Mind Control: No Pet?

[oedipus_tex]

