How useful is Provoke really?

[Arbegla]

So, the wheels in my head have been turning.. and just how useful is Provoke in the grand scheme of tankerminding? I know the idea is to have you take all the damage, and abuse bodyguard mode, but if you're already running into groups first, or locking them down quickly with other things, does provoke really benefit the overall build much?

 

I'm talking fast paced Mastermind builds, speed groups, things like that. I've been looking over my bot/traps build, and I could swap Provoke for Spirit Ward (and its amazing absorb shield toggle that is on test) which will give my bots a pretty decent buffer if they pull aggro, or mobs get out of my control. It will also allow me to save my pets so Triage Beacon can work its magic, or the Protector bots can get a heal off.

 

But it prevents me from actually having a Taunt.. And I'm not sure if that matters much in the grand scheme of things. Even against AVs/GMs, Provoke Taunt doesn't always force things to focus on me, and my pets will be incarnate softcapped for defense, plus double stacked Triage Beacon for almost Instant Healing level of regeneration. Add in the resistance auras, and the bots can take a hit or two, without me having to really think twice about it.

 

How do the aggro tables work? If my pets die, does their aggro fall onto me? Or does it just go away? I ask, because a good tactic might be to just let my pets do their thing, then the aggro table will eventually land on me (which my pets dying, and me refreshing them) and then I don't really need taunt anyways, I just need my pets to wipe and for me to refresh them. Any hard thinkers out there want to weigh in on what would be more value overall? Provoke, or Spirit Ward?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Arbegla

[The_Warpact]

I have never taken provoke, I always use either an attack or debuff to pull to me.

In fast paced teams you are literally mopping up or just providing debuff/buffs/heals.

With that being said I think its pretty ineffective unless you're a 100% solo and even then I wouldn't take it.

[Arbegla]

17 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I have never taken provoke, I always use either an attack or debuff to pull to me.

In fast paced teams you are literally mopping up or just providing debuff/buffs/heals.

With that being said I think its pretty ineffective unless you're a 100% solo and even then I wouldn't take it.

 

What about against really hard targets, like AVs/GMs and the like? I'll be honest, the last time I went without Provoke, was on Live with SOs.. and I swapped to Provoke because the bots were really squishy, but with the auras now, the pets are much more durable. I'll also have a perma-hasten build, and I think Spirit Ward will help keep the pets alive more then provoke will keep aggro off them.

 

Would you agree?

[Lazarillo]

I've got it on my Thugs/Traps "tankermind"-type character and I admit I don't use it a lot, or anything, but it's nice to have it as one tool in the arsenal.  It's most useful for pulling stuff off an Acid Mortar, or for making the enemy AI question itself when it starts thinking about running for parts unknown.  It's also handy for teams when at lower levels and/or if there's not a more "proper" tank for some of the harder targets (although when there is, I pretty much just give up tankermind-ing anyway and put the pets on aggressive).

 

So overall, I'd say it's useful, on about the level you'd want/expect from a pool power, anyway, and what can I say, it's nice to have a few power slots saved for stuff that doesn't need much in terms of Enhancements, either.

[Arbegla]

13 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

So overall, I'd say it's useful, on about the level you'd want/expect from a pool power, anyway, and what can I say, it's nice to have a few power slots saved for stuff that doesn't need much in terms of Enhancements, either.

 

Well, the build I currently run, has Provoke 4 slotted with Perfect Zinger, for some Tox/Psi resist, regeneration, and 5% recharge.

If I were to take Spirit Ward, I'd 6 slot it, and put the full Preventative Medicine set in it (the Absorb proc is currently in health in my build, but it wont actually matter where it is) so I just need to swap 1 slot around, giving up 1.5% recovery from a different set, but gaining 3.75% endurance discount on the entire build, plus far more common Lethal/Smash/Fire/Cold resistance, and some max HP (to offset the reduction in regeneration) plus 8.75% recharge.

 

I could also use Spirit Ward as a way to save squishy characters, instead of just my pets, so that could help when we don't have a proper tank. Plus I think with the upfront absorb granted by Spirit Ward, you can 'bounce' the toggle around and absorb multiple people with enough recharge.

 

I guess I do lose the Psi damage proc, in technically an AoE, but there isn't much DPS to be gained from Provoke...

Edited April 14, 2021 by Arbegla

[The_Warpact]

30 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

What about against really hard targets, like AVs/GMs and the like? I'll be honest, the last time I went without Provoke, was on Live with SOs.. and I swapped to Provoke because the bots were really squishy, but with the auras now, the pets are much more durable. I'll also have a perma-hasten build, and I think Spirit Ward will help keep the pets alive more then provoke will keep aggro off them.

 

Would you agree?

I have no experience with Spirit Ward either. In GM for example on my Demon/Cold I dont have it, I let loose with a debuff and then its on. My demon/cold is also my GM killer so I've beat plenty of them.

