Please revert the Rage change.

[GM Lethe]

What he's saying, I believe, is that getting rid of the "fix" (the power system revamp) that caused rage's defense debuff to apply properly when stacking, is not an option, since it is now "baked in" to how the powers system functions, and has been for the past 5-6 years. As far as what happens from there with Rage, is of course up for iterating and testing.

[Fista]

What he's saying, I believe, is that getting rid of the "fix" (the power system revamp) that caused rage's defense debuff to apply properly when stacking, is not an option, since it is now "baked in" to how the powers system functions, and has been for the past 5-6 years. As far as what happens from there with Rage, is of course up for iterating and testing.

 

Then lets get iterating and testing.

[Widower]

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

It is again appropriate to quote the mighty Six, who knows many things. (But yeah, the bug fix is here to stay.)

[Primantis]

So they might not be as "blindly nerfing" as people seem to think.. When was this change put into place anyway? Was it put into place on the private SCORE servers or sometime after HC's launch?

 

As far as I can tell, the fix was very early on SCORE - probably six years ago.

 

 

Thank you for the clarification!

[Nixeras]

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

It is again appropriate to quote the mighty Six, who knows many things. (But yeah, the bug fix is here to stay.)

 

While I understand the bugfix was necessary and is here to stay, I don't understand any reason we'd need to replace a grossly inappropriate downside with anything else instead of just removing it. It was skippable pre-bug fix despite live devs fixing the skippable damage crash to be unskippable. It stayed that way till end of days and though I don't know what else the bug fix fixed I'm honestly of the opinion it should have stayed that way if it was possible. Now that it is fixed though, and since we know it won't be reverted I think the -def crash should simply be removed. As it is now it vastly gimps SS to the point that most players that use to play it will actively avoid it. There are several "dead" characters since their concepts are no longer viable. Super Strength/Shields is a very good example. Or Super Strength/Super Reflexes, etc. There's absolutely no reason to have such a limiting debuff attached to a core gameplay mechanic of such an iconic power set.

 

The way it is right now restricts something I know is important to everyone that plays and runs this game, player choice.

[ShardWarrior]

It is again appropriate to quote the mighty Six, who knows many things. (But yeah, the bug fix is here to stay.)

 

If by "bug fix" you mean "totally useless, horrible design choice that ruins the Super Strength set for defense based characters" then yes, I would agree.

 

There are any number of directions this could have been taken -

 

• Make it non-stackable
  
• Increase the recharge length so it cannot be made perma
  
• Covert it into a Build-Up click
  
• Etc. Etc.
  

 

The -DEF debuff totally destroys using SS with defense based sets.  Instead of adding more choice and customization (eg. fun), this change is taking choices away in my opinion.  Not worth the time investment to level a SS character using Shields or SR or whatever defense based set, grinding for IOs, Incarnates powers and such when the set includes a nonsensical debuff that essentially guts all of that effort.

 

Sorry, but no thank you.

 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

The way it is right now restricts something I know is important to everyone that plays and runs this game, player choice.

 

TBH the more I read about this, the more I believe that was exactly the intent - to ruin SS the same way they (meaning the Castle/original devs - not HC folk) did Regen.

[DSorrow]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

This appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I would ask people to keep it in mind - the fix isn't going away, so how can Rage/SS as a whole be made better, in your opinion?

 

I'd primarily look at the -Def in Rage crash being made resistible. Currently it has a disproportionate effect on Defense based sets that could normally resist -Def thrown at them. If the -Def can be removed totally, I'd go for a global Endurance cost increase (reverse of Energize, basically) so that the increased damage/hit chance comes at a cost and still keep the -End/-DMG parts of the crash. Stacking Rage would severely increase the Endurance cost of everything you do which should be a pretty good opportunity cost to keep things in check.

 

SS might need a slight base damage increase to offset the lack of perma Rage from lvl 18, though.

[Mantidae]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

This appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I would ask people to keep it in mind - the fix isn't going away, so how can Rage/SS as a whole be made better, in your opinion?

