For player understanding and balancing, can each AT and powerset be described with its niche?

[DougGraves]

I played GW2.  They had a lost of classes and powersets plus pools (using CoH terms).  It was hard to understand why a lot of the pools existed.  Then I learned that some things were designed for pvp and were not intended to be good for pve.  Other things were good for teaming but bad for soloing, etc.  While it was sad to learn that a set that I though would be cool to play for style reasons was going to suck for me because I don't pvp, it was nice to understand why a set I thought sucked was designed that way.

 

With so many  AT's in CoH it can be hard to tell what each is for.  Brute vs scrapper vs tanker is an obvious example. 

 

But a bigger challenge is probably figure out the powersets.  Are some good for soloing and some better for teaming?  Are some good for a different playstyle?  There is no way to make all AT's both interesting and balanced if the only thing they are designed for is aoe damage.

 

So player generated or dev generated, it would be great to have a description for each of them that both helps us select powersets that should suit what we want and determine if a powerset is actually good at what it is supposed to be good at.

[TemporalVileTerror]

"For player understanding and balancing, can each AT and powerset be described with its niche?"

Nope.

 

 

 

 . . . ok . . . that's probably a bit too irreverent of me to boil it down like that, but really . . . no.  

This game isn't built the same way as so many others.  A Force Field / Energy Blast Defender doesn't play the same as a Trick Arrow / Electrical Blast Defender, and they're both still Defenders!  HELL!  The way you build each of those Defenders can radically redefine their niche.

 

We need a more robust and nuanced lense to examine this game and balance than (ironically) the archetypal roles seen in other MMOs.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

The way you build each of those Defenders can radically redefine their niche.

 

It looks like from your response you missed the part about powerset and just read AT.

 

Why should I choose a defender FF powerset instead of a cold domination powerset?

 

Both have defense shields you can put on your allies.  Why should I choose FF and why should I choose cold domination?

 

 

[TemporalVileTerror]

There was a follow-up to that, @DougGraves.

"The way you build each of those Defenders can radically redefine their niche."

 

Cold Domination is a GREAT example of that.

You can build it with team-buffing in mind.  You can build it with enemy debuffing in mind.  You can largely ignore it and focus on your Secondary Blast Set.  You can proc it out and do some weird and wild shit!

All of these are valid ways to play the character, and the ultimate "niche" the character falls in to is subject to these wide variations.

Sure, there are members of this community which hold to a personal definition of "best" or "correct" for builds, but I think it would hardly be in the spirit of what makes City of Heroes -City of Heroes- if we tried to hold EVERYONE to those standards.

[Snarky]

I will say this, no many how many times they try to tell you Blaster is a "Ranged" character it is complete Horse S4$%!

[Greycat]

52 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

There was a follow-up to that, @DougGraves.

"The way you build each of those Defenders can radically redefine their niche."

 

Cold Domination is a GREAT example of that.

You can build it with team-buffing in mind.  You can build it with enemy debuffing in mind.  You can largely ignore it and focus on your Secondary Blast Set.  You can proc it out and do some weird and wild shit!

 

 

... and to add a twist, you can have up to three builds with very different focuses on the same *character,* not just AT or powerset. My solo FF/* build is going to have power and pool selections (and slotting) much different from my teaming build. It may have more offense and more damage put into its attacks, for instance, while the team build may have fewer attacks and have the secondary effects given more emphasis, as well as different pool selections.

[oedipus_tex]

There is a sort of balance rubric for archetypes although it isn't rigidly defined. You can generally divide the into Multiplying Force and Raw Force camps. 

 

Multiplying Force archetypes are generally:

• Defender
• Controller
• Mastermind
• Corruptor

Raw Force archetypes are generally:

• Blaster
• Brute
• Stalker
• Scrapper
• Tanker
• Dominator
• Sentinel

 

This doesn't mean no Raw Force archetype has Multiplying Force powers or vice versa, its just a general design parameter. 