Even on my Necro/Storm vs Reichsman there was so much going on that it he stayed on me mostly but occasionally he'd target one of the kids but heals did fine.

If you're on a team I think all of it becomes moot.

[fitzsimmons]

I took fold space on my bot/traps, no regrets.

[Arbegla]

18 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I have no experience with Spirit Ward either. In GM for example on my Demon/Cold I dont have it, I let loose with a debuff and then its on. My demon/cold is also my GM killer so I've beat plenty of them.

Even on my Necro/Storm vs Reichsman there was so much going on that it he stayed on me mostly but occasionally he'd target one of the kids but heals did fine.

If you're on a team I think all of it becomes moot.

 

I've only played with Spirit Ward a bit on test, not on live, as I prefer the fire and forget nature of the toggle over a power I constantly have to click (its a /traps anyways, lots of fire and forget powers)

 

But its basically an upfront absorb shield that pulses, so you can slap it on something and if the incoming damage isn't that bad, the shield stays up. I imagine it'll make Triage Beacon that much better too, as the Absorb shield will take the damage, while your normal hit points are regenerating. With the +hp/+end panacea proc in Triage Beacon, I bet it'll be really nice at keeping the pets alive.

[kelika2]

5 targets max

can miss

4.2 second duration

10 second recharge

15ft radius

400% taunt

power pool + power slot + enhancement slot investment

a tank or brute, maybe even a scrapper(maybe) can overpower provokes taunt% with their aura and punchvoke

When solo, alone and fighting an AV/EB with lots of cone attacks that can mess your shit up, or caltrops/burns/rains I can see Provoke being useful for a mastermind

but most of the time, no

 

Most power pools are not meant to be super ultra strong because reasons

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

5 targets max

can miss

4.2 second duration

10 second recharge

15ft radius

400% taunt

power pool + power slot + enhancement slot investment

a tank or brute, maybe even a scrapper(maybe) can overpower provokes taunt% with their aura and punchvoke

When solo, alone and fighting an AV/EB with lots of cone attacks that can mess your shit up, or caltrops/burns/rains I can see Provoke being useful for a mastermind

but most of the time, no

 

Most power pools are not meant to be super ultra strong because reasons

 

Huh, 5 targets max, and a base 4.2 second duration. The numbers on that really isn't that great.

 

Now, for the aggro formula, what exactly does 400% Taunt do?

[kelika2]

Just now, Arbegla said:

Now, for the aggro formula, what exactly does 400% Taunt do?

I lack a proper comparison but its.. baseline?  tank/brute/scrap taunt is 400%.  aura is 400%, punchvokes probably the same.  Not seeing anything on Gauntlet/Fury or single attacks on my tank/brute attacks.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I lack a proper comparison but its.. baseline?  tank/brute/scrap taunt is 400%.  aura is 400%, punchvokes probably the same.  Not seeing anything on Gauntlet/Fury or single attacks on my tank/brute attacks.

 

I meant in the overall aspect of how you hold threat, and aggro. I looked it up on the wiki, and it told me this: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Taunt_(Status_Effect)

 

Basically, the absolute best I could do as a Mastermind, would be to run in melee, hit Provoke, then hit an AoE (like Electrifying Fences) but as I won't have very many actual attacks (/traps, things aren't really attacks so much as just more summons) it really doesn't seem useful at all for me. And as threat generation is based on proximity anyways, if I'm in melee range of the AV/GM, and able to keep them immobilized, my pets should be fine regardless.

[LlyranKeen]

The only time I've found provoke useful is when I'm playing with other people and want to draw attention away from them. It seems borderline useless to me when soloing. Something like Nemesis staff or any amount of other, normal power picks seem to work well enough.

[Sir Myshkin]

To answer your question more specifically beyond "no provoke", when you enter combat the spawn is going to separate itself against what enemies they come into line of sight with first and engage accordingly. If you or one of your pets activates a power (attack/debuff) prior to visual aggro, then their target will instantly attach aggro back onto them until (or unless) something comes along to take that aggro away. If you pet dies in combat and its engaged aggro-partner is still alive, that mob will not exactly attach to you, but will (per the AI) look for the next radial target to aggro onto, and act accordingly.

 

What enemy AI is checking for in their Aggro AI:

• Line of Sight or Perception (Depth/Distance)
• Damage
• "Debuff"
  • This could be an actual debuff that causes something like -Resistance, or a area effect like a repel from Force Bubble
• Taunt
  • As in an actual Taunt power like Taunt, Confront, Provoke

 

The AI will typically stack importance in the above order (least to greatest descending). It is possible for something to deliver enough of Damage+Debuff to override Taunt's superior trigger, it's also possible to do just straight up raw damage great enough to get the AI to skip over whatever taunted it and go after the DPS generator, so it's not a hard-line in the sand kind of thing, but the game generally sticks to this pattern.