 

I'd primarily look at the -Def in Rage crash being made resistible. Currently it has a disproportionate effect on Defense based sets that could normally resist -Def thrown at them. If the -Def can be removed totally, I'd go for a global Endurance cost increase (reverse of Energize, basically) so that the increased damage/hit chance comes at a cost and still keep the -End/-DMG parts of the crash. Stacking Rage would severely increase the Endurance cost of everything you do which should be a pretty good opportunity cost to keep things in check.

 

SS might need a slight base damage increase to offset the lack of perma Rage from lvl 18, though.

 

 

This is an interesting idea on paper but it's still an excessive nerf to a power that doesn't need one.  This would make a full tray of blue pez mandatory instead of purple.

[SwitchFade]

I think it may be easier to figure out if we have one point clarified...

 

Devs, we know the bug fix is a done deal, and that's good. The bug fix caused the Rage fix. Ok.

 

Now, the question is, can rage be changed to remove the -def, separate from the bug fix? As in, this can be done to rage without affecting the bug fix?

 

If it is possible to get clarity in this it would help, as we would no longer discuss it if not possible.

 

If it is possible, we can then propose solutions.

[HelenCarnate]

The bug fix only caused the debuff to always happen. Removing the debuff should cause no issues with that bug fix.

[Rylas]

I think it may be easier to figure out if we have one point clarified...

 

Devs, we know the bug fix is a done deal, and that's good. The bug fix caused the Rage fix. Ok.

 

Now, the question is, can rage be changed to remove the -def, separate from the bug fix? As in, this can be done to rage without affecting the bug fix?

 

If it is possible to get clarity in this it would help, as we would no longer discuss it if not possible.

 

If it is possible, we can then propose solutions.

 

These questions have already been addressed early on in the thread. Here:

 

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

And here:

 

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

I'm going to follow the "Keep it simple, stupid" philosophy on this one. Just replace -DEF with a self-damage. No rewriting the book. No tweaking 100 things. Just one little change. It affects defense and resist sets equally, and if you're double or triple stacking then you better be paying attention.

[JusticeEagle]

I think it may be easier to figure out if we have one point clarified...

 

Devs, we know the bug fix is a done deal, and that's good. The bug fix caused the Rage fix. Ok.

 

Now, the question is, can rage be changed to remove the -def, separate from the bug fix? As in, this can be done to rage without affecting the bug fix?

 

If it is possible to get clarity in this it would help, as we would no longer discuss it if not possible.

 

If it is possible, we can then propose solutions.

 

These questions have already been addressed early on in the thread.

 

This actually has not been specifically addressed. Both quotes you put in were still fairly ambiguous. We need a clear cut yes or no on this, because, as others have said, the def crash can be removed without rolling back the bug fix.

 

I'm going to follow the "Keep it simple, stupid" philosophy on this one. Just replace -DEF with a self-damage. No rewriting the book. No tweaking 100 things. Just one little change. It affects defense and resist sets equally, and if you're double or triple stacking then you better be paying attention.

 

And no, this would not be a good solution, as is has the exact same problems with breaking the set the def penalty has, which is to make it impossible to really use rage while tanking, for the damage set that is only available to tanking classes. Castle left the Def crash bypassable, on purpose, because in order for SS to be on par with other melee sets, you need to be able to use Rage constantly.  Anything that makes so you can't do that makes SS underperform compared to other sets.

 

Just removing the def crash would be the best solution, as Rage would essentially function as it did on live. The Dmg and End crashes are more than enough downside, because even with perma-rage SS becomes a solid set, but it's by no means the best. Without it, it's severly broken.

[Vindicator]

Maybe it's time to make Rage a toggle.  Then remove the damage and defense debuff since you won't be able to stack Rage anymore.

 

Making Rage a toggle would also allow you to put Hasten or another power on auto instead of Rage.

 

And just to reiterate, the damage debuff should NEVER exist.  At no point in time should anyone with "Super Strength" be hitting for SINGLE DIGIT NUMBERS outside of a starting zone.  The damage debuff is a liability to yourself, your teammates, and a disgrace to the powerset name.

[arcanaville]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

This appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I would ask people to keep it in mind - the fix isn't going away, so how can Rage/SS as a whole be made better, in your opinion?

