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end cost of running multiple defensive auras needs a serious look


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at lvl 22-ish my brute has 2-3 reduced end cost in each aura and attack as well as 6 end mod in stamina and is barellllly able to maintain stamina.  that's assuming i'm not fighting things that drain endurance which happens kind of often.  end cost of protective auras needs a very heavy handed nerf.  Currently you can choose to slot nothing but endurance related mods where possible until higher level or choose to not tank as well as you could.  I don't see the same issue with any other role be it dps, heal, cc, buff, debuff etc..  So this seems like just a big oversight to me.  more options in playing would be greatly appreciated.

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Endurance problems are pretty normal for characters at your level. It sounds like a lot of your issues could be solved with a revision to your build; six slots in Stamina is definitely not optimal, for example. I’d suggest heading to the Brute archetype forum and asking for build advice from the other players, they should be able to help you sort this out.

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the following greatly help with your end drain:

 

performance shifter chance for +endurance (put this in Stamina)

panacea chance for +hitpoints/endurance (put this in Health)

recovery serum (500k for 50 charges from P2W vendor)

 

at level 50, you can start making a cardiac alpha incarnate ability, which reduces end costs globally even past the diminishing returns

 

i've really never had any problems with end drain after slotting the IO procs and making frequent use of recovery serum

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This does not sound like "get the Performance Shifter proc piece" kinds of issues.  I agree with Vanden, let folks take a look at your build in the approporiate AT forum (IIRC you said Brute).  Be as specific as possible, Mids/Pine build will be a huge help.

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six slots in Stamina is definitely not optimal, for example.

Note that six slotting stamina with DOs (not SOs or level 25 IOs) is valid and will not trigger severe ED. It's no different than 3 slotting it with SOs. Move the slots later or stick procs in there or go nuts and slot a set that has benefits you want. If you are using level 25 enhancements you should probably respec and move them if you don't have "A Plan" for the redundant slots. Slotting more than 3 of any level 25 IO or SO will result in you only getting just a couple % enhancement. Like with attack it's something like: 32->64->92->98. (Note that it's the VALUE that is the trigger for diminishing returns, not just the number of enhancements. You crack 92%, you trigger a huge nerf; for enhancements that are about 20% as SOs like defense and endmod, the cliff is 56%.)

 

That said the problem is not your auras it's your attacks. One end reducer is normal and some people get by without them. Why? They put the end reducer in their attacks.

 

I also knew someone who had crippling endurance problem and the issue was that he didn't have enough damage slotted. He literally took 3x as many attacks as he should have - high cost attacks mind you - to finish off a mob. As a brute, maintaining your fury is essential and if you're not at 50% you are actually in the situation of having less than base damage available because brutes were scaled around at least 50%. Conceivably, low fury could be the biggest contributor to your problem.

 

It's a balancing act. Incoming endurance, endurance passively spent on toggles, and endurance actively spent with click powers and attacks are all very closely connected. Trying to solve the problem by addressing it at only 1 of the three points isn't going to work - the returns diminish. Further, as noted, because you may nopt be fully enhanced with level 25 IOs / SOs (IOs are better truuuussst me) the amount of enhancement you have in your powers is not really developed yet.  So here's what you need to do:

 

- thoughtfully disable any defensive toggle you're not using. Fighting a bunch of council who are just shooting you in the face? You want your smashing/lethal protection and your knockdown protection running. Move on to Hellions? On goes the protection versus fire. Don't fight with ninja run much less it and sprint on. I goof up and leave them on all the time myself and WOW that will suck you dry.

 

- balance how you use your slots and prioritize your enhancements. Missing an attack is the biggest waste of end there is. Accuracy probably comes first. Slot your attacks with 2 accuracy DOs at teens levels and then prioritize getting 1 full value IO or SO at 22. Needing to hit them an extra time is also bad; some damage is important but put it in the attacks that it will have the most impact in first so the gain is greatest. Brutes generally have a 3 or 4 second recharge power (OR BRAWL which is totes valid) on autofire for fury building, but that attack is typically very low damage. You put end in that attack before damage, maybe even 2 if you are still struggling.  So for example if you were electric melee I'd take charged brawl and slot it accuracy, end, recharge first, and then add 1 damage every time I could spare a slot; damage procs are often better than raw damage in this type of power and you might not even put 3 damage in it.  Meanwhile in Havoc Punch I'd probably go Acc, Dam, End at first, then add more damage and recharge as needed to get my attack chain going.

