Possible ways to help support classes

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

This made me think...

 

What if Tar Patch and other "Ground Target Buff/Debuff" effects were given a sort of Faraday Cage treatment? Strip the Cooldown off of it, but make each cast destroy the last one.

 

That way you can -always- put down a Tar Patch, at a cost, but -only- one at a time?

I think that would be reasonable for a subset of the powers - specifically ones (1) deemed either immediately permeable or almost right out of the box. Would not be appropriate for Oil Slick/EMP Arrows or Liquefy for example (though word on the street is Liquefy should be buffed a tad). And also (2) that do not allow stacking in current form. I.E. you obviously will not take my three Lightning Storms or Bonfires from me.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, arcane said:

I think that would be reasonable for a subset of the powers - specifically ones (1) deemed either immediately permeable or almost right out of the box. Would not be appropriate for Oil Slick/EMP Arrows or Liquefy for example (though word on the street is Liquefy should be buffed a tad). And also (2) that do not allow stacking in current form. I.E. you obviously will not take my three Lightning Storms or Bonfires from me.

Oh, I was just referring to ground target buff/debuff. Things like Distortion Field, maybe.

 

Lightning Storm and Bonfire are both Damage/Control.

 

Though that -is- a good note about Liquefy. And this could also work for Heal/Regen things like Tree of Life.

[arcane]

Yep I thought of Distortion Field too 🙂

[Luminara]

22 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

That way lies power creep.

 

Support archetypes have been strictly constrained by multiple restrictions devised to complement toggle mutual exclusivity and promote teaming (low HP, low damage, ally-only buffs, vulnerability to mez, lack of suppression on their non-damaging debuff/control toggles) since the day the game launched, and power creep is not only here, but has increased with every Issue from release to now.  Every other archetype has been buffed, improved and upgraded over the years, culminating in tankers engaging brutes in dick measuring contests, but not the support archetypes, not in the same ways the rest have.  They're still restricted to pre-creep rules and forced to play ten times as hard, because "it keeps power creep from becoming a problem".

 

Instead of kicking support archetypes in the teeth over and over again, blaming them for power creep or holding them back in a mistaken belief that doing so restrains power creep, address the power creep itself by bringing these archetypes up to a point of parity with other archetypes so we can see what's actually causing problems in the game and deal with those problems properly.  Make all non-damaging toggles suppress, rather than drop, including debuff/control toggles (if click debuff/controls like Flash Arrow and PGA aren't overpowered, then suppressed toggles wouldn't be).  Remove the ally-only flag on click buffs, or make them caster-affecting PBAoEs/AoEs.  Support archetypes aren't going to crash the servers if they can self-buff or skip a few seconds of animation time every spawn, they're still restricted by low HP, low damage scalars, low damage caps and lack of status protection comparable to other archetypes.  The game didn't collapse when toggle mutual exclusivity was abolished and tankers/scrappers received a huge buff simply by being allowed to use multiple toggle buffs simultaneously.  Nothing was ruined when blasters were given the ability to use their T1/T2 attacks while mezzed.  The world didn't end when Containment gave controllers 2x damage.  Tankers being bumped up to solid damage output and unparalleled AoE more recently hasn't destroyed anything.  None of the improvements to non-support archetypes have made the game worse.  So allowing support archetypes to move forward with the rest of the game isn't promoting power creep, it's promoting equality.

 

Power creep has been here since the game was released, it's going to be here until we're all in our graves and Co* is a footnote in gaming history, and given the massive restrictions imposed on support archetypes, it's clearly not their fault, so why don't we stop abusing them and start treating them like the valued members of the game that they're supposed to be so we can get on with the business of fixing real problems?

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

This made me think...

 

What if Tar Patch and other "Ground Target Buff/Debuff" effects were given a sort of Faraday Cage treatment? Strip the Cooldown off of it, but make each cast destroy the last one.

 

That way you can -always- put down a Tar Patch, at a cost, but -only- one at a time?

 I like this idea. Tar Patch and Freezing Rain/Sleet are basically the same, but FR does kb TOO and stays 'on' a mob even it it runs away. That said, I think Tar Patch being refreshable might be a bit too good, with no cooldown. Those are debuffs have recharges that reflect how good the debuff is (I assume).

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

This made me think...