 

A little clarification on this would be helpful. So as others have pointed out, the Def crash can be completely removed without affecting the bug fix, restoring SS to where it was on live for all intents and purposes. So are you saying that just the bug fix won't be rolled back, but getting rid of the Def crash is a viable option, or that the Def crash is staying, and you want other solutions completely?

 

Just to jump in here, a couple things are worth pointing out, although these things all point in different directions.

 

1.  Removing the crash doesn't actually return the set to I23 live, because the crash was unavoidable in the non-perma case.  It is important to note that the devs didn't balance the sets for the top end of performance, and like it or not perma-Rage was top tier performance most players were almost certainly not achieving.  I think this is important to keep in mind.

 

2.  Conversely, the devs had been slowly moving away from "crashes" of a serious nature.  What qualified as a serious crash was and is subjective, but I believe the philosophy of the devs was moving in a direction of not needing to pay for powers like this with crashes, but instead in other ways.  That shift in thinking doesn't necessarily mean they were going to jump and remove all crashes from all powers everywhere immediately.  But I think if the game had continued on they would have been more willing to negotiate on something like the Rage crash.  Just IMO.

 

3.  Making the -DEF crash resistable is nice in theory but problematic in practice.  My recollection of the numerical analysis I did on the Rage crash in combination with my defense set mega spreadsheet suggested that this would end up going all over the place.  Like if I recall correctly tanker SR was going to ignore this completely while tanker Shield defense was not going to be happy.  And ironically both with and counter to point #1 above, this was going to do interesting things to high end invention builds.

 

 

So what would I have done with this?  Glad you asked.  I was working on an idea before shutdown to replace the Rage crash with an anti-crash.  This is going to sound completely bananas, and I didn't have all the details worked out (like how to justify it - this will become obvious soon enough).  But basically, I would replace the -DEF crash with a buff.  Sort off.  The crash would reduce damage by -1000000000% - like enough to put you to the floor no matter how many defenders are on your team.  But it would *also* grant +Rech and +Endred.  Basically, you go faster, you spend less end, but your damage goes to almost nothing.

 

This would help early tankers by allowing them to tank better: their clicky defenses get stronger by getting faster, and they can use powers like AoE to keep tagging spawns with enough damage to keep aggro.  But they would also have a little bit of that "exhaustion" associated with Rage running out.  They kind of become "pure" tankers for a few seconds, hitting everything and grabbing aggro with all of their attacks, and their defenses get a boost.

 

Here's the catch.  You only get this benefit if Rage actually shuts down.  If you make Rage perma, you *don't* get these benefits.  Furthermore, you can't activate Rage during this crash, you either go perma and lose these benefits, or you accept the crash and must ride out the low damage period without Rage, even if you have enough recharge to activate it.

 

So how do I justify such a change, from a crash to a buff?  Well, as many have mentioned, in the high performance arena perma Rage already existed on live and this would not change that behavior.  But in the low end, it would actually increase SS performance substantially, at least defensively.  The question is did SS need a low level buff.  I thought it did, and that's where my work ended - I didn't get to trying to prove that.

 

But bottom line: instead of Rage having a defensive crash that people tried to avoid by making it perma, this new version of Rage would contain a gameplay choice: avoid the "crash" and get perma-Rage, or accept the crash and temporarily gain significant defensive benefits and aggro control but also losing the ability to deal a lot of damage.  That seemed to be a reasonable tanker-like trade.  This new Rage might need to be tweaked down slightly in terms of its overall +DMG/+ToHit, of course.

 

I am pretty far out of the loop in gameplay for Tankers having not touched them since shutdown, but as this was something I was actually thinking about before shutdown (since -DEF was in my wheel house) I thought I would throw this out there.

[kelly Rocket]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

This appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I would ask people to keep it in mind - the fix isn't going away, so how can Rage/SS as a whole be made better, in your opinion?

 

A little clarification on this would be helpful. So as others have pointed out, the Def crash can be completely removed without affecting the bug fix, restoring SS to where it was on live for all intents and purposes. So are you saying that just the bug fix won't be rolled back, but getting rid of the Def crash is a viable option, or that the Def crash is staying, and you want other solutions completely?

 

Just to jump in here, a couple things are worth pointing out, although these things all point in different directions.