 

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at lvl 22-ish my brute has 2-3 reduced end cost in each aura and attack as well as 6 end mod in stamina and is barellllly able to maintain stamina.  that's assuming i'm not fighting things that drain endurance which happens kind of often.  end cost of protective auras needs a very heavy handed nerf.  Currently you can choose to slot nothing but endurance related mods where possible until higher level or choose to not tank as well as you could.  I don't see the same issue with any other role be it dps, heal, cc, buff, debuff etc..  So this seems like just a big oversight to me.  more options in playing would be greatly appreciated.

 

It could be both how you're slotting and what you're slotting, as well as your powersets. Additional details on what you're running and/or a build may gain you additional information. Also, at level 22, you're just getting to the point in the game where you can slot Single-Origin (SO) enhancements, which are the base level of enhancement with which powers are balanced on. If you're using Dual or Training Origin Enhancements, you're only getting 1/2 or 1/4 respectively in terms of benefit per slot.

 

the following greatly help with your end drain:

 

performance shifter chance for +endurance (put this in Stamina)

panacea chance for +hitpoints/endurance (put this in Health)

recovery serum (500k for 50 charges from P2W vendor)

 

at level 50, you can start making a cardiac alpha incarnate ability, which reduces end costs globally even past the diminishing returns

 

i've really never had any problems with end drain after slotting the IO procs and making frequent use of recovery serum

 

Emphasis on your quote is mine. The game and powersets are designed and balanced around SO's, NOT IO's, temporary powers/buffs, nor incarnates. Offering these as a solution isn't actually a solution, it's applying a band-aid to a bigger problem of either improper builds or poor balance. One can be rectified by the player, and is more easily done with constructive advice, versus "wait until 50, or go play the market!"

 

There's actually a HUGE discrepancy between the different defensive sets in terms of their endurance, and I'm working on a master post/suggestion to try and rectify/bring them into alignment with each other. But, cliff notes version: unslotted, with all toggles running - defensive sets range from +0.08eps to +2.32eps passive recovery. This isn't accounting for the 8 out of 13 powersets that have either passive or click-based endurance recovery tools.

 

 

Death is the best debuff.

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soooo apparently a lot of ppl can't read so I'll quote myself "at lvl 22-ish my brute has 2-3 reduced end cost in each aura and attack".  all my enhancements are io's a few levels higher than me.  i'll look in to the chance to gain endurance enhancements asap though!  once again, nothing but someone trying to tank has such a ridiculous end cost.  I strongly feel this needs to be looked at :)

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Hey, if that was enough to diagnose the problem we'd have helped by now.

 

List of people with this much of an endurance management problem:

*You

/end_of_list

 

Don't get snippy with us for asking for the information we need to help you.

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That said the problem is not your auras it's your attacks. One end reducer is normal and some people get by without them. Why? They put the end reducer in their attacks.

 

I also knew someone who had crippling endurance problem and the issue was that he didn't have enough damage slotted. He literally took 3x as many attacks as he should have - high cost attacks mind you - to finish off a mob. As a brute, maintaining your fury is essential and if you're not at 50% you are actually in the situation of having less than base damage available because brutes were scaled around at least 50%. Conceivably, low fury could be the biggest contributor to your problem.

 

 

This x1000. I wish I could remember where on the old forums a similar discussion was where someone had run the numbers and it turned out that, strange as it might sound, slotting endurance reduction is actually worse for your endurance usage until a certain point (i.e. later when you have slots to spare that aren't committed to more important things). Your best bet is damage in the attacks with end mod in stamina and the aforementioned procs if you have space, then end reduction in attacks, then if still having problems, in your toggles (though i find all you need for defense toggles is to use the /end reduction piece of whatever set you end up putting there once you're at IO level).