 

What if Tar Patch and other "Ground Target Buff/Debuff" effects were given a sort of Faraday Cage treatment? Strip the Cooldown off of it, but make each cast destroy the last one.

 

That way you can -always- put down a Tar Patch, at a cost, but -only- one at a time?

Don't like this as a solution because it prevents high recharge builds stacking patches against really tough opponents like AV fights.

 

I mean if things are dying so quickly then you don't need that patch. I much prefer knowing that in an AV fight I'm layering down a decent amount of -res.

 

It seems like a solution to something which isn't a problem 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Carnifax

[arcane]

Luminara, still need support for your bizarre claims that seem to more or less amount to “every support player reporting success is either lying or stupid.” 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Support archetypes have been strictly constrained by multiple restrictions devised to complement toggle mutual exclusivity and promote teaming (low HP, low damage, ally-only buffs, vulnerability to mez, lack of suppression on their non-damaging debuff/control toggles) since the day the game launched, and power creep is not only here, but has increased with every Issue from release to now.  Every other archetype has been buffed, improved and upgraded over the years, culminating in tankers engaging brutes in dick measuring contests, but not the support archetypes, not in the same ways the rest have.  They're still restricted to pre-creep rules and forced to play ten times as hard, because "it keeps power creep from becoming a problem".

 

Instead of kicking support archetypes in the teeth over and over again, blaming them for power creep or holding them back in a mistaken belief that doing so restrains power creep, address the power creep itself by bringing these archetypes up to a point of parity with other archetypes so we can see what's actually causing problems in the game and deal with those problems properly.  Make all non-damaging toggles suppress, rather than drop, including debuff/control toggles (if click debuff/controls like Flash Arrow and PGA aren't overpowered, then suppressed toggles wouldn't be).  Remove the ally-only flag on click buffs, or make them caster-affecting PBAoEs/AoEs.  Support archetypes aren't going to crash the servers if they can self-buff or skip a few seconds of animation time every spawn, they're still restricted by low HP, low damage scalars, low damage caps and lack of status protection comparable to other archetypes.  The game didn't collapse when toggle mutual exclusivity was abolished and tankers/scrappers received a huge buff simply by being allowed to use multiple toggle buffs simultaneously.  Nothing was ruined when blasters were given the ability to use their T1/T2 attacks while mezzed.  The world didn't end when Containment gave controllers 2x damage.  Tankers being bumped up to solid damage output and unparalleled AoE more recently hasn't destroyed anything.  None of the improvements to non-support archetypes have made the game worse.  So allowing support archetypes to move forward with the rest of the game isn't promoting power creep, it's promoting equality.

 

Power creep has been here since the game was released, it's going to be here until we're all in our graves and Co* is a footnote in gaming history, and given the massive restrictions imposed on support archetypes, it's clearly not their fault, so why don't we stop abusing them and start treating them like the valued members of the game that they're supposed to be so we can get on with the business of fixing real problems?

 

I do have to agree its a bit disingenuous to point at support characters and say "POWER CREEP!"  While waving Scrappers, Stalkers, Tankers and Blasters through undeterred.  

[golstat2003]

11 hours ago, Carnifax said:

 

 

One way to make Support more useful in 45+ content would be to stop Incarnate powers working other than when you're in Incarnate content, and maybe one or two endgame TFs like Ms Lib (of course then Support will give out that their Clarion got taken away). 

 

 

This would also effectively mean I wouldn't bother with incarnate content. It's already limited enough with some powers not being available below level 45. No thanks.

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I'm not sure what else there is to say, but I did want to chime in again with WHY I made the suggestion.

 

It's 2 things really, one has been mentioned already.

 

1. Soloability. Yes, this is one of the things.

 

2. On teams the defender is usually the squishiest one there, because of the combination of low hp and, in some cases, buffs that don't effect the caster.

 

 

But I do appreciate the argument that when you Stack at least 2 support they very quickly become incredibly powerful. That is true.

 

Hell it was and is the whole point of Repeat Offenders and other such super groups that stack 8 support characters. 🙂 

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

I do have to agree its a bit disingenuous to point at support characters and say "POWER CREEP!"  While waving Scrappers, Stalkers, Tankers and Blasters through undeterred.  

 

TBH I think anyone saying power creep in that instance is trying to prevent FURTHER power creep.

 

Not that I agree with that sentiment at all. I agree more with Luminara's points, after giving it some thoughts.

