hands of good IO builders

in a word.  horseshit.  Built out (which you specifically mentioned a built out character) my Dark/Dark will stand right beside a Rad or Bio and not have any issues.  My Dark/Invul Brute is guaranteed tougher than them.  and my Invul/Dark Tank?  Fuggedaboutit

 

My Dark/Dark Brute.  With no external buffs, incarnate powers, no Rune of protection (which he has) or any outside help.  Stone cold resist numbers 80.8% S/L, 53.77% Energy, 77.79% Neg, 74.03% Fire/Cold, 50.02% Toxic, and 85.16% Psi.  30-37% Defenses from I/O except Psi, ranged, and AoE, those are lower.  He has various T4 incarnate powers.  He has Rune of protection, he carries a moderate amount of purple and orange inspirations, and he has +107.5% global recharge before haste or either of his two Force Feedback proc attacks add to that.  Which really helps bring Dark Regeneration (11 second rech stone cold, 6-8 second with personal buffs) up and give back a full health bar. Also, Does Rad or Bio have stealth or TWO mezz auras to deal with trash lts and minions?  Because Dark Armor does.  And it works.  (I use a kismet and have purples etc for global accuracy, those things hit!)  Oh, and probably finally Dark/Dark is constantly debuffing the tohit on mobs.  

 

Rad and Bio play by the rules Def>Res>heal.  Dark/Dark says "Stealth>Mezze>Def>tohit debuff>Res>Heal, and oh, if it gets to heal 'best in game'"

 

Oh, one last thing.  Dark Armor has an incredibly powerful self rez with a huge stun and untouchable.  Try bouncing back like that on a Rad or Bio!

 

Maybe Rad or Bio is 'tougher' than this.  But you are going to have a hard sell telling me it is 'observably tougher' Because the Dark/Dark Brute is going to stand there and take whatever the Rad or Bio takes.

 

Conversely, with the exception of Psi (very rare damage type) a Dark/Invulnerable Brute WILL be 'noticeably tougher' than a rad or Bio Brute.  I run the Dark/Dark as a main not because it is tougher.  I like the strange tactics and strategies of Dark/Dark, the damage aura, the stealth and the two mezze auras.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Snarky

[Galaxy Brain]

This also all hinges on the content. S/L/E are the most common damage types by far across the game, so if you have those locked down you are basically set vs 70% of any fight if not more due to how defenses work (even Psychic enemies often carry Telekinetic Blast which Smashing defense negates). 

[Seed22]

26 minutes ago, Snarky said:

26 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I messed up the quoting thing on mobile. Damn phone. Anyway, now it’s my turn to call horseshit. You must have been playing with some extraordonarily shitty builds then to be guaranteed tougher than those two. I’ve teamed with Invuln and watched them fall on my Tank and Brute, while I was not only in the green, i STILL had a nice chunk of absorb left.