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soooo apparently a lot of ppl can't read so I'll quote myself "at lvl 22-ish my brute has 2-3 reduced end cost in each aura and attack".  all my enhancements are io's a few levels higher than me.  i'll look in to the chance to gain endurance enhancements asap though!  once again, nothing but someone trying to tank has such a ridiculous end cost.  I strongly feel this needs to be looked at :)

 

1) Some of us did, and you didn't specify WHAT EndRed's you had slotted... there's 4 different generic EndRed enhancements you could slot at level 22: IO's at 32%, SO's at 23-38%, DO's at 12-19%, or TO's at 6-10%.

 

2) You also didn't specify what defensive set you are, as there are 13 different Brute secondaries, which could have 1-5 different armor toggles by level 22.

 

3) You've just started to get to the "real game", as level 22 is where you can start slotting enhancements that have been used for power balance (SO's). At this point with SO's or 25 IO's, recommend that you slot 0-1 EndRed per toggle, and 1 EndRed per attack. If you have a damaging aura, that'd pro'ly benefit from 1-2 EndRed's.

 

4) If you're bothered by the endurance use of your one character, you'd pro'ly be better served by going to the Brute forums, specifying your Primary/Secondary and asking for help. Creating your build in Pine's Hero Planner, as it is on Homecoming now, would be a HUGE help for more constructive advice.

 

5) As I also stated, you're actually not wrong that there are some armor sets with larger endurance costs than others... However, the tone and tenor of your posts suggest you're looking for changes without any numbers/knowledge/solutions offered other than "make it cheaper!" That's not gonna be very beneficial.

Death is the best debuff.

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char lvl 26, all enhancements are lvl 25 IO's, electrical/super reflexes

 

electrical

charged brawls - 1 recharge, 2 end red

thunder strike - 1 recharge, 2 end red

taunt - 1 acc, 1 empty

chain induction - 1 rech, 2 end red

 

super reflexes

focused fighting - 3 end red

focused senses - 3 end red

agile - 1 def

practiced brawler - 3 end red

dodge - 1 def

evasion - 3 end red

 

inherent

sprint - 1 end red(and i usually turn sprint off in a fight...kind of annoying)

stamina - 6 end mod

 

leadership

maneuvers - 3 end red

tactics - 3 tohit

 

flight

fly - empty

 

medicine

aid other - 1 end red

aid self - 1 empty

 

 

That's 29 endurance reductions and modifications IO's.  Which is a very very long winded way of saying, i got end stuff in all my crap and my end is awful :P

 

edit - forgot to label flight and medicine :P

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Just my thoughts here, but reducing end cost on defensive powers for low levels (or resist, you know what I mean) would be great and all, but what about end-game? While I agree that reducing the end cost of sets like dark armor would make them more usable, it would also make it VERY VERY strong in late game. A big part of this game is endurance management, no matter what class you play, and slotting to solve those issues is a big part of planning a character. Removing the need to plan for endurance management on tankier archetypes would open a whole different can of worms like needing to drop the damage output of those archetypes to make up for the additional slots that are now available to stack damage onto.

Not saying it's a bad idea, but do keep in mind that little things like this have large cascading effects that can be very difficult to predict.

Also, enhancements get stronger at higher levels. IO enhancements as lvl 22 != IO enhancements at lvl 50.

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char lvl 26, all enhancements are lvl 25 IO's, electrical/super reflexes

 

electrical

charged brawls - 1 recharge, 2 end red

thunder strike - 1 recharge, 2 end red

taunt - 1 acc, 1 empty

chain induction - 1 rech, 2 end red

 

 

THAT is the cornerstone of your problem. Everything you need to know is already detailed in my post.

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So, a rework of your build... Again, powers need to be enhanced for what they do. Acc in things that need to hit, strongest benefit for other things... Here's an example build for you to respec into, keeping most of your build choices. Leadership is rather sub-optimal on a Brute, I'd advise against it.

