Fixing Melee Regeneration set

[Koopak]

I will say I think the topic has well since moved more toward AT discussion than suggestions. Fact of the matter is that there isn't going to be a clear consensus of exactly WHAT to add or not to add to Regen amongst the community.

Thus my main real suggestion to the devs regarding this, is that regen is not in dire straits but if you feel the need to give it a bump, be sure to take a gentle hand and very gradual small changes like some, myself included, have suggested. I suspect the devs already know though how easy it would be to accidentally tip regen over from maybe a little under tuned, to unstoppable monster. Its just the nature of how a sustain based set like this works, the balance has to be knifes edge.

[Haijinx]

Often when discussing a set with some problems, someone proposes making a copy of the set with a couple changes, under a new name, while also keeping the current set.

 

That's what we got with Regen.  

 

So if you want the fixed version, play Willpower.

[MTeague]

15 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So if you want the fixed version, play Willpower.

I understand there are a lot of people who feel that way.

but I tell you, I have a lot more fun playing my /Regen stalker than my /Willpower scrapper. 

 

Honestly, the /regen Stalker feels a lot more durable.  No small part of that is he KEEPS his sustain, the entire time, even as mobs die around him, where the scrapper starts to have issues if I kill too many mobs with AE attacks before the Big Bad (Staff/WP, scrapper is an AE beast) and I don't have enough mobs for RttC to spike the scrappers hp/s enough. 

[Monos King]

38 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So if you want the fixed version, play Willpower.

People say that about willpower and bio because they have higher regeneration values, but frankly it's not true. 

 

The experience of those powers is just completely different. Bio less so than WP, but ultimately...they play nothing alike. Different functions, different design goals, different results both in idealized possibility in actual application. They are better regeneration sets in terms of the City of Heroes specific attribute, but not at all in terms of regeneration the thematic power. Also both are only superior regeneration sets surrounded by enemies,  otherwise they share no real commonality besides minor traits like +res and +max end. 

[UberGuy]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

People say that about willpower and bio because they have higher regeneration values, but frankly it's not true. 

 

It's what I tell people because of how so many of them propose to fix Regen - the most common, most fundamental ask is to restore toggle IH. In a nutshell, that's Willpower, though you do have to go stand in a bunch of foes to get the full benefit of old IH. But people who ask for toggle IH want Regen to be much less reactive, much less clicky, and that describes Willpower quite closely.

 

That's not I want the actual Regen powerset to play like, though. I like how it plays right now, broadly, and want any improvements to preserve it as much as feasible.

 

While there are a bunch of tweaks we could make to the set, IMO there's no version of meaningfully moving the needle of Regen's performance relative to other sets that isn't going to involve adding either defense or more resistance (my preference for several reasons) to the set. I believe that can be done at modest levels and still preserve the set's clicky, reactive playstyle, while taking some of the sharp edge off of damage taken, giving the set a taste of that non-linear time-to-survival while still leaning heavily into the theme of needing clicks to restore lost health.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I understand there are a lot of people who feel that way.

but I tell you, I have a lot more fun playing my /Regen stalker than my /Willpower scrapper. 

 

Honestly, the /regen Stalker feels a lot more durable.  No small part of that is he KEEPS his sustain, the entire time, even as mobs die around him, where the scrapper starts to have issues if I kill too many mobs with AE attacks before the Big Bad (Staff/WP, scrapper is an AE beast) and I don't have enough mobs for RttC to spike the scrappers hp/s enough. 

Regen is still available too

[WindDemon21]

6 hours ago, UberGuy said:

I also posted in those other threads about how +absorb is a horrible idea as replacement for either +maxHP or +regen. It's fine, in terms of buffing the set to add it to existing +maxHP and regen (though it's maybe hard to explain lorewise), but Absorb is inferior to +maxHP and +regen for reasons mentioned already in this thread. And many people seem to fail to grasp that +absorb is still functionally HP, HP replacement/gain is a linear offset to DPS, and Regen's challenges relative to other sets are due to the fact that Defense and DR are nonlinear. The more you have, the longer you live against a given DPS in a 1/(1-mitigation) way. Absorb does not to provide that kind of survival, and no HP recovery rates the devs would ever give us ever will.

