For player understanding and balancing, can each AT and powerset be described with its niche?

[HelBlaiz]

Proper powerset selection, synergy, and IO use can definitely help break an ATs mold, but that's more of an advanced thing. You have to understand the game in a way that would make a list like the one being discussed obsolete.

[Wavicle]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:11 PM, DougGraves said:

if players all say that Force Field having knockback is a negative not a positive, maybe the devs will change it to knockdown.

Players don't all say this, which is why KB>KD is an option not a given.

[Col. Kernel]

On 4/10/2021 at 1:09 PM, TemporalVileTerror said:

"For player understanding and balancing, can each AT and powerset be described with its niche?"

Nope.

 

I came to post exactly that. ^^^

 

Seriously, CoH broke the mold for MMOs.  The forced teaming and cookiecutter team of the idiotic trinity doesn't exist in CoH.  Sure, you still have your DPS, and Control classes, but de/buff is now meaningful, and healing far less relevant.  So pick which role looks interesting to you and play it.

 

Edit:

So since everyone else was making lists, I thought I'd post mine.

I put roles into 4 classifications, as listed above;

 

DPS

Control

De/Buff (buffing and debuffing

Healing

 

/Edit

 

As one wag put it, "The difference between playing different primaries of Scrappers is like the difference between playing squash and playing racquetball.  The difference between playing different Defender primaries is like the difference between playing hockey and playing piano."  It's these differences that make CoH almost endlessly replayable.  Or (segue from previous paragraph) pick a powerset that looks interesting to you.  Take every power in it, develop your own playstyle for it and then respect out of powers that don't mesh with that playstyle.  Then, and only then, read any guides for that powerset.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Col. Kernel
More info

[Col. Kernel]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:30 PM, Wavicle said:

Masterminds are not and never have been an aggro management class. They are a Support class.

Every class is a support class.

[Col. Kernel]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:46 PM, Wavicle said:

When I break the ATs into categories I do it likes this (keeping in mind Team Composition does not require ANY one particular class OR role, and again intentionally simplified):

Tanks:

 

Tanker

Kheldians

Brute

 

 

Support/CC:

 

Defender

Controller

Mastermind

Corruptor

Dominator

Arachnos

 

 

Pure Damage:

 

Blaster

Scrapper

Stalker

Sentinel

 

 

You're looking at this all wrong.

Tank is a control AT.  Taunt is a control.

[Col. Kernel]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:53 PM, Wavicle said:

By that measure a Blaster is aggro management because they cause high threat. The discussion is meaningless if you think of it that way.

Can the Blaster survive managing aggro?  If yes, then they are aggro management, i.e. control

 

On Live I had a Storm Def who could tank the entire ITF until the 4 AVs at the end.

[Oubliette_Red]

My personal definition for a Kin Defender on a full team is 'Mastermind'.

 

[Neiska]

@5099y_74c05 - Sorry if i am late to the MM point, but I think you may have forgotten to mention something. MMs shine in one particular instance where no other AT's can, where aggro is concerned - the number of targets you can engage at once.

 

IIRC, the "aggro cap" for tankers is 16, and everyone else its 12 (feel free to correct me if I am wrong here), but the fine print says that both pets and rechargeable pets have their own aggro tables. This means that the MM can aggro far, far more than either the tanker or brute is capable of. I do it routinely on my MM all the time.

 

So Everyone else (without pets) - 12

Tankers - 16

Ats with rechargeable pets - varies by # of pets

Masterminds - 12 (you) + 36 (3 t1 pets) + 24 (2 t2 pets) + 12 (t3 pet) = 84 possible targets engaged at a time, in total. This is several times more than even a tanker is capable of. Now, with available space, distance between spawns, and other such things this makes such a lofty number unreachable in nearly every map. But I quite regularly fight 6-8 groups at a time with my MM just fine. I would argue in fact its more beneficial to fight in this manner, at least with my setup. As it takes me roughly the same amount of time to kill 16 mobs, as it does 40. so its just more efficient to fight "en masse". As far as I can tell, not many other people play their masterminds in this way, but it is certainly possible.

 

The amusing thing though? I farm far faster with two masterminds, than i do with two brutes. But no one in their right mind is going to argue that the mastermind is the OP farming class, and yet I can clear the moon map under 5 minutes with my MM team, simply by running to the middle and engaging as many targets as possible at a time, and then picking off the stragglers when the big battle is done.

 

So with all this in mind, when it comes to how "much" an AT can handle, I would argue that the MM is more than the brute and tanker are capable of, simply due to the MM effectively bypassing the target limit.

[DougGraves]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:27 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

Damage Mitigation Support and CC can be treated as being on the same spectrum, it is helpful when exploiting Controller set synergies or discussing balance.

 

If you are saying damage mitigation and CC can be summed up together I disagree.

 

I like control powers.  I want to hold a foe and see that effect.  Reducing their damage by 50% is not as visible to me and I do not value it nearly as much.  You could say it is equally effective, but from a playstyle standpoint they are very different and not interchangeable.