 

1.  Removing the crash doesn't actually return the set to I23 live, because the crash was unavoidable in the non-perma case.  It is important to note that the devs didn't balance the sets for the top end of performance, and like it or not perma-Rage was top tier performance most players were almost certainly not achieving.  I think this is important to keep in mind.

 

2.  Conversely, the devs had been slowly moving away from "crashes" of a serious nature.  What qualified as a serious crash was and is subjective, but I believe the philosophy of the devs was moving in a direction of not needing to pay for powers like this with crashes, but instead in other ways.  That shift in thinking doesn't necessarily mean they were going to jump and remove all crashes from all powers everywhere immediately.  But I think if the game had continued on they would have been more willing to negotiate on something like the Rage crash.  Just IMO.

 

3.  Making the -DEF crash resistable is nice in theory but problematic in practice.  My recollection of the numerical analysis I did on the Rage crash in combination with my defense set mega spreadsheet suggested that this would end up going all over the place.  Like if I recall correctly tanker SR was going to ignore this completely while tanker Shield defense was not going to be happy.  And ironically both with and counter to point #1 above, this was going to do interesting things to high end invention builds.

 

 

So what would I have done with this?  Glad you asked.  I was working on an idea before shutdown to replace the Rage crash with an anti-crash.  This is going to sound completely bananas, and I didn't have all the details worked out (like how to justify it - this will become obvious soon enough).  But basically, I would replace the -DEF crash with a buff.  Sort off.  The crash would reduce damage by -1000000000% - like enough to put you to the floor no matter how many defenders are on your team.  But it would *also* grant +Rech and +Endred.  Basically, you go faster, you spend less end, but your damage goes to almost nothing.

 

This would help early tankers by allowing them to tank better: their clicky defenses get stronger by getting faster, and they can use powers like AoE to keep tagging spawns with enough damage to keep aggro.  But they would also have a little bit of that "exhaustion" associated with Rage running out.  They kind of become "pure" tankers for a few seconds, hitting everything and grabbing aggro with all of their attacks, and their defenses get a boost.

 

Here's the catch.  You only get this benefit if Rage actually shuts down.  If you make Rage perma, you *don't* get these benefits.  Furthermore, you can't activate Rage during this crash, you either go perma and lose these benefits, or you accept the crash and must ride out the low damage period without Rage, even if you have enough recharge to activate it.

 

So how do I justify such a change, from a crash to a buff?  Well, as many have mentioned, in the high performance arena perma Rage already existed on live and this would not change that behavior.  But in the low end, it would actually increase SS performance substantially, at least defensively.  The question is did SS need a low level buff.  I thought it did, and that's where my work ended - I didn't get to trying to prove that.

 

But bottom line: instead of Rage having a defensive crash that people tried to avoid by making it perma, this new version of Rage would contain a gameplay choice: avoid the "crash" and get perma-Rage, or accept the crash and temporarily gain significant defensive benefits and aggro control but also losing the ability to deal a lot of damage.  That seemed to be a reasonable tanker-like trade.  This new Rage might need to be tweaked down slightly in terms of its overall +DMG/+ToHit, of course.

 

I am pretty far out of the loop in gameplay for Tankers having not touched them since shutdown, but as this was something I was actually thinking about before shutdown (since -DEF was in my wheel house) I thought I would throw this out there.

 

I quite like this idea. It would also help Brutes out with Fury generation during the crash.

[WindDemon21]

This definitely 100% needs fixed. Especially on builds that need to be able to avoid the damage in melee, Rage should definitely not have that -defense crash. I'd argue that the damage debuff is already far too much. It already has a high end crash, and it's on a set that has no aoe damage until tier 9 (which honesty they need to swap KB and FS respectively). For a set that also is only smashing damage, there is no way Rage should be the way it is now and should be returned to it's previous state, at the very least ditching the defense debuff crash.

[Placta]

1.  Removing the crash doesn't actually return the set to I23 live, because the crash was unavoidable in the non-perma case.  It is important to note that the devs didn't balance the sets for the top end of performance, and like it or not perma-Rage was top tier performance most players were almost certainly not achieving.

 

Perma-Rage, including the cast time, takes 102% recharge, and Rage takes recharge enhancements, so it's really 7% assuming three SOs. That makes perma-Rage an obvious, easy, and (depending on the paired mitigation set) important build goal. Was it really that top-tier?