The absorb in reconstruction, wouldn't be touching the max hp, or the regen in other powers.

[Koopak]

7 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

The absorb in reconstruction, wouldn't be touching the max hp, or the regen in other powers.

I'd argue that theres not a huge difference between Recon and a toggle with a good chunk of regen on it besides the cost of player skill to use optimally... but...

Edited April 30, 2021 by Koopak

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

People say that about willpower and bio because they have higher regeneration values, but frankly it's not true. 

 

The experience of those powers is just completely different. Bio less so than WP, but ultimately...they play nothing alike. Different functions, different design goals, different results both in idealized possibility in actual application. They are better regeneration sets in terms of the City of Heroes specific attribute, but not at all in terms of regeneration the thematic power. Also both are only superior regeneration sets surrounded by enemies,  otherwise they share no real commonality besides minor traits like +res and +max end. 

It also has to do with concept.  People that expect a "Wolverine regeneration" set should play Willpower.

 

To explain, in the comic books and media, while it's often depicted as "wow he was just hurt but now he doesn't have a scratch at all", the prospect of time still has a place in the concept.  But really, you're not going to be able to make a set purely regeneration without giving it the opportunity to trivialize most encounters unless mitigation also helps facilitate that "over time" recovery.  Willpower, mechanically, functions almost exactly like the media/comic book regen because it scales its regen by situation and it looks like it's mostly healing over time because it also lessens the incoming damage to be more manageable by said scaling regen (he also has a measure of damage resistance thanks to that skeleton of his).

 

Regeneration (the set), has never functioned like that unless you assume there is some span of panels between the time you get hit and the time you heal it is somehow traversed instantaneously by the power Reconstruction and Dull Pain.  Otherwise, it's not really regeneration from an injury but rather injury negation and making the injury disappear or revert oneself to a previous state.  It's like Tom the cat getting smashed by a piano, visibly showing his crushed body and missing teeth but then instantly being back to normal in almost the very next action he takes.

 

Not saying you have to make a cartoon character if you're playing Regen, just saying part of the concept is actually *getting hurt*, illustrated by your decreased HP and then recovering it instantly.  For the "grow your skin back over time", you need def and/or resistance to give your regen time to conceptualize that (i.e. Willpower).  

[Haijinx]

Lets get real, it was the fact they made Willpower yellow.  

 

[RogerWilco]

I have just got my first character ever to level 50 on my own.

It's a Street Justice/Regen Brute, and I have found it a lot of fun to play over the last year.

But my opinion isn't based on years of experience.

 

I like having to manage the active clicks. I sometimes wished I got a little more time to react, especially if you have something else queued up first.

 

I struggle most with big alpha attacks at the start of a combat, either because I jump into a group, or a boss with a big opener.

 

Regen has a strong "you're fine, oh now you're (almost) dead" mechanic, but that's inherent to the mathematics. Regen gives you a certain fixed level of sustain, and anything above that will just kill you. Your "armor" does not scale with the number of attacks you receive, while for defence/resist it does. Those will mitigate more damage, if more damage is comes in, while Regen always mitigates the same amount of damage. Not even the active player mechanics really change that fundamental mathematical issue.

 

More than other armor sets, I need to manage how much damage is coming in, as my mitigation does not scale. I think those mathematics are impossible to balance between armor sets. I think it is for players to build around it, like having abilities that slow, known down, disorient, etc.

 

Regen is never going to be as balanced as a defence or resistance based armor. It just doesn't have enough mechanics that scale with incoming damage/number of attackers. But as long as it is fun, and people are playing it, then I don't think it needs much work.