 

In general, Raw Force archetypes are allowed to do things for themselves and Multiplying Force archetypes are allowed to do things for others and sometimes also themselves. Where you get into an arguable degree of brokenness is when 1) the Raw Force character no longer has a need for the Multiplying Force character (Force Field e.g.) or 2) the Multiplying Force character is so good at Raw Force in addition to being a multiplier that it obviates the Raw Force version (e.g. Gravity Control on Controllers v Dominators, certain Illusion Controllers, OG Fire/Kin builds) or 3) the Raw Force character doesn't bring enough actual raw force to justify having traded away being a multiplier (Sentinels v Corruptor/Defender).

 

You can quibble about some of these specifics, e.g. is Dominator control actually "force multiplication" (I'd argue usually no) and is tanking really a raw force mechanic (I'd argue that both ways). But just in general it's a rule that holds true about who is allowed to have what.

Edited April 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Greycat]

*Argues with O_T out of general principle.*

 

:)

[Wavicle]

This is simply MY TAKE and is definitely not authoritative in any way shape or form:


Blaster: Glass Cannon Ranged

Controller: CC Support

Defender: Support Specialist

Scrapper: Melee Generalist

Tanker: Tank Specialist

Kheldians: Ranged Tank Shapeshifter

Sentinel: Armored Ranged

Brute: Heavy Melee Tank

Stalker: Stealth Melee

Mastermind: Summoner Specialist

Dominator: CC DPS

Corruptor: Ranged Support

Arachnos: Armored Support

 

 

Important note: Unlike other games there is no required team composition. Any combination of characters can complete nearly every encounter in the game. While some archetypes/powersets may be better at Soloing than others, all archetypes can contribute successfully in team situations.

[Grindingsucks]

23 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

There is a sort of balance rubric for archetypes although it isn't rigidly defined. You can generally divide the into Multiplying Force and Raw Force camps. 

 

Multiplying Force archetypes are generally:

• Defender
• Controller
• Mastermind
• Corruptor

Raw Force archetypes are generally:

• Blaster
• Brute
• Stalker
• Scrapper
• Tanker
• Dominator
• Sentinel

 

This doesn't mean no Raw Force archetype has Multiplying Force powers or vice versa, its just a general design parameter. 

 

In general, Raw Force archetypes are allowed to do things for themselves and Multiplying Force archetypes are allowed to do things for others and sometimes also themselves. Where you get into an arguable degree of brokenness is when 1) the Raw Force character no longer has a need for the Multiplying Force character (Force Field e.g.) or 2) the Multiplying Force character is so good at Raw Force in addition to being a multiplier that it obviates the Raw Force version (e.g. Gravity Control on Controllers v Dominators, certain Illusion Controllers, OG Fire/Kin builds) or 3) the Raw Force character doesn't bring enough actual raw force to justify having traded away being a multiplier (Sentinels v Corruptor/Defender).

 

You can quibble about some of these specifics, e.g. is Dominator control actually "force multiplication" (I'd argue usually no) and is tanking really a raw force mechanic (I'd argue that both ways). But just in general it's a rule that holds true about who is allowed to have what.

 

This is broad and general, but really about the best categorization I think I've seen since I've been playing the game, and largely describes my own experiences playing the various AT's.  It's also relatively easy to grasp for the new player.

 

Of course, there is vast granularity in how each powerset plays- even the same powerset within different AT's- so a more focused categorization is needed for that.  But I think answering the question of whether you're more interested in playing a raw force character or a force multiplier is a great place for the new player to start.

[DoctorDitko]

Also, there are certain powersets which defy their archetype: Storm Defenders come to mind.

They have 1 heal power, which is really more of a breakfree+minor heal for a single teammate, and they almost never need to use it.

Everything else is sheer debuffing/crowd controlling/damaging --  albeit chaotic -- awesomeness.

 

I have to laugh when Hailstorm Warning gets an invite, and they inquire as to her healing abilities:

"Don't worry about healing. If you need healing, things have gone seriously south!"

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by DoctorDitko

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

This is simply MY TAKE and is definitely not authoritative in any way shape or form:


Blaster: Glass Cannon Ranged

 

 

 

Important note: Unlike other games there is no required team composition. Any combination of characters can complete nearly every encounter in the game. While some archetypes/powersets may be better at Soloing than others, all archetypes can contribute successfully in team situations.

