"Speed Task Forces"

[Snarky]

Did A Faathim the Commuter TF last weekend hour and a half.  Did a Q last night, just under two hours.  I see times being posted to the speed TF that I find ... hard to believe.

 

I am no genius, but I ain't ignorant.  Speed TF has Faathim at 22 min and Q at 52.  Half our team was Incarnated heavy on the Q and all but one of us had TT and every other P2W trick.  Maybe with a split up team of incarnates all using fly overboost and knowing exactly where to be you could get very fast.  But just finding the mobs at the various points on the Faathim especially is a time eater.  Not to mention there are actual missions.  I am calling BS on it.  You can post that it was done in 7 minutes if you want with a screenshot and a note from Dean Winchester.  But something about the WAY it was done is different.  Beyond just knowing exactly where everything is and having everything set up and getting lucky.

 

I mentioned my puzzlement.  Someone told me you could league up a TF team and use Incarnate league summon on them....Is that possible? 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Snarky

[TheZag]

Yes you can form a league and have characters on the other teams sitting in the proper locations and use incan to teleport the league around while 1 team is doing a task force.  I know someone that commonly does it on market crash to teleport us to the train for the board transit mission

[Snarky]

Thank you TheZag, that starts to explain things a lot better.  With league mates set up at various points (and scouting for mobs) you could run a Saga of Faathim pretty quick.  and at 30 min a pop or so run a few and take the best of time.  I can see that.

 

I heap praises on people who play, and play much better than me (I love being a mediocre brute playah!) but don't try to tell me you ran the Kessel Spice run in under 7 parsecs without a little bit of evidence besides a freaking polaroid lol.  

 

I can kill a GM solo in under 30 seconds!    No one pay attention to the league of people at my back buffing me and debuffing the GM.  They arent even in camera angle, they do not count!

[Techwright]

What difficulty level are these epic times set to?

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, Techwright said:

What difficulty level are these epic times set to?

even at minimum difficulty some of these times (to me!) are seemingly impossible without outside thumb on the scale from non TF team members.  The League TP above being a possible explanation.

 

This is like posting video of yourself bench pressing 700 pounds.  ....without showing the ends of the bar being hauled up by 6 friends....

[TheZag]

An organized group could do this without a league by sending 7 into the mission while the 8th went over to where the next mission would be

[Apparition]

Just now, TheZag said:

An organized group could do this without a league by sending 7 into the mission while the 8th went over to where the next mission would be

 

Yep.  I do that a lot.

[Mr. Vee]

For the early part of HC there were records that were good times for a good team. Soon enough there were really good times from people starting to do specialized runs trying for time (e.g. what if we ran this with all blasters with a tray full of ultimate and huge red insps). Now you have to figure the times are from dedicated speed runners and are pretty much the COH equivalent of the folks who're good enough at NES games to know the exact place to take a hit in order to glitch through a platform and save half a second.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

Yep.  I do that a lot.

and you think you could do a Faathim in under 30 that way (posted time was a little over 22 min)  not trolling, honestly asking.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

Did A Faathim the Commuter TF last weekend hour and a half.  Did a Q last night, just under two hours.  I see times being posted to the speed TF that I find ... hard to believe.

 

I am no genius, but I ain't ignorant.  Speed TF has Faathim at 22 min and Q at 52.  Half our team was Incarnated heavy on the Q and all but one of us had TT and every other P2W trick.  Maybe with a split up team of incarnates all using fly overboost and knowing exactly where to be you could get very fast.  But just finding the mobs at the various points on the Faathim especially is a time eater.  Not to mention there are actual missions.  I am calling BS on it.  You can post that it was done in 7 minutes if you want with a screenshot and a note from Dean Winchester.  But something about the WAY it was done is different.  Beyond just knowing exactly where everything is and having everything set up and getting lucky.

 

I mentioned my puzzlement.  Someone told me you could league up a TF team and use Incarnate league summon on them....Is that possible? 

I've done Dr Q with 5 people in just a shade over an hour with no tricks or outside/league assistance. None of the screenshots you'll find in the Speed Task Forces thread are doctored in any way. Those times tend to come from teams that've done the content so many times they can do it in their sleep and have specific detailed strategies for exactly who does what and when.