Edited May 18, 2021 by RogerWilco

[BrandX]

On 4/30/2021 at 12:44 PM, MTeague said:

I understand there are a lot of people who feel that way.

but I tell you, I have a lot more fun playing my /Regen stalker than my /Willpower scrapper. 

 

Honestly, the /regen Stalker feels a lot more durable.  No small part of that is he KEEPS his sustain, the entire time, even as mobs die around him, where the scrapper starts to have issues if I kill too many mobs with AE attacks before the Big Bad (Staff/WP, scrapper is an AE beast) and I don't have enough mobs for RttC to spike the scrappers hp/s enough. 

 

I feel this is likely due to how you have your scrapper slotted.

 

I want Regen improved a bit myself, but having played an IOed out WP Scrapper, it can be built to be extremely durable.

[Galaxy Brain]

1) Shadow Meld / other X factors can be used by non-regen sets, so while yes they can improve regen significantly they can also significantly bolster other armors to where they are all on sorta the same comparison again. WP and Bio can also take Shadow Meld, etc. Related, but outside factors buffing you up (inspirations, allies) goes very far out of the realm of balance past a certain point as it is not controllable / past X point you dont even need the powerset to defend you with so many buffs.

 

2) Regen as it is set up has the classic dilemma of being invincible until it isn't. 100hps = -100dps. 99dps will NEVER threaten you, but 101 WILL kill you (eventually). We cannot buff the sustain of regen to cover extreme situations, but we can make it's current tools more crafty to be used in "oh crap" scenarios / more reliable.

[Replacement]

20 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

I have just got my first character ever to level 50 on my own.

It's a Street Justice/Regen Brute, and I have found it a lot of fun to play over the last year.

But my opinion isn't based on years of experience.

 

I like having to manage the active clicks. I sometimes wished I got a little more time to react, especially if you have something else queued up first.

 

I struggle most with big alpha attacks at the start of a combat, either because I jump into a group, or a boss with a big opener.

 

Regen has a strong "you're fine, oh now you're (almost) dead" mechanic, but that's inherent to the mathematics. Regen gives you a certain fixed level of sustain, and anything above that will just kill you. Your "armor" does not scale with the number of attacks you receive, while for defence/resist it does. Those will mitigate more damage, if more damage is comes in, while Regen always mitigates the same amount of damage. Not even the active player mechanics really change that fundamental mathematical issue.

 

More than other armor sets, I need to manage how much damage is coming in, as my mitigation does not scale. I think those mathematics are impossible to balance between armor sets. I think it is for players to build around it, like having abilities that slow, known down, disorient, etc.

 

Regen is never going to be as balanced as a defence or resistance based armor. It just doesn't have enough mechanics that scale with incoming damage/number of attackers. But as long as it is fun, and people are playing it, then I don't think it needs much work.

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't say that's reason not to try to at least close the gap. 

 

Some simple ones:

• Lower activation delays on heals (moves the heal to the front of the animation)
• Add slow resist and probably some more resist for -Regen
• Move Resilience earlier

I think those wouldn't be too controversial, right? Makes it more playable, more enjoyable to actually level, but doesn't add a lot of theoretical survival.

 

From there, I still think the set is lacking in breadth of playability. Here's my personal thoughts but I'm sure everyone would go a different direction:

• Combine some of the autos (note that bio Inexhaustible has about the power of 3 Regen autos)
• Add something with a mild offensive boost (which almost every armor set has something for. It could just be called Build Up Again)
• Instant healing needs work.  Personally, I hate it as a toggle. But 650 second cooldown for an effect that will only maybe be needed because it's a regeneration effect creates an unreasonably obtuse usability issue - you can almost never be sure you needed it.  I've mentioned before I would personally be interested in having it auto-rez you while active, but a very simple reduction in duration and cooldown would be fine.
• Scaling Regeneration as health decreases, or similar "sliding scale" mechanics, can help alleviate that binary I'm invincible/I'm dead issue.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Replacement

[America's Angel]

I would advise against changes to the game that can be solved with a tutorial. Regen is fine. If players don't like the reactive nature of it, they can play Willpower.