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 49 Magic Brute

Primary Power Set: Electrical Melee

Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes

Power Pool: Flight

Power Pool: Medicine

Power Pool: Fighting

 

Villain Profile:

Level 1: Charged Brawl -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(17)

Level 1: Focused Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(13)

Level 2: Jacobs Ladder -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(25)

Level 4: Focused Senses -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(13)

Level 6: Fly -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 8: Thunder Strike -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(23)

Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)

Level 12: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A)

Level 14: Injection -- Acc-I(A)

Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A)

Level 18: Chain Induction -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(25)

Level 20: Evasion -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21)

Level 22: Aid Self -- Heal-I(A)

Level 24: Kick -- Acc-I(A)

Level 26: Tough -- ResDam-I(A)

Level 28: [Empty]

Level 30: [Empty]

Level 32: [Empty]

Level 35: [Empty]

Level 38: [Empty]

Level 41: [Empty]

Level 44: [Empty]

Level 47: [Empty]

Level 49: [Empty]

Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Fury

Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 2: Rest -- IntRdx-I(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(3), EndMod-I(3)

------------

 

 

 

 

Death is the best debuff.

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Also, how is your difficulty set up? If you're fighting as too many heroes or too much higher level opponents your fights are going to last longer than your end recovery can sustain at level 22.

 

I slot all my toggle users with sets that give me 1 or 2% recovery. Get about 5 of those (which is the maximum) and those small bonuses on paper make a surprising QOL difference. Usually, for level 22, it only takes 2 of each set for the recovery bonus.

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char lvl 26, all enhancements are lvl 25 IO's, electrical/super reflexes

 

electrical

charged brawls - 1 recharge, 2 end red

thunder strike - 1 recharge, 2 end red

taunt - 1 acc, 1 empty

chain induction - 1 rech, 2 end red

 

super reflexes

focused fighting - 3 end red

focused senses - 3 end red

agile - 1 def

practiced brawler - 3 end red

dodge - 1 def

evasion - 3 end red

 

inherent

sprint - 1 end red(and i usually turn sprint off in a fight...kind of annoying)

stamina - 6 end mod

 

leadership

maneuvers - 3 end red

tactics - 3 tohit

 

flight

fly - empty

 

medicine

aid other - 1 end red

aid self - 1 empty

 

 

That's 29 endurance reductions and modifications IO's.  Which is a very very long winded way of saying, i got end stuff in all my crap and my end is awful :P

 

edit - forgot to label flight and medicine :P

 

Level 26 seems way too early for a Brute to invest in the Leadership pool. If you really want these, you should invest in them later. Also, these pools' end costs and effects are balanced for team powers, you should definitely not be running any of them without EndRedux and I question why you'd want them at all, besides like late game Vengeance antics.

 

You should also try to get at least one more slot in to your attacks for now, and change them up to like 1 ACC, 2 DMG, 1 EndRedux. Part of your problem, beyond the Leadership toggles, is probably that you're having to activate too many powers to kill enemies, especially since you've skipped the two highest damage attacks available to you by level 26, both of which are also AoEs.

 

Taunt only needs an ACC for PvP. At your level in PvE, just one Taunt or Recharge enhancement should be okay.

 

For now, you can probably live with converting one EndRedux in each of your SR toggles in to DEF, and Practiced Brawler is good with just 2 Recharge enhancements.

 

Stamina does not need 6 slots unless there some specific EndMod IO set you really want the 6 slot bonuses from, and even so, add those slots late-game. 2-3 slots should be more than sufficient for now.

 

You probably already know, but don't fight with Flight on. Also, consider switching to Leaping as Combat Jumping goes well with most melee +Defense sets, like SR.

 

Injection would also stack with your build better than Aid Other. You can use it on foes for -ToHit.

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electrical

charged brawls - 1 recharge, 2 end red

thunder strike - 1 recharge, 2 end red

taunt - 1 acc, 1 empty

chain induction - 1 rech, 2 end red

 

super reflexes

focused fighting - 3 end red

focused senses - 3 end red

agile - 1 def

practiced brawler - 3 end red

dodge - 1 def

evasion - 3 end red

 

Slot your attacks with Acc and End. Then as you move to six slots, add damage. Faster attacks mean more endurance spent in less time, so lose recharge for now. More accurate hits mean less wasted End.

 

3 slot your defense toggles with Def, not end.  Seriously, why is there not Def in those armors???