Edited March 13, 2021 by macskull

[Snarky]

Fair enough.  complaints withdrawn.  I could never see myself doing it.  But I know the next step is to stop Bruting and start Blasting, killing things before they know you are there, everywhere lol.  I know some folks can.  Some folks can bench press 700.  Top right now is just shy of 900 pounds...  just shy of 800 without magic shirt....  that will NEVER be me either lol

[Dark Bladed]

So I wasn't on that specific Faathim TF run that's mentioned, but I do run with those same people for most speedruns. I can pretty confidently say that the run didn't use Incan from anyone that wasn't on the team. Most of us feel that its pretty cheap and wish that it could be changed, but that's neither here nor there. Looking at Faathim, there's not a whole lot to it, if everyone knows exactly what their job is. Not everyone needs to go into every mission, some might be going to a different zone for a different mission, or some might be going to a specific monument at the end. Mac is pretty spot on in a lot, but not all, of those times are ran where everyone has a specific job, and everyone knows what theirs is. Things like super red inspirations and ultimate inspirations are pretty standard with a lot of runs, as is temp powers like P2W buffs and Warburg Nukes. With the upcoming speed cap changes, it will be interesting to see if any newer speedrun times are set, as most of the people from that Faathim run you mentioned for example, are away from the game. Most, if not every run listed in that thread and on speedrun.com can be beaten with enough work.

If anyone is new or interested in speedrunning, and wants to know more about how certain things are done or why certain sets are used or not used, feel free to send me a PM, or if @Snarky is okay with it post it here. You can also reach out to me on discord (Dark Bladed#5217) or join the speedrunning discord in my signature.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Dark Bladed said:

So I wasn't on that specific Faathim TF run that's mentioned, but I do run with those same people for most speedruns. I can pretty confidently say that the run didn't use Incan from anyone that wasn't on the team. Most of us feel that its pretty cheap and wish that it could be changed, but that's neither here nor there. Looking at Faathim, there's not a whole lot to it, if everyone knows exactly what their job is. Not everyone needs to go into every mission, some might be going to a different zone for a different mission, or some might be going to a specific monument at the end. Mac is pretty spot on in a lot, but not all, of those times are ran where everyone has a specific job, and everyone knows what theirs is. Things like super red inspirations and ultimate inspirations are pretty standard with a lot of runs, as is temp powers like P2W buffs and Warburg Nukes. With the upcoming speed cap changes, it will be interesting to see if any newer speedrun times are set, as most of the people from that Faathim run you mentioned for example, are away from the game. Most, if not every run listed in that thread and on speedrun.com can be beaten with enough work.

If anyone is new or interested in speedrunning, and wants to know more about how certain things are done or why certain sets are used or not used, feel free to send me a PM, or if @Snarky is okay with it post it here. You can also reach out to me on discord (Dark Bladed#5217) or join the speedrunning discord in my signature.

Nice info.  Thank you.  Now I can start to visualize how it is done.  All the buffs, and knowing exactly where to be....still amazing work.  At least now I can wrap my head around how it is accomplished.

[Ukase]

Let me try to share an additional perspective. Veracity is an SG that I have one character in, as I happened to be in the right place at the right time, just a month or so after HC opened the doors. Right around the time Excelsior was created. In that SG, I learned a few things. I never truly "fit in", because while I appreciate a speed run, I'm not about to make a build specifically for a task force speed record. 

These players (at least then) would send their builds back and forth to each other, making minor adjustments here and there to get the most bang for their IO dollar. Before each run, they'd do the Steel Canyon Mayhem/Safeguard for the ATT temp, so each player would have the one from p2w and the short term temp power. 

Incandescence would be used when possible as well. And back then, liberal use of the old SG base macro as well. Players with slower page load times would not lead, as that would slow things down a bit. Practice runs would be made to determine if the doors for each map were the same. If they were, and the mission were in the same zone, you can bet one member would leave the prior mission early, if they entered at all, to ATT or incan the team to the next mission as soon as all had exited. 

There are more than a couple of players in my other SG on a different shard who are strangely fast. The shorter ski slope in 13 seconds? I can barely do 17 with a kin's help. Barely got 46 seconds on the long one, while these rascals destroy that time with 42 seconds, some of them even faster than that. And, on missions? They get to the mission faster, and by the time I load in, sometimes the mission completes and they're already out by the time my page loads. And I'm not on a slow system! I got the league star twice last night on our leagues RHW runs. It's just that some players are quite good at moving their characters about. They have played the game enough to know whether it's better to jump at point A, or take path B and toggle a jet pack for a couple of seconds, etc. 