 

That said, if you're looking to tweak things, then I suggest:

• Adding [more/some] -recovery, -end, -recharge, and -regen resist.
• Have the heals activate at the start of the animation.
• Cut the MoG animation in half.
• Have the MoG Animation Time Before Effect the same duration as the Animation Time.
• Have MoG and Resilience give resist to all.

I get that minor tweaks aren't sexy/exciting to dream up and implement. But there's no real need for anything beyond this.

 

The only power it's safe to really play with is Revive. Maybe doing something like giving it a 0s recharge, removing the 15s untouchable, and having it restore lost toggles, and have it remove a deaths-worth of XP debt could be the way to go? It would suit, thematically. (Revive is a big part of Wolverine's HPS chain.) And I like the idea that regen does not experience death the same way the other armor sets do. It would reward the "knife's edge" playstyle by making death less of a burden.

Edited May 19, 2021 by America's Angel

[Galaxy Brain]

Agreed on Revive needing... something. At least other revive powers have the benefit of WUMBO damage or control, or at the very least you come back with a boost, things that simply a wakie cannot replace.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[aethereal]

I think that the big issue facing Regen is that it doesn't scale well, being too thresholded.

 

Like, say you're a Defense or Resist-based character who mitigates 70% of damage that comes at you.  You're facing 100 dps.  You take 30 dps.

 

Okay, now you're a Regen character who heals about 70 hp/s (averaging out your click-heals).  You're facing 100 dps.  You take 30 dps.  So far, so good.

 

Now along comes an enemy group who does 120dps (20% more damage).

 

The defense and resist characters take 36 dps, 20% more than they otherwise would.

 

The regen character takes 50 dps, 67% more than they otherwise would.  Ooof.

 

Some amount of this is unavoidable and flavorful, but I think it's too extreme right now (especially if we don't just assume that table-stakes for regen is building to soft-cap defense).  There should be some amount of scaling to damage taken.  Willpower and Bio do this by having heals/regen that scale to number of opponents, so it'd be nice if we could avoid the exact same mechanic for regen, but I'm not sure that any other real technology is available to make it happen functionally.  Some ideas:

 

1.  Have regen that scales to your current health (so more regen the lower health you have).  This is doable, but I think tends to be a pretty subtle effect and given that regen's current weakness is alpha, it's not going to help a lot with alpha.

 

2.  Maybe if you use Reconstruction when you're below 50% health (or whatever), it instantly comes off cooldown once?  Second time, regular cooldown, similar tech to burst of speed or combat teleport?

 

3.  Maybe an aura that gives you healing based on class of enemy near you?  Like, less if there are minions, more if there are lts, more if there are bosses, more if there are EBs/AVs/GMs?

[Leo_G]

To the points about Regen scaling: do we not, as players, have nearly full control of damage scaling? Or does that no longer matter?

 

In the cases of teaming, buffs that mitigate damage no longer matter?

 

In the cases of soloing: we do have this wonderful feature called power customization. If Regen is not within your liking, why not use those standard self mitigation sets?

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Agreed on Revive needing... something. At least other revive powers have the benefit of WUMBO damage or control, or at the very least you come back with a boost, things that simply a wakie cannot replace.

 

Damage boost

[Galaxy Brain]

25 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Damage boost

That's Willpower 😛 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

To the points about Regen scaling: do we not, as players, have nearly full control of damage scaling? Or does that no longer matter?

 

In the cases of teaming, buffs that mitigate damage no longer matter?

 

In the cases of soloing: we do have this wonderful feature called power customization. If Regen is not within your liking, why not use those standard self mitigation sets?

 

I don't get what you mean by player control over damage scaling, unless you mean difficulty options but that is a different thing.

 

Buffs that mitigate damage for you are an outside X factor that all sets can enjoy, its not a uniquely Regen thing. Sure, it may help Regen more comparatively but in total a more mitigative set + buffs would generally fare better.