 

The OPs suggestion could be tweaked a bit.

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

Luminara, still need support for your bizarre claims that seem to more or less amount to “every support player reporting success is either lying or stupid.” 

 

@arcane, still need support for your bizarre claim that I ever said that.

 

[Grindingsucks]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Support archetypes have been strictly constrained by multiple restrictions devised to complement toggle mutual exclusivity and promote teaming (low HP, low damage, ally-only buffs, vulnerability to mez, lack of suppression on their non-damaging debuff/control toggles) since the day the game launched, and power creep is not only here, but has increased with every Issue from release to now.  Every other archetype has been buffed, improved and upgraded over the years, culminating in tankers engaging brutes in dick measuring contests, but not the support archetypes, not in the same ways the rest have.  They're still restricted to pre-creep rules and forced to play ten times as hard, because "it keeps power creep from becoming a problem".

 

Instead of kicking support archetypes in the teeth over and over again, blaming them for power creep or holding them back in a mistaken belief that doing so restrains power creep, address the power creep itself by bringing these archetypes up to a point of parity with other archetypes so we can see what's actually causing problems in the game and deal with those problems properly.  Make all non-damaging toggles suppress, rather than drop, including debuff/control toggles (if click debuff/controls like Flash Arrow and PGA aren't overpowered, then suppressed toggles wouldn't be).  Remove the ally-only flag on click buffs, or make them caster-affecting PBAoEs/AoEs.  Support archetypes aren't going to crash the servers if they can self-buff or skip a few seconds of animation time every spawn, they're still restricted by low HP, low damage scalars, low damage caps and lack of status protection comparable to other archetypes.  The game didn't collapse when toggle mutual exclusivity was abolished and tankers/scrappers received a huge buff simply by being allowed to use multiple toggle buffs simultaneously.  Nothing was ruined when blasters were given the ability to use their T1/T2 attacks while mezzed.  The world didn't end when Containment gave controllers 2x damage.  Tankers being bumped up to solid damage output and unparalleled AoE more recently hasn't destroyed anything.  None of the improvements to non-support archetypes have made the game worse.  So allowing support archetypes to move forward with the rest of the game isn't promoting power creep, it's promoting equality.

 

Power creep has been here since the game was released, it's going to be here until we're all in our graves and Co* is a footnote in gaming history, and given the massive restrictions imposed on support archetypes, it's clearly not their fault, so why don't we stop abusing them and start treating them like the valued members of the game that they're supposed to be so we can get on with the business of fixing real problems?

 

You know... I do loathe power creep, but I have to concede that you've got some valid points here.  I don't know that bringing support AT's to parity would shed any light on what is causing the power creep problem, but I suppose some minor tweaks to that end, really can't break anything much more than it's already broken.

 

 

[Wavicle]

In any discussion of the support classes, it does need to be acknowledged that the changes to Snipes and Nukes were huge buffs for most Defenders and Corruptors, and of course most Controllers and all Masterminds have pets they can cast their buffs on.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Wavicle

[arcane]

11 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

 

You know... I do loathe power creep, but I have to concede that you've got some valid points here.  I don't know that bringing support AT's to parity would shed any light on what is causing the power creep problem, but I suppose some minor tweaks to that end, really can't break anything much more than it's already broken.

 

 

“It’s broken so no harm in breaking it more” is a fundamentally bad argument on principle IMO that I will never support.

[Grindingsucks]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

“It’s broken so no harm in breaking it more” is a fundamentally bad argument on principle IMO that I will never support.

 

I hear you.  And, personally, being support roles- I don't think they need the buff- although I HAVE often wished that there were some way to tag mez effects as being specific to certain power sets (or, vise-versa, actually).  Controllers, especially, I feel really ought to be protected from mez effects cause by attacks related to their primary.  Some examples:

 

Darkness controllers:  Protection from fear and hold effects generated by dark/negative nrgy based powers.

Earth controller: Protection from knockdown, hold, etc. from Earth-based powers.

Electric controller: Protection from stuns and endurance drains from electricity powers.

 

And so on.  It just never made sense to me that a someone who's schtick is controlling gravity should be as vulnerable to being immobilized/slowed/held by increased gravity, since they control gravity themselves.  Obviously, the problem may be that it's too complicated/difficult (impossible?) to tweak the code to filter mez effects by power source.  It would be a logical buff though, and not one that is too potent, imo.