It ain't ranged.  There are certain odd builds that "approach" ranged.  But they are half gimped to start.  Ranged is a very simple word.  Two syllables.  One meaning.  Blasters are glass cannons, but they are not fully ranged by design.  They are best described through the nickname "Blappers"  They have a LOT of PB and Melee ranged attacks. 

 

If you make one fully ranged there is about a 95% chance you have completely hobbled the build.  If you want to look at one outlier in the entire spectrum of Blasters and say "that one is ranged" therefore Blasters are ranged....  Just, wow.

 

So, again.  No matter how many times they say it to you, Blasters were not designed as Ranged.  Yes, i know it lets you pick "Ranged" on the character creator.  Isn't marketing a beautiful thing?  Do you always believe what people sell you?  Does that make you happy?  

[MTeague]

100% leaving AT behind, and focusing Strictly on Powersets, can we come up with something?  sure.

 

Storm Summoning:  is chaotic ragdolly goodness. It offers a solid mix of debuffs, Knockbacks,, and damage output. When soloing, Hurricane almost entirely prevents death because it savages enemy to-hit so severely.  

• is that a complete description? NO. 
• O2 boost deserves mention as a low level protector against some status protection and against Energy Drain.
• No discussion of Storm is really complete without pros/cons of KB-to-KD and FF +Rchg procs.
• Steamy Mist deserves mention as a source of stealth / team stealth, Defense, and a slotting option for several very nice unique IO's.

Kinetics:  is the Team SuperSerum.  At least at high levels. Fulcrum Shift spikes the damage output of the entire team in glorious ways, and Speed Boost, between the movement speed and the giant +Recharge and +Recovery, is always good to have around. 

• is that a complete description? NO.
• No discussion of Kinetics is complete without discussion of how it tends to lure you into melee. Fulcrum, Siphon Speed, Siphon Power, Transfusion, Transference... all want you in melee.
• As much as many players hate KB, Repel is worthy of mention as a tool to potenitally play goalie with, running around sending enemies flying away from your squishies.
• Increase Density should always be mentioned as a source of Clear Mind, and equally, should be mentioned that while all friendlies nearby get the +Energy/Smashing resists, only hte DIRECT TARGET gets the Clear Mind effect.

Where I'm going with this?

At some point any such guide is either going to be incomplete by nature, OR, is going to have to start with a TLDR:  Just Read The Damn Powers, and a link to the wiki.

Edited April 10, 2021 by MTeague

[TemporalVileTerror]

Two syllables?

How are you pronouncing "ranged," @Snarky?

[DoctorDitko]

True. Blasters can be built with just ranged attacks, but you have to skip some of the cooler powers in many sets. (Like nukes!)

 

Actually one of the brilliant aspects to CoH is the overt attempt to defy the MMO "Holy Trinity" cliche.

 

(As I was editing my many typos, MTeague made an excellent argument, so see above!)

 

Addendum: How the heck do you guys make your citations link to the proper profile, with the neat oval and all?

Edited April 10, 2021 by DoctorDitko
?

[MTeague]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So, again.  No matter how many times they say it to you, Blasters were not designed as Ranged.  Yes, i know it lets you pick "Ranged" on the character creator.  Isn't marketing a beautiful thing?  Do you always believe what people sell you?  Does that make you happy?  

I mean, Blaster Primaries are better at Ranged Damage than....pretty much anyone else. 

So in that sense, they're King of Ranged.

 

But I agree, they're not JUST ranged.  Quite a bit of their secondary trees are chock full of melee powers, and degrees of control (some soft control, some short-term hard control). And heck the primaries are worthy of discussion of debuffing or soft controls that some bring.  Where you solo and say "Get Outta My Face!" with Power Thrust / Ki Push, or whether a tanker is holding aggro for your Fire Blapper as they Fire Sword Circle down a crowd of mobs, or whether the Controller is locking mobs down helpless for your Martial Kombat blaster to bamph in with Burst of Speed / Dragon Tail, they have solid melee options as well.  Some players may 100% ignore those, but doesn't mean they're not there.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Just typing:  "@" + "DoctorDitko" = @DoctorDitko (assuming your browser and/or device supports this feature)

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Two syllables?