So, in summary, it's partially practice and experience. The other part is painstaking attention to detail, specialized builds, quitting the tf a dozen times to ensure you get the key from the Security Chief the first time, instead of beating all of them. (LRSF) 

I believe one of them even got in trouble for avoiding cut scenes, which I guess is a no-no. Not terribly clear how you'd do that, but if we want to talk about inf sinks, I'd pay to not see Mother Mammory in BAF, and avoid Sister Psyche's crappy dialogue with Manti, and Anti-Matter's trite speech at the beginning of Keyes, too. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Ukase
clarification

[Dark Bladed]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

These players (at least then) would send their builds back and forth to each other, making minor adjustments here and there to get the most bang for their IO dollar. Before each run, they'd do the Steel Canyon Mayhem/Safeguard for the ATT temp, so each player would have the one from p2w and the short term temp power. 

Incandescence would be used when possible as well. And back then, liberal use of the old SG base macro as well. Players with slower page load times would not lead, as that would slow things down a bit. Practice runs would be made to determine if the doors for each map were the same. If they were, and the mission were in the same zone, you can bet one member would leave the prior mission early, if they entered at all, to ATT or incan the team to the next mission as soon as all had exited. 

While I've not played with the Veracity group on Torchbearer, I can say this is pretty standard for record attempt runs. We never did the Steel Canyon mayhem, as it was never needed, but making sure everyone had all the P2W buffs, Nukes, and Inspirations were key. Frost Bite from the Candy Keeper in Pocket D was also gotten almost every time, as it is an extra damage proc on all attacks for only 100 candy canes. Incan is absolutely used in any TF that allows it to be, though. Whether its to TP actual players, or just to TP your Lore pets around, pretty much everyone was running Incan.

 

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, in summary, it's partially practice and experience. The other part is painstaking attention to detail, specialized builds, quitting the tf a dozen times to ensure you get the key from the Security Chief the first time, instead of beating all of them. (LRSF) 

This is a bit extreme, but at some point it may be needed. For the Security Chief?s, the idea is for everyone to split up and each grab one, as there are 8 on the map. Really the one in the far back of the map should be left alone, and that person should run straight to the door to immediately go in as soon as the key is found, and Incan everyone to the AV. If that one security chief that you didn't kill was the one that had the key, you'd probably reset then, but that's uncommon. But things like that do need to be thought about for each individual TF; how can you split up, what can you use to make things go along quicker, what can be skipped.

 

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

I believe one of them even got in trouble for avoiding cut scenes, which I guess is a no-no. Not terribly clear how you'd do that, but if we want to talk about inf sinks, I'd pay to not see Mother Mammory in BAF, and avoid Sister Psyche's crappy dialogue with Manti, and Anti-Matter's trite speech at the beginning of Keyes, too. 

This part I'll hit on in two ways. One, I think I may know who you are talking about, and if so, I don't think it was just cutscene skipping that was the cause. I know plenty of people who have done it, many many times, and never gotten in trouble. Maybe they just got lucky, but who knows.

 

Two, there are two types of cutscenes you are mentioning here, incarnate cutscenes and normal TF cutscenes. Both of them have triggers, but they work differently. Cutscenes like the start of BAF, or Keyes, can be skipped if everyone on the league has seen the entirety of the cutscene on their respective characters. Its not an account bound trigger, so if you have a different character that's seen the cutscene, that doesn't matter. That specific character has to have seen it, along with every other character in your league. Cutscenes like the end of Dilemna Diabolique and The Underground, or before the final fight of Magisterium, can not be skipped.

Then there are the TF cutscenes, which trigger by being in a certain part of the map. Case in point, STF/MLTF. Once you get close to the first portal is when the first cutscene will trigger. Once you get close to Romulus at the end of the ITF, that cutscene will trigger. If you know where these lines are, and can think of ways to get around them, the cutscenes can be skipped. As far as I know, both Aeon cutscenes in the second mission of STF/MLTF can be skipped, and the Clamor cutscene in the last mission of Penny Yin can be skipped. Every other cutscene has the trigger area around other objectives, so there is no way to finish the mission without seeing the cutscene.

As a fun little fact, on STF/MLTF, you can skip both cutscenes and get outside, but the AVs wont spawn until after the first cutscene has been triggered.