[cranebump]

I feel like the archetype name sorta sums up what they do (though the villain tags might require slightly more explanation). If you're a first time player coming in, the Hero AT functions seem easily recognizable by name at a glance (Tank, Blaster, Controller, Defender, Scrapper). The Villain ATs are less easy to immediately pin down without a  bit of quick study: Brute, Corruptor, Dominator, Stalker (they aren't straight analogues of the Hero ATs). Mastermind, a Hero/Vill AT, is easily grokked at first sight (pets). Kheldians and Arachnos AT's are their own thing, altogether. You have to consult the verbiage/lore on the ATs (though, back in the day, once you played enough Blue content, you were pretty familiar with the Arachnos types well before you unlocked them).

 

Even so, you can't depend on the basic label completely. I have an AR/TA Blaster who can run somewhat like a Defender, thanks to acc debuffs, slows, immobs, stuns and KDs (all his KBs are proc'ed to KD). He'll never out-defend a Defender (no teammate buffs), but he can fill in to an extent on most teams, even when facing off against foes with high resistance to lethal/smashing. 

 

 

Still, he's very much a "ranged damage dealer," first and foremost.  So, the name covers the main thing he can do. It's not perfect, but it fits. The rest of the labels do, as well, once you school yourself a bit. I don't think it's too much to ask a new player to educate themselves on what's there, rather than haggling over how to more accurately define a general label, for a general spectrum of playstyles, in order to mitigate what can only be a small, and rather temporary amount of initial ignorance. 

[JasperStone]

I still have the original manuals.

The first line from each description:

1. Blaster - specializes in delivering massive damage at range*
2. Controller - specializes  in manipulating the actions of foes, causing them to stand immobile in battle, or controlling their movements, or even turning them into allies.
3. Defender - power focus on healing foes, increasing their buffing abilities, and decreasing foes' debuffing abilities
4. Scrapper -specializes in hand to combat. [...go to e-to-toe with enemy]
5. Tanker - the "big man" of the team combing massive defense with powerful but not exceptionally quick offensive punch.

In the early days of live you made choices that had hard limitations. As hard as Jack tried that turned out to not be the case. Case in point the *Blaster. Yes it has a BOOM stick to hit at range with massive damage.... it can then run up to you and hit you with said BOOM stick for massive damage. Blapping is perhaps the most fun I have at times.

 

There are no hard rules anymore. A scrapper can take the med pool and heal from the edges. A controller can tank. Etc. A kheldian can be squid only(range), lobster only(tank), human only, and of course all three.

 

Your hero. Your choice. Build as you wish. You have three builds to make.

[Ukase]

On 4/10/2021 at 12:43 PM, DougGraves said:

I played GW2.  They had a lost of classes and powersets plus pools (using CoH terms).  It was hard to understand why a lot of the pools existed.  Then I learned that some things were designed for pvp and were not intended to be good for pve.  Other things were good for teaming but bad for soloing, etc.  While it was sad to learn that a set that I though would be cool to play for style reasons was going to suck for me because I don't pvp, it was nice to understand why a set I thought sucked was designed that way.

 

With so many  AT's in CoH it can be hard to tell what each is for.  Brute vs scrapper vs tanker is an obvious example. 

 

But a bigger challenge is probably figure out the powersets.  Are some good for soloing and some better for teaming?  Are some good for a different playstyle?  There is no way to make all AT's both interesting and balanced if the only thing they are designed for is aoe damage.

 

So player generated or dev generated, it would be great to have a description for each of them that both helps us select powersets that should suit what we want and determine if a powerset is actually good at what it is supposed to be good at.

The thing is - what you're asking for defeats the purpose of 1000 slots. You're not supposed to have someone analyze each combo of primary and secondary for each AT to determine what you'll play. You're supposed to pick an AT based off the actual description in the creator - where the sliders show you survivability, support, damage, etc. 

While it makes no sense to me to have a petless MM, there are some that exist. Having ATs categorized would just reduce the creativity of the player. 1000 slots. Make 'em until you find that one you seek.

[oedipus_tex]

To me what distinguishes Blasters specifically is the ability to ignore the blue bar. In modern day CoX they are like a batteries. You can't even really say they have worse defenses than other archetypes, the blue bar immunity translates to being able to run armor toggles without concern. When you combine that with their self heals they are quite sturdy. I would much rather be a Blaster fighting most Archvillains than most Dominators for example.

[Doomguide2005]

     The immense variety within the power sets makes anything outside of gross generalizations almost meaningless. 

 

     Mez protection vs none.  Hello Traps

Lack of CC in melee.  Hello Dark Armor or Warmace or Ice (which utterly ignores the idea of Taunt/Aggro/Threat as a form of control).  Hello the various single target taunts scrappers as a whole can have.  CoX, it's worse than the English language for making a "rule" then turning around and creating an exception to said rule.  And that's without bringing in pools and epics.  Or set IOs.  Or the giant Incarnate elephant in the room.  Might be more important to get a new player to understand that than try to and apply broad categories to the ATs or Sets.