 

Edited to correct math.

[MalphiteMeIRL]

If for whatever reason the -20 def is super baked into Rage preventing it from being removed. (Truthfully I have no idea how CoH is coded but I've heard it's a mess)

 

Other options would be reducing the defense debuff to 0, or adding a +20% defense buff during the crash to negate the debuff. Both would let it mimic how it was on live, without interfering with any bugfixes.

[Hyperstrike]

Going to repost this from the a duplicate thread.

 

1: If you're going to skip Rage because of the Defense crash, just pick another set entirely.  SS without it is a visually interesting, and completely "meh" set without it.  "Cutting your nose off to spite your face."

 

2: Build for better Defenses and Resists so the crash doesn't hit you as hard.

 

3: Build for better Recharge so you can have Rage Double-stacked and doing max damage, killing your enemies off fastest and thus not caring about the crash when it comes because your foes are naught but gross stains on the walls and floor.

 

I know, I'm like a broken record around here, urging people to take paths other than gerrymandering the game for maximum powergaming.

But Dark Watcher's droopy buttocks people!  The game's been back what?  A MONTH?

 

Maybe think about getting back into the groove before suggesting "Everything should change"?

 

 

 

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear.

[HelenCarnate]

Going to repost this from the a duplicate thread.

 

1: If you're going to skip Rage because of the Defense crash, just pick another set entirely.  SS without it is a visually interesting, and completely "meh" set without it.  "Cutting your nose off to spite your face."

 

2: Build for better Defenses and Resists so the crash doesn't hit you as hard.

 

3: Build for better Recharge so you can have Rage Double-stacked and doing max damage, killing your enemies off fastest and thus not caring about the crash when it comes because your foes are naught but gross stains on the walls and floor.

 

I know, I'm like a broken record around here, urging people to take paths other than gerrymandering the game for maximum powergaming.

But Dark Watcher's droopy buttocks people!  The game's been back what?  A MONTH?

 

Maybe think about getting back into the groove before suggesting "Everything should change"?

 

 

 

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear.

 

The game is not balanced around IO sets (speaking of a broken record) so thinking people should have to invest in IO sets just so they don't die while using a signature power while playing a defense based set is a bit unreasonable.  The defense debuff never made it to live as it was still being tested when the plug got pulled. All that we are wanting is for the set to play the same way it did when the game was live.

[summers]

Some of the hardest things for people to do is to resist putting 'their mark' on things.

 

Super Strength is perhaps the iconic superhero set and the people that enjoy it like it the way it is. Any change to the set should be very critically reviewed as to whether it needs this change or whether someone just wants to tweak it to suit their own vision.

 

I'm all in favour of dropping -defence (why does it even need this?) but I am not in favour of widespread changes to a set just because you can. Small adjustments here or there? Okay. Powerset redefining changes? No.

 

Full disclosure: SS if my main and I do not want any significant changes.

[Ghost49X]

How about this for a fix:

[*]Rage is a toggle

[*]The endurance cost/upkeep for rage keeps increasing the longer it's maintained.

[*]Rage crash is still a thing, it happens when either it's turned off manually or when the character runs out of endurance.

[*]Recharge lowers the rage crash duration.

 

This way you can slot for buff, endurance discount or recharge. Would you rather rage harder, longer or be less winded at the end? I'd also see an IO that influences the rest of your team with your rage. Sharing some of the buff (and crash) with team mates.

[Nixeras]

I'd also see an IO that influences the rest of your team with your rage. Sharing some of the buff (and crash) with team mates.

 

I don't really like your proposed changes, but more to the point an IO that is specifically for one power in the entire game would be very out of place. Not to mention that's not what rage is supposed to do. Super Strength isn't a support set. The hulk never got so mad that he made his friends stronger. That's not how that works.

[Xaeon]

Rage not being a toggle has always been weird to me. It seems like a far more elegant solution to making it a long term power than all the headaches that come with making it build up but also super long and also with a crash.  No more stacking, no more need for a crash, just a heavy demand in endurance. 