[amagi]

I'm not a member of Veracity, but I've been on several of the WR speed runs with the members.  The 6:18 Keyes was my favorite.  We took down Anti-Matter so quickly that the game mechanic dropped a 10K mag hold on us for DPSing too quickly.  We never knew it even existed the first time it hit us.  Even if you got whacked, we found out it kept us held inside the hospital at Keyes.

 

Even on different COH servers (gasp), I worked with them, because I wanna go fast.  On another server (Tspy), there was thought that the speed teams were only good because of X, Y, or Z.  Then, we did an enhancement-suppressed ITF in 20 minutes or so.  I don't recall the exact time.  No boost from IO sets or even enhancements to damage, acc, etc.  There's a lot of skill involved that gets overlooked because the eye-opening performances makes folks naturally credit IOs or gimmicks.

 

Even though not a member, we've shared build concepts, but most of the time we practiced, practiced, practiced.  And you learn to appreciate game concepts and methods to work around obstacles.  

 

Mostly, you learn it's about the team.  My favorite playstyle is TW/Bio scrapper (proving "When in doubt, nerf something they enjoy" is alive and well as a dev philosophy).  I don't bring that to speed teams.  I bring edge-of-the-seat DPS and speed/recharge, because it's not about what I want - its what helps the team succeed.  I've developed Fire/Rad, Fire/Cold, etc corruptors just for use during one mission in speed runs - then rarely play them after.  I developed a Rad/TW tank for an eight man Hami experiment on two different servers...and they sit.  I'd rather sit out on XP/Inf from a boss defeat if it means I can sit a toon at a contact for the next talkie mission or pre-position to open a door and start the cutscene while others move into zone.

 

Also, I think you avoid AM's speech if everyone on the team already went through the trial that day.  Could be wrong.

[Dimeno]

This type of issue is exactly why no speedrun time should EVER be accepted without video evidence and a proper review. There are several members of the CoX speedrun community that blatantly abused GM commands for faster times. That's not to say that these times in question were specifically accomplished with that (I've been on a couple speedy shadow shard TFs myself), but it should've been a rule nonetheless. The ban on posting videos from HC definitely hurt the credibility of the speedrun community.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Dimeno

[Sellefane]

All of the replies explaining strats are correct. I did not see the one question you had about skipping cut scene. AFAIK skipping cutscenes is not a no-no in game or in the speed community.

 

The thing that is a no-no and the reason why the teleport to base command was changed is because a specific group of speed runners used a dev command to teleport directly into any map they wanted to. 

 

The Veractity speed team members were not ones who used this "cheat." Yes, the team members were optimized. They thoroughly researched builds, and the different TFs, Trials extensively in order to get those times. 

 

Members of Veracity were also very welcoming to teaching members of the community not only how to run speeds, but also how to run content in general. 

 

If would like to see vids of speed runs, or you need recommendations for great SGs that teach and run content on Torchbearer, you can reach out to me on Discord @Sellefane#6019 or PM me here. 

[Marshal_General]

Back during my incarnate days on live I took part in a lot of speed TFs. Some of them I still have no idea what they are about.

[Gobbledygook]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:57 PM, Snarky said:

Fair enough.  complaints withdrawn.  I could never see myself doing it.  But I know the next step is to stop Bruting and start Blasting, killing things before they know you are there, everywhere lol.  I know some folks can.  Some folks can bench press 700.  Top right now is just shy of 900 pounds...  just shy of 800 without magic shirt....  that will NEVER be me either lol

 

I prefer the raw federations myself. If you're using a bench shirt or a squat suit to break a world record, it's like saying your build can solo a GM, but you have to use full trays of the giant reds.

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

I prefer the raw federations myself. If you're using a bench shirt or a squat suit to break a world record, it's like saying your build can solo a GM, but you have to use full trays of the giant reds.

current raw is 783 pounds 😮  my best is 5 sets 5 at 212.  i have never just went for all out one press.  i am old.  something might fall off.  i am hoping to 5x5 225 this year.  but hope is eternal lol.  anything over 190 or so feels ....heavy.

 

on a gaming note i have switched over to blasters with a ice/ice i like and a dark/dark that is my new "main"

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Snarky

[kelika2]

No low damage ATs like defenders, trollers, tanks, doms, mastermind and sents.  everyone having TT/MT/ouro, +3 incarnates for everyone.  it is very doable.

I think the server record is 45 mins for Dr Q.

Be careful tho, if you start to min/max in theory itll just start a fight