 

 

Anyway, I don't main a support AT but, if I did, I can sort of understand why people that do might feel a bit disgruntled that combat ATs have been getting buffs, while they've been passed over.

 

What really NEEDS to happen is across the board nerfs to AT's, enhancement sets, incarnate powers, and so forth.  But, as I've pointed out in other topics, this is not realistic, because 1) The player base would riot and 2) It's a huge amount of work for a small development team.

 

It would be more practical to bring all AT's to parity by giving them a few relevant buffs, then boosting the enemies by adding additional difficulty levels to the notoriety dial, creating new (stronger) enemies, and implementing more difficult mission content.

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

Anyway, I don't main a support AT but, if I did, I can sort of understand why people that do might feel a bit disgruntled that combat ATs have been getting buffs, while they've been passed over.

I promise I would empathize with this if I thought it were the truth.

[PeregrineFalcon]

17 hours ago, Luminara said:

Support archetypes have been strictly constrained by multiple restrictions devised to... [snip]

Your wall of text reads like you're angry and blame me personally for all of the problems that you feel support AT's have. Just so you know, I'm not now, and have never been a game developer. I've never held your favorite AT back or prevented the devs from implementing anything.

 

I agree with you in that any quality of life improvements that can be given to support AT's should be. For instance, I loved it when my bubble defender no longer had to bubble each teammate separately. Huge improvement in fun for me but not a buff to the class.

 

Yes, I acknowledge that Blasters and Tankers have been buffed multiple times since I first started playing in Issue 6. I don't think that power creep will become a problem if support AT's are buffed, I think it's already a problem and further buffing of any AT's will only make it worse. And I think that the Repeat Offenders SG folks would disagree with your apparent assessment that support archetypes are in a bad place now.

 

You can't honestly tell me, Luminara, that support AT's haven't been buffed. Vigilance got a big rework, you yourself mentioned that Controllers were given Containment. Just yesterday, right here on Homecoming, Singularity got a pretty hefty buff. So no, I don't agree with your assertion that support AT's are "held back" (your words) and forced to play by pre-power creep rules.

 

My opinion is simple: add more challenging content to the game. Measure performance there and then buff support AT's accordingly if needed.

[Mezmera]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

In any discussion of the support classes, it does need to be acknowledged that the changes to Snipes and Nukes were huge buffs for most Defenders and Corruptors, and of course most Controllers and all Masterminds have pets they can cast their buffs on.

 

The snipe and nuke changes were warranted.  Snipe was never really used since most fights just happened in haste so making fast snipe available for everyone is great and being that it is only single target it's not all that overpowering making it a useful attack in your assault arsenal now. 

 

Nukes on the other hand in the iteration they are in now have ruined quite a lot.  Sure we don't want to go back to what they were before with a full endo crash but these powers weren't all that bad before, just time it right with a few blues and you're good to keep on trucking.  For the damage they do to everything in the field nukes should have a 50% endo crash and some of the recharge reduced.  I don't want the arbitrary recharge value set for you by the dev team, I'd just like the recharge raised higher so that those who like and use their nuke know to slot it with a set with recharge.  

 

Blasters have been made silly which illustrates how out of whack one squishy is above all the rest.  I was on a 7 man blaster and a dom STF the other day, that's where we're at, cool I guess.  Whoever has the blaster fetish on the dev team needs to have a hard look in the mirror.  

 

A big way to fixing things for people calling for more meaningful aggro control, team buffs and a lot of other things that hasn't had their power creep quite set in yet is to tone down those nukes and see where we stand.  

Edited April 21, 2021 by Mezmera

[Apparition]

13 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

The snipe and nuke changes were warranted.  Snipe was never really used since most fights just happened in haste so making fast snipe available for everyone is great and being that it is only single target it's not all that overpowering making it a useful attack in your assault arsenal now. 

 

Nukes on the other hand in the iteration they are in now have ruined quite a lot.  Sure we don't want to go back to what they were before with a full endo crash but these powers weren't all that bad before, just time it right with a few blues and you're good to keep on trucking.  For the damage they do to everything in the field nukes should have a 50% endo crash and some of the recharge reduced.  I don't want the arbitrary recharge value set for you by the dev team, I'd just like the recharge raised higher so that those who like and use their nuke know to slot it with a set with recharge.  