 

The last point here is basically saying "don't play regen" 😞

 

 

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Okay, now you're a Regen character who heals about 70 hp/s (averaging out your click-heals).  You're facing 100 dps.  You take 30 dps.  So far, so good.

They're actually taking 100dps, but they are regenerating some of that back. The big issue is they don't have much in the way of stacking mitigation. Where at a point, more healing and regen become superfluous, unlike defense and resistance, where getting more becomes exponentially better, rather than scaling down as regen often does. There is also the issue of how easy damage coming in can overcome your max hp if you don't have other mitigation in the form of defense/resistance, or at least in my top wish having reconstruction become absorb.

 

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

3.  Maybe an aura that gives you healing based on class of enemy near you?  Like, less if there are minions, more if there are lts, more if there are bosses, more if there are EBs/AVs/GMs?

This kinda really sounds more just like willpower's RTTC to me, just in a little different fashion. While I would prefer recon as an absorb, and do think absorb is the main area for regen to improve without taking away from theme.

[Koopak]

On 5/18/2021 at 4:02 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

1) Shadow Meld / other X factors can be used by non-regen sets, so while yes they can improve regen significantly they can also significantly bolster other armors to where they are all on sorta the same comparison again. WP and Bio can also take Shadow Meld, etc. Related, but outside factors buffing you up (inspirations, allies) goes very far out of the realm of balance past a certain point as it is not controllable / past X point you dont even need the powerset to defend you with so many buffs.

This argument keeps coming up because i mentioned Shadow Meld essentially in passing. A big mistake in a debate thread on my part because it presented what I thought was a weak point to attack, even if that point is completely disconnected from my actual arguments.

However I thank everyone who keeps thrusting for this target so far out because its forced me to realize WHY it came to mind in the first place. The argument people are making against it is that pool and epic powers shouldn't be considered in the context of the balance of a set because everyone has access to them. I refute this argument wholesale. Different sets have different levels of SYNERGY with different out of set powers. This cannot and should not be ignored in discussions of balance, now if you want to argue that Regen shouldn't need Shadow Meld to compete with sets that don't take any pools or epics, id agree with you, and then proceed back to my original argument that is doesn't.

Regen has a unique synergy with pool and epic survival tools. Shadow Meld is nearly useless on defense sets, and while its good on resistance sets, often all it'll do is buy you 15 seconds, and then you die anyways. Regen can take those 15 seconds and easily recover most, if not all, of their hp, resetting their health and dramatically extending their lifespan while under attack from more damage than they heal. Regen's low base resistances means this is also true for resistance based survival pool powers and epics. This also applies to outside buffs, resulting in Regen receiving a greater force multiplier.

Thus I contend that Regen has a unique advantage of higher synergy with other powers and that that should not be discounted when discussing the power set's capabilities. I believe Regen could use some of the small bonuses i and others have outlined elsewhere in the thread, but its not in need of significant changes. Just a couple lines in a power define or two somewhere.

 

 

On 5/18/2021 at 4:21 PM, Replacement said:

From there, I still think the set is lacking in breadth of playability. Here's my personal thoughts but I'm sure everyone would go a different direction:

• Combine some of the autos (note that bio Inexhaustible has about the power of 3 Regen autos)
• Add something with a mild offensive boost (which almost every armor set has something for. It could just be called Build Up Again)
• Instant healing needs work.  Personally, I hate it as a toggle. But 650 second cooldown for an effect that will only maybe be needed because it's a regeneration effect creates an unreasonably obtuse usability issue - you can almost never be sure you needed it.  I've mentioned before I would personally be interested in having it auto-rez you while active, but a very simple reduction in duration and cooldown would be fine.
• Scaling Regeneration as health decreases, or similar "sliding scale" mechanics, can help alleviate that binary I'm invincible/I'm dead issue.