How are you pronouncing "ranged," @Snarky?

 

Pewpew.  It's pronounced pewpew.

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Two syllables?

How are you pronouncing "ranged," @Snarky?

lol, i grew up in Kentucky.  use your imagination.  My ex-wife was an English major.  For the first year we were together I would use a word.  She would say "you do not know what that word means." So i would spell it, define it, use it in a sentence.  She would say.  "Okay, but that is not how you say that."

 

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

lol, i grew up in Kentucky.  use your imagination.  My ex-wife was an English major.  For the first year we were together I would use a word.  She would say "you do not know what that word means." So i would spell it, define it, use it in a sentence.  She would say.  "Okay, but that is not how you say that."

 

Which is just begging for the "It's not how you say it, but it is how I say it."

Although there's something to be said for the wisdom to pick your battles.

[Wavicle]

I understand that Blasters aren't JUST ranged, of course.

And, full disclosure, I seriously considered saying "Glass Cannon" and leaving it at that.

 

That list is explicitly intended as a simplification. One of my favorite things about the game is how flexible it is and how any AT can be built to do just about anything.

[Ignatz the Insane]

I think each AT could be categorized as having a niche, but IOs blur that a bit.  For instance, as @oedipus_tex indicated, Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds, and Corruptors are clear force multipiers with teams.  But Any AT can have -resistance procs.  Also, the other ATs could take the Leadership pool for additional force multipliers.   Obviously a Defender with the Leadership pool and a -resistance proc would be the ultimate force multiplier for teams.  My brief time with Repeat Offenders really changed the way I thought about team composition and effectiveness.  Multiple force multipliers makes most content trivial.

 

Blasters have a clear edge in damage over any AT with teams.  Force multipliers magnify this exponentially.  

 

As for solo play, Scrappers and Brutes are clear winners in my experience.  This doesn't mean that other ATs can't solo even the most difficult content.  It just means that my most successful solo characters are either Scrappers or Brutes.  Successful being easiest.  (Special plug for Tankers solo-They may not be able to dish out the damage of the other melee ATs, but they can successfully solo almost anything). 

 

Caveats: I have little experience soloing Masterminds and Stalkers.  The above was simply my personal experience.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[Heraclea]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

You can generally divide the into Multiplying Force and Raw Force camps.

To me the ATs divide into two even simpler camps:

 

Has mez protection:

 

- Tanker

- Scrapper

- Brute

- Sentinel

- Arachnos soldier

- Kheldian

- Stalker

 

Sometimes has mez protection, based on level of investment with merits/inf and build stage:

 

- Blaster

- Dominator

- Mastermind (not really, but can usually diffuse single target mezzes)

 

No native mez protection:

 

- Defender

- Controller

- Corruptor

 

 

I fall fairly conatantly in the 'mez protection' camp.  Characters with mez protection avoid the single most annoying and frustrating mechanic in the game.  They are fun to play on teams and fun solo.  They are the money and merit makers that support the rest of the roster. 

 

Characters lacking mez protection are team specialists for specific purposes.   Those characters need teams to be fun to play, and are built to be useful on teams, providing things like debuffs to help the team take down difficult targets.  My poison/dark defender comes out whenever anyone wants to run the Kahn TF, for instance.  She is fun because she makes the TF much faster and easier.  Not great for soloing, IMO. 

[Ignatz the Insane]

As for powersets specifically, as you said, that is much more difficult to quantify.  With the force multipler classes, those with -regen and -resistance are better against single hard targets, while those with +defense +resistance, and -ToHit are great for large mobs.  The more I think about it, the more complicated it seems.  Other things like +recharge help against both hard targets and large mobs, but so might +defense, +resistance, and -ToHit.  

 

As for solo powersets, I've found that either hybrid defense/resistance or defense sets are the best solo.   Yet even that doesn't exclude several melee defensive sets from being premier  solo characters.  Again, IO sets blur that line.  

 

[Clave Dark 5]

My answer to the question: kind of yes, but no, depending on power sets, powers chosen, slots assigned... it's all very variable.