 

Lose the leadership pool. It's costly on end and barely does anything for you. Medicine? I guess. But if you slotted for defense in your armors you wouldn't need it.

 

3 slot stamina. Slots 4–6 are getting you maybe .2 more End/sec. They're wasted.

 

Hope that helps you going in the right direction.

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man, lot of posts to respond to lol

 

It sounds like your friend with the endurance problems was running solo.  I don't solo ever.  Let us assume that my character gets perfect accuracy and can never miss.  If my end regen can't keep up with my end loss i will lose endurance as i fight.  If the fight goes on long enough I will run out of endurance.  Let's further assume that with my now perfect accuracy I do 2x the damage I used to. That means our group fights will be a little faster.  It won't fix me losing endurance as I fight though.

 

as for the leadership toggles i'd agree with tactics however maneuvers and/or other defensive toggles are pretty mandatory if you don't want to constantly be forced to use defensive inspirations.  You can read up more on defense here https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense_Effectiveness I found this to be very helpful.

 

thanks for taking the time to suggest a build! so looking at the recharge time and end cost of what i'm using vs what your suggesting the attacks will be roughly the same cost over time but the fights would end a little sooner.  I'd still have issues with endurance though.  especially after doublling my passive end/sec from toggles.  that'd be...not good.  as for why maneuvers or other defensive toggles that link above is why :)

 

difficulty varies as I usually join someone elses group.  mobs are at least yellow, sometimes purple.  Set bonuses could def help out a little so thanks for that idea!

 

thanks for the taunt tip! and stam is 6 slotted because i slotted everything for minimum endurance drain/maximum endurance regen. I only run around with sprint atm and i toggle it off in combat

 

I didn't think about the end buff from self heal.  that's a really awesome tip ty!

 

there's not def in my defensive skills because i was running out of end.  might be able to put def instead of end red once i pickup self heal for the end boost.  we'll see :)

 

The underlying problem here is you can build top tier characters to buff, debuff, cc, heal and dps that EASILY don't run out of endurance.  But building a highly defensive tank, even with an absurd amount of end red and end mod still has end issues.  Let's say I drop tactics(which i should).  that nets me back .39/s which is pretty big.  however i still need to add 2 more defensive toggles to get my defense up where it needs to actually be in addition to switching all end reduction on defensive abilities to def boosts.  those 2 extra toggles from power pools puts me right back at the same endurance cost per second. my passive end/sec would also double.  so atm, i'm forced to be kind of half tanky?

 

I think It's doable at 50.  I was planning on getting soul mastery which has a -acc and -tohit which would then let me drop a defensive toggle or hopefully more?  plus i'll have more slots to play with. Right now though, at my level, it's awful trying to spec as a tank.

 

I don't think making a strong tank build super restrictive and almost impossible to achieve when low-mid level is ok.  It should allow for more flexability like all the other non-tank builds.  That is why my feedback on this is that they really need to look at end costs for defensive buffs.

 

 

 

 

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Have you actually looked at how much manuevers is buffing your defense compared to your other toggles? I guarantee its eating up way more end per def point. (Combat jumping would be way more effective. 

Your statement about DPS, Support, etc not having end problems... is flat out incorrect. Maybe your teammates are just using their end more effectively/conservatively. 

If you are teaming, focus on aggro contol only if you are still running low, let the damage clean up

 

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For Brutes: Super Reflexes powers give 13.86% defense and cost 0.26 end/sec. Leadership/Maneuvers gives 2.28% defense and costs 0.39 end/sec

Which one do you think is the problem?

 

There is no problem with the endurance cost for toggles in the game.

 

People are trying to help you and you're arguing from a position of ignorance.

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Have you actually looked at how much manuevers is buffing your defense compared to your other toggles? I guarantee its eating up way more end per def point. (Combat jumping would be way more effective. 

Your statement about DPS, Support, etc not having end problems... is flat out incorrect. Maybe your teammates are just using their end more effectively/conservatively. 

If you are teaming, focus on aggro contol only if you are still running low, let the damage clean up

 

I'll def check in to that! thank you!  and my statement about other classes not having much of a problem with endurance is based of myself playing those classes.  You can easily mod them to not run out of endurance.

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