Mostly agree with this, but I disagree with the Instant Healing issue. This may simply be a difference from one player to the next but I find I usually either know "This is going to be nasty" from experience, and pop Instant Healing early, or I realize its getting nasty and my health is dropping fast, pop Reconstruction and maybe another defensive tool followed immediately by Instant Healing. I also find that my sub optimal recharge from enhancements and such of about 150 seconds, or 2.5 minutes to be generally fast enough. I only need IH while tanking for a group, saving a wipe, or soloing as well so again not a huge issue and the gap is easily covered by pools and incarnates. In lower level content I find that i can rely solely on using it reactively due to the fact that is is exceedingly rare for something to do enough damage to overwhelm me before I can react.

That all said, that MY experience, so it holds no more or less weight than your'se here, not exactly an objective argument one way or the other.

 

 

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Agreed on Revive needing... something. At least other revive powers have the benefit of WUMBO damage or control, or at the very least you come back with a boost, things that simply a wakie cannot replace.

I honestly don't think Revive needs anything, just being able to get back up, and have time to reactivate toggles, and fight again with 15 seconds of immunity is pretty good. However I'll be the first to second giving it a little something extra just because so many people skip it under what I consider the horribly misguided idea that any death is a failure.


 

 

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

I think that the big issue facing Regen is that it doesn't scale well, being too thresholded.

 

Like, say you're a Defense or Resist-based character who mitigates 70% of damage that comes at you.  You're facing 100 dps.  You take 30 dps.

 

Okay, now you're a Regen character who heals about 70 hp/s (averaging out your click-heals).  You're facing 100 dps.  You take 30 dps.  So far, so good.

 

Now along comes an enemy group who does 120dps (20% more damage).

 

The defense and resist characters take 36 dps, 20% more than they otherwise would.

 

The regen character takes 50 dps, 67% more than they otherwise would.  Ooof.

 

This is one those arguments that, while at least partially true, over exaggerates the issue due to simplifying the combat system to comparing just resistance to just regeneration. This would be true if Regen ONLY had regeneration, and thus 0% resistance and 0% defense. In practical terms, a regen build is likely to have 30-60% resistance, and 20-40% defense depending on pools, slotting, and so on. There is significantly more resistance and defense to be obtained from pools, epics, and enhancements than there is regeneration.

(edit: Corrected horribly incorrect math)

I find the most effective method for comparing defensive sets is to convert it all into Effective HP and Effective HP/s This is calculated by dividing your hp or hp/s by 1 minus your resistance or for defense 1 minus 0.5 plus your defense (caped at 45). In the case of both you divide by each subsequently.

HP = Health or HP/s regeneration
Def = your defense as a decimal, 25% = 0.25
Res = your resistance as a decimal, 75% = 0.75

Defense: HP / (1 - ( 0.5 + Def)
Resistance: HP / ( 1 - Res)

Complete: ( HP / (1 - ( 0.5 + Def ) ) / ( 1 - Res )

Lets take a Rad armor character with no enhancements and no pool powers. Partical Shielding will be active because its easy to perma, Ground Zero and Meltdown will not. We will compare it to Regen will Dull Pain as its again easy to perma, no MoG and both with and without IH. Then I'll do the same comparisons with both sets fully built from some not quite optimized builds I have on hand. If requested ill provide the builds as reference, since I know taking numbers of an unknown build is a bit iffy. Absorb is included in HP and Effective HP, but its 'regen' is ignored because that depends on recharge.

Radiation
HP: 1,740.59 (1,339 Base, +401.59 Absorb)
Regeneration: 19.25 hp/s

S/L Defense: 0%
S/L Resist: 22.5%

Effective HP: 4,491.84 (3,455.48 Base, +1,036.36 Absorb)

Effective Regeneration: 49.67 ehp/s

Regeneration
HP: 1,874.45
Regeneration no IH: 28.51 hp/s

Regneration with IH: 90.99 hp/s

S/L Defense: 0%
S/L Resist: 9.38%

Effective HP: 4,136.94

Effective Regeneration no IH: 62.92 ehp/s
Effective Regeneration with IH: 200.81 ehp/s

As we can see, Regen is 354.9 hp less effective hp, and either 13.25 hp/s or 151.14 hp/s more effective regeneration. You can quantify this as a -8.5% loss in Effective HP and a 26.67% or 304.28% increase in regeneration.  I can do this with other sets if desired as well, I just don't have a willpower set built out on hand, but I can resolve that with a little time.