 

Besides, getting madder and madder and getting stronger from it is already what Fury does for Brutes. It was always weird to me that SS brutes had two powers that essentially represented the same thing (Incredible Hulk esque constantly escalating upwards strength from being a n g e r y) and it seems unnecessary to me. 

 

As for tankers well; "the madder I get, the stronger I get" isn't what the tanker AT is thematically supposed to be anyway. You're superman or the mighty thor as a tanker; not the Incredible Hulk or Godzilla. 

 

Super-strength IMHO though, needs a more thorough rebalancing than just adjusting rage. The issue with SS is that it is not a very good set and is held up almost entirely by Rage and Footstomp and is otherwise energy melee levels of terrible. 

 

Jab? Probably the worst T1 melee attack in the entire game.

 

Punch? Also kind of bad.

 

Haymaker? Only really something to use while KO blow and Footstomp are recharging.

 

Handclap? Actual trash unless you have a KD proc enhancement on it for a tanktroller build (and even then still bad on brutes). 

 

Hurl? It's both a terrible ST power and a terrible ranged power by its DPA. 

 

KO Blow is decent at least. 

 

No set should need its build-up to be functional, and SS' absolute need for multi-stacking rage to remain competetive (and even then Titan Weapons, Electric Melee and StJ are its superiors; especially Titan Weapons which is just better than Superstrength can ever be straight out of the box) is the core of its problem as a set.

 

Super Strength is: Very lacking in worthwhile secondary effects, completely built around the very frequently and heavily resisted damage type of strength, utterly lacking in AoE, and has atrocious DPA without multi-stacking its build up equivalent. That doesn't sound like a good set to me, it sounds like a set that's needed retuning for years but was passed over because Rage and Foot Stomp were the cement holding the proverbial broken vase together.  Now with the rage crash working as intended what has been kind of known for years is now plain is day; Superstrength is an old and kind of terrible set that relied on a bug and a PBAoE that is perhaps the biggest outlier of its kind when it comes to recharge speed to hold it out of the same pit of mediocrity that post nerf Energy Melee has sat in for years.

 

I think people would be more accepting of rage being fixed to work as intended or being changed into a toggle or whatever if SS wasn't so ridiculously dependent on it as a crutch. So I propose looking at SS as a whole.

 

Jab definitely needs something else going for it. It sucks right now. Punch is also bland and forgettable. The two could proc knockdown or knock up, being hit by a superstrong person should probably throw you off your feet after all.

 

Haymaker is a power whose animation makes it seem like it should definitely proc knockdown, and maybe even have a minor AoE that does minor to moderate damage to enemies close to it. Making it basically a cone AoE. Handclap I think should be reworked to be more like flare on PBs, it should do at least some damage instead of doing literally nothing but KB/KD. Not a huge amount since footstomp is the big PBAoE of the set, but at least some so it's less of an instant hardpass power, maybe also having a chance to proc disorient or -resistance (the former because of your ear drums and thus sense of orientation screwed with by a giant shockwave, the latter because it's ultimately a sonic attack.) Hurl almost definitely needs to have some AoE to not be well...garbage if it wants to have an animation time as long as it's got. 

 

All of the attacks in general would deal at least, a small amount of AoE damage from the shockwave of your super strong fists hitting things; usually not the full damage of the hit, but at least some, with perhaps small chances of proccing disorient or KD as the shockwaves flatten them.  When you K.O blow someone, people are going to hear it from the Jersey Turnpike, it's not just that guy you just smacked into the stratosphere whose ears are going to be ringing from the impact.

 

The damage numbers should also generally be tuned upwards so that SS can be more satisfied with just one instance of an 80% damage boost and *not* need to multi-stack rage to feel like the damage they're doing has even remotely the same worth as a Titan Weapon/Electric Melee/Street Justice user who isn't literally asleep at the keyboard.

 

This rework of SS would give it a new identity as an AoE focused set, and that makes sense because people like the Hulk, Godzilla, Superman and so on are kinda famous for doing stuff like this when they punch people without holding back.

 

 

That'd make it feel like super strength, where your musculature is so great your punches shatter windows miles away. Moving SS over into being an AoE set would also let Energy Melee be able to shine as its own thing more without feeling like "ghetto superstrength with dayglo pom-poms."