 

Blasters have been made silly which illustrates how out of whack one squishy is above all the rest.  I was on a 7 man blaster and a dom STF the other day, that's where we're at, cool I guess.  Whoever has the blaster fetish on the dev team needs to have a hard look in the mirror.  

 

A big way to fixing things for people calling for more meaningful aggro control, team buffs and a lot of other things that hasn't had their power creep quite set in yet is to tone down those nukes and see where we stand.  

 

All of the Blaster changes... raising the HP cap, giving all secondaries a sustain, and crash less nukes... were done by Paragon Studios in the Issue 24 beta.  It was inherited by the secret server, and now Homecoming.  None of it was done by any current or former SCoRE or Homecoming developer.  These were all things that would have went live with Issue 24.

[Doomguide2005]

On 4/20/2021 at 10:15 AM, Carnifax said:

Some sets do, they're just old and showing their age. Empathy and Forcefield for sure. Probably Sonic and *maybe* Rad too. 

 

Doesn't have to be as extreme as the Trick Arrow changes but they do need modernisation IMO.

I'd agree some modernization might be helpful.  That said I don't want that modernization be made so as to lessen the benefit to everything prior to late and endgame content where it has often become City of Tankmages.  Empathy is still very beneficial to teams prior to level 40 or so.  The trick would be to modernize in a manner that helps in the 40+ while not diminishing the pre-40 content buff strength.  I think to a degree this true of most buffing sets and powers.  And the more the set relies on buffs the more of an issue it becomes competing with the ability to 'tankmage' through IOs and Incarnate abilities only worsen this problem.  And why Empathy and Forcefield run into their late game desirability issue, they're both very buff focused sets.

[Mezmera]

36 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

All of the Blaster changes... raising the HP cap, giving all secondaries a sustain, and crash less nukes... were done by Paragon Studios in the Issue 24 beta.  It was inherited by the secret server, and now Homecoming.  None of it was done by any current or former SCoRE or Homecoming developer.  These were all things that would have went live with Issue 24.

 

Pretty sure tactical arrow was tinkered with by Powerhouse formerly Stars unless my SCoRE server contacts have misled me.  Everything from that server was refined and stabilized to the form we have now.  At any time they could have realized the powercreep and addressed the issue at that moment, and it was the beta code so the live devs might not have integrated a lot of that change.  

Edited April 21, 2021 by Mezmera

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You can't honestly tell me, Luminara, that support AT's haven't been buffed.

 

That's not what I said.  I said they haven't been improved in the same way all of the other archetypes have been improved, by which I mean there are basic problems inherent in how support archetypes interact with the game, problems which were resolved on all of the other archetypes, and the same solutions could be given to support archetypes.  Those solutions have been categorically denied to support archetypes to date, with the reasons given (by players, never by developers) that "it would be overpowered" or "but mah power creep".

 

The buffs the support archetypes have received have never addressed the disparities between click debuffs and ally-only click buffs, between non-damaging debuff/control toggles and self-buffing toggles.  There are glaring differences which have been left untouched for the entirety of the game's life.  I'm not calling for status protection for all support archetypes, or piles of +Def/+Res, or increasing damage caps.  I'm saying that the mechanics, the functionality of powers, should be equivalent throughout the game.  Suppression for all non-damaging toggles, and the ability to use ally-only click buffs on oneself.  Basic mechanical functionality that support archetypes have been denied, and shouldn't be, because of all of the archetypes in the game, they're the ones most in need of those mechanics.

 

I don't give a shit about damage buffs, set improvements, snipes, nukes, proc builds, hot dogs on sticks or anything else.  I'm extremely concerned about, and entirely focused on, the mechanical discrimination leveled at support archetypes and rationalized with comments about being overpowered or power creep.  Forcing support archetypes to wait out recharge times on debuff/control toggles, then go through the animations for them because they lack suppression, isn't keeping power creep under control, it's keeping the archetypes less enjoyable to play.  Restricting them from utilizing their own buffs might aid in reducing power creep, but realistically, we're right back at those shitty damage scalars and shitty HP totals and not only are they still heavily restricted in progression speed, it just doesn't make sense to say "No, you can't be safer while you're slogging through content at half the speed of other archetypes", especially when it's hypocritical in light of click debuffs.  "No, you can't be safer, unless you're playing a set with click debuffs, in which case, it's all good, dawg!" - that's the kind of bullshit that has me up in arms. The inane and completely unbalanced restrictions which are all over the place in how they're actually interacting with players, and completely non-existent for players of other archetypes.