So lets look at two builds for these sets I have on hand. For reference, both have Maneuvers and both skipped Fighting, I am not factoring in anything without a 100% uptime with the exception of the separate calculations of IH, which i do only because of that power's value to Regen. To properly reflect its effect, one would want to divide its effect out over the entire recharge time, but that's math for later. Additionally these numbers are without the influence of Incarnates, but do include the basic passive hp and end accolades. The odd absorb comes from Preventative Medicine, and odd Regen from heal IOs in Auto or Toggle powers.

Radiation
HP: 2,865.16 (1,792.46 Base, +1,072.7 Absorb)
Regeneration: 44.77 hp/s (38.2 hp/s Base, +3.23 Panacea, +3.34 Power Transfer)

S/L Defense: 25.39%
S/L Resistance: 62.46%

Effective HP: 31,012.94 (19,401.87 Base, +11,611.07 Absorb)

Effective Regeneration: 484.59 ehp/s (413.48 ehp/s Base, +34.96 Panacea, +36.15 Power Transfer)


Regeneration
HP: 2,894.17 (2,409.51 Base, +484.66 Absorb)
Regeneration no IH: 66.66 hp/s (56.75 hp/s Base, +3.23 Panacea, +6.68 Power Transfer x2)
Regeneration with IH: 167.43 hp/s (157.52 hp/s Base, +3.23 Panacea, +6.68 Power Transfer x2)

S/L Defense: 22.14%
S/L Resistance: 32.65%

Effective HP: 15,424.29 (12,841.33 Base, +2,582.96 Absorb)

Effective Regeneration no IH: 355.25 ehp/s (302.44 ehp/s Base, +17.21 Panacea, +35.6 Power Transfer x2)
Effective Regeneration with IH: 945.11 ehp/s (892.3 ehp/s Base, +17.21 Panacea, +35.6 Power Transfer x2)


So this lends some credence to OP's argument by highlighting the alpha issue Regen has always had on some level. Though, again, keep in mind this is comparing to a set (Radiation Armor) with a pretty solid Absorb power, that is available once every 45-60 seconds on a good build. This also does not factor in the potential healing from Reconstruction, or Dull Pain. which in this build equate to another 118.59 ehp/s and 24.74 ehp/s respectively. Nor does it count other survival tools that aren't permanent.

So what are these in relative terms? Well Regen has ~-50% less effective hp than Rad, and has ~-26% less effective regeneration without IH or ~+95% effective regeneration. Now both of these builds can be improved, I chose them specifically because while i didn't have minmaxed builds on hand, I had these two which had a similar amount of "fluff" jammed in for RP and had similar build goals.

I'd also like to note the Alpha advantage here is somewhat mitigated by the fact that if you drop the absorb from Particle Shielding, though not entirely, and many power sets do not have +maxhp or +absorb, but this Rad set is pretty close to resist cap, and this Regen is no where near it. This is what I am getting at when i say Regen benefits and synergies with "out of scope" buffs, like pool powers, epics, and team buffs, better than other sets by a significant margin.

Additional notes besides editing the math above: As stated earlier its very possible to push this resistance number up to 60%, and if thats done the no IH regen becomes 598.15 ehp/s, just as an example of what resistance can do

 

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

3.  Maybe an aura that gives you healing based on class of enemy near you?  Like, less if there are minions, more if there are lts, more if there are bosses, more if there are EBs/AVs/GMs?

 

I do like this idea in general for scrappers at least because it reflects their increased crit chance against bosses. Don't think its needed by any means, but solid cohesive design idea.