 

If you have pets that are 45-59% defense prepped, and sufficiently backed with regenerative support, then honestly worrying about whether you're running in as a "prime tank target" is kind of wasted time and effort. Let them soak up aggro effort because those bots being at max miss percentage, with diversified shot opportunities is going to spread your options out better that if someone does get hit you'll be able to collectively recover from it better than if it all came down on you. Personally I see the "Tankermind" concept being more suited for a Resistance focused build, or one where there's less support options available for the pets but the MM itself can get relatively well suited up.

 

I'd use my Demons/ElecAff as an example. I took Provoke on that at 47, I was traveling around with it in much smaller groups and I personally felt that I just didn't have enough punch coming from the MM to keep enemies focused on me and not on the underlings, especially considering how team-focused ElecAff is, and how little it focuses on doing anything enemy-based. By grabbing Provoke and staying in bodyguard with all but the Demon Lord I was able to better coordinate their survival and keep enemies focused on me, which in turn kept the demons tighter together and closer for chains. Whether you take Provoke is really a matter of circumstance in a Mastermind build, and how that "Tankermind" philosophy is being implemented.

[Six-Six]

Here's another way of looking at it: I like taking Provoke over Pacify, then opening up the rest of Presence pool for the last three powers which are the most useful to me -- intimidate, invoke panic and Unrelenting. Since Provoke is there, I use it from time to time when one of my henchmen is getting overwhelmed and not the me overwhelming the enemy. Provoke can also take taunt IOs like Zinger and Beratement, which have some decent set bonuses. I just usually single slot intimidate with a fear proc, 2-slot Invoke panic also with a fear proc and end redux, and full set of healing IO in Unrelenting (Numi or Preventive depends on what the toon needs). 

[Coyote]

I took Provoke on a Robots/EA MM originally, it's useful for keeping mobs in the AssBot's burn patches. But then I decided I'd have more fun with Group Fly and Fold Space... Provoke would still be useful to keep Bosses from running out of the burn patches, and Robots struggles at Boss-killing, so I could see keeping it over Group Fly.

 

This is for soloing. For teaming, mobs should be controlled or Tanked in most situations, so it has a lot less use.

[Neiska]

I have tried provoke on a robot/ea, robot/time, robot/traps, and a few demons.

 

Most of the time, I really dont think I can justify the pool slot. It can miss, has a low target cap, and doesn't last overly long. And its the weakest taunt (i believe), which makes it easially over ridden by pretty much anything that wants to. Which leads to the following -

 

When solo, there really isn't much need for taunt, as I can simply stand where I want them to engage me, and force them to come to me. Long ago I gotten in the habit of standing in my own robots fire patches, which worked far better than anytime i tried provoke.

 

When on teams, even with provoke I rarely kept attention for any amount of time, and I certainly didn't outaggro tankers, brutes, scrappers, stalkers, blasters, corruptors, widows, warshades, peacebringers, etc. About the only one I could out aggro was the defender. Which makes me question the point of it.

 

I have had much better results with group fly as well as fold space, and am currently working on theorycrafting for experimental pool, namely for that vial power which i heard is fantastic for proc-slotting. 

 

Just my experience with provoke on many MMs. Yours might certainly be different.

[Arbegla]

Thank you everyone for your insight. Its good to know how different people use provoke, and that it really isn't required to tankermind at all.

 

I think having the additional mitigation of Spirit Ward, especially now with its toggle aspect, will help keep my pets alive. I also really appreciate the knowledge share on how taunt and aggro works, which explains how I can 'maintain' threat, even without using Provoke, by just spamming my attacks.

[TheSpiritFox]

The only really truly useful use for provoke is to allow sets with weaker defenses to tank hard targets like bosses on up when solo. In groups anything with a taunt overrides it, with stronger pets a significant portion of the time your pets can tank it with a good secondary. Lord recluse is about the only boss I can think of that MMs generally cannot tank without provoke. Serafina is difficult due to hurricane if you're not /elec. 

 

Its just too weak a power. If it lasted 15 seconds and hit 10 targets and such...

[Arbegla]

19 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

The only really truly useful use for provoke is to allow sets with weaker defenses to tank hard targets like bosses on up when solo. In groups anything with a taunt overrides it, with stronger pets a significant portion of the time your pets can tank it with a good secondary. Lord recluse is about the only boss I can think of that MMs generally cannot tank without provoke. Serafina is difficult due to hurricane if you're not /elec. 

 

Its just too weak a power. If it lasted 15 seconds and hit 10 targets and such...

 

My big concern is tanking hard targets solo, like EBs/AVs/GMs, etc. But even with provoke, I'm not sure I have enough true 'attacks' for provoke to actually matter overall.

 

I'll have to test it out i guess. Though the additional mitigation I'll have from Spirit Ward should offset the pets pulling more aggro on themselves.