I'm not angry with you, @PeregrineFalcon.  I'm angry with the attitude that's become prevalent regarding support archetypes, that it's okay to sweep their problems under the rug, that they should be ignored if fixing these issues might affect the game in any way, that a status quo which grew out of Cryptic's casual disregard toward support archetypes is somehow right, just or proper.  I'm angry because no-one wants to stop and consider how drastically different click debuff sets play compared to click buff or toggle sets, how much the current situation favors those click debuff sets and how easily parity could be restored with a couple of simple changes.  I'm angry because everyone defaults to "it would be overpowered" without really stopping to analyze the situation and variables and realizing that it's not true.  Ultimately, we're not just talking about archetypes, we're talking about people.  People play support archetype characters.  Human beings.  We shouldn't be blindly accepting that some of these people "need" to be kept down for the betterment of all, that some people have to suffer so everyone else can be happy, because, goddamn it, that's just wrong.  If the game can't survive without this kind of classism, it doesn't deserve to survive.

 

And as far as power creep goes, everything the HC team has been doing has been aimed at eventually addressing it.  The only reason they'd buff something like TA, or spend time rebuilding Sorcery, or nerf TW, is to create a general baseline in which all are roughly equal, so they can do whatever it is they have planned to either alleviate power creep (general buffs to critters?) or justify it (new hard mode content?).  They're not just buffing their favorites and nerfing the stuff they don't like, they have a defined plan that they're following, and they are going to do something about power creep.  That's obvious from looking at their work to date.  So everyone relax on the power creep freak-out parties, HC will deal with it.

[WitchZero]

There are a lot of little things that could improve support ATs.  Power Passes mainly.  Support are so good at what they do...at least most of them.   

 

The biggest thing is being needed.   As stated before the support class being needed for content is a pretty huge part of the equation.   Once upon a time if you were Empathy you got snatched before you could finish typing it in broadcast.   Emp and a Bubbler in the same group.  Lets go!   That's what is missing from support.   I think when  Incarnate shift happened it was moving in the right direction.  Dark Astoria and Incarnate Trials the Cap is 59% and the Mobs have +14% to hit, to low IMO.   Exploring this concept and applying it to more content might be an option.  

 

I ran a +4x8 ITF last night and my Tank never lost +Absorb.   Never once went into Green.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MTeague]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Forcing support archetypes to wait out recharge times on debuff/control toggles, then go through the animations for them because they lack suppression, isn't keeping power creep under control, it's keeping the archetypes less enjoyable to play.  Restricting them from utilizing their own buffs might aid in reducing power creep, but realistically, we're right back at those shitty damage scalars and shitty HP totals and not only are they still heavily restricted in progression speed, it just doesn't make sense to say "No, you can't be safer while you're slogging through content at half the speed of other archetypes", especially when it's hypocritical in light of click debuffs.  "No, you can't be safer, unless you're playing a set with click debuffs, in which case, it's all good, dawg!" - that's the kind of bullshit that has me up in arms. The inane and completely unbalanced restrictions which are all over the place in how they're actually interacting with players, and completely non-existent for players of other archetypes.

I'm not angry with you, @PeregrineFalcon.  I'm angry with the attitude that's become prevalent regarding support archetypes, that it's okay to sweep their problems under the rug, that they should be ignored if fixing these issues might affect the game in any way, that a status quo which grew out of Cryptic's casual disregard toward support archetypes is somehow right, just or proper.  I'm angry because no-one wants to stop and consider how drastically different click debuff sets play compared to click buff or toggle sets, how much the current situation favors those click debuff sets and how easily parity could be restored with a couple of simple changes.  

 

I'm sold. I acknowledge I used to be among the "If you let a FF bubbler use his own bubbles, you have a Status Protected / Def Capped / Slightly Weaker Blaster, that's OP."

 

But a) your arguments are pretty persuasive. 

and b) "status protected def capped slightly weaker blaster"... *thinks about it some more*  *looks at Energy/SR Sentinel*  "Huh".

Plus the FF Bubblers status protection would not be nearly as strong / cover as many types as the sentinel's armor set. 

 

Soooo okay.  I withdraw objections to buffers buffing themselves.