 

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The last point here is basically saying "don't play regen" 😞

 

To be fair, ALOT of suggestions for "how to fix regen" center around the rough argument of "I cant react fast enough!" or "I don't like clicking defense powers, I just want to hit things!" or some variant there of. Obviously I'm strawmaning, but the point stands, a common amount of the argument that regen is somehow bad is centered on it not working the way other power sets do and some players not liking that. In those cases "just don't play regen" is a valid counter point, since I, and a non zero number of others, consider it a highly enjoyable and rewarding set of mechanics to engage with.

 

None of that discredits well thought out legitament criticisms of the set in its current state obviously, but when the suggested changes are to make the set less reactive, then they are essentially calls to homogenize it with other sets, which in my opinion, would be a huge mistake. Not every power set will click with every player, I hate Willpower and other set it and forget it sets, and regen becoming more like them would make me do a big sad. If regen needs/gets buffs, I want them to enhance the reactive nature of the set, not reduce it.



TL;DR: Local nerd considering changing is name to TEDx

Edited May 19, 2021 by Koopak

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

This kinda really sounds more just like willpower's RTTC to me, just in a little different fashion. While I would prefer recon as an absorb, and do think absorb is the main area for regen to improve without taking away from theme.

 

It is similar to RTTC, but RTTC (and Bio's click heals/absorbs/regens that are dependent on number of targets) exist for a reason: they solve a real problem.

 

And the tech is limited in how many ways we can do similar things.

 

In terms of adding absorb to Regen, if you want a high-performing regen + absorb set, use bio armor.  If you want a high-performing passive regen set, use willpower.  Regeneration should have its own identity, not just edging closer to either bio or willpower.

[aethereal]

39 minutes ago, Koopak said:

This is one those arguments that, while at least partially true, over exaggerates the issue due to simplifying the combat system to comparing just resistance to just regeneration. This would be true if Regen ONLY had regeneration, and thus 0% resistance and 0% defense. In practical terms, a regen build is likely to have 30-60% resistance, and 20-40% defense depending on pools, slotting, and so on. There is significantly more resistance and defense to be obtained from pools, epics, and enhancements than there is regeneration.

 

I don't think there's a ton of daylight between our positions.  To some extent, we have to decide how much defense we want to balance around -- it is of course possible to build to softcap for S/L damage quite easily even with no defense in your actual powerset, and fairly possible to softcap at least one or two other damage types as well (though it's not like building tons of defense is costless), and complicating factors are that regeneration of course has a multiplicative mitigation when combined with resistance and defense (as do defense and resistance when combined with each other).

 

But as with everything when we talk about high-end builds, we put a spotlight on late-game level 50 play, and my view is that we should be concerned with Regeneration's ability to stand as a mitigation layer without assuming Superior sets and Incarnate powers and so forth.  However, the risk of that position is that if we make Regeneration function well with only mild defense/resist support for level 30 characters, we risk a scenario where Regen is overtuned for decked out tip-top builds.

Edited May 19, 2021 by aethereal

[Koopak]

33 minutes ago, aethereal said:

But as with everything when we talk about high-end builds, we put a spotlight on late-game level 50 play, and my view is that we should be concerned with Regeneration's ability to stand as a mitigation layer without assuming Superior sets and Incarnate powers and so forth.  However, the risk of that position is that if we make Regeneration function well with only mild defense/resist support for level 30 characters, we risk a scenario where Regen is overtuned for decked out tip-top builds.

I suppose I should do similar breakdowns at various level ranges to give us a better view regarding that but yeah, Ideally wed have sets that are mostly balanced at every point in content. I would argue that getting the balance 'just right' is more important at endgame than it is in the midlevels as long as those midlevels aren't abhorrent. Endgame is just where the majority of play is always going to occur, and the place where balance issues are most likely to become an actual problem for clearing content.

That all said, I've always felt that regen levels fine, iv leveled the slow way on a half dozen of them so far, so maybe I'm just experienced, but the only spot i tend to have a rough time with is the 12-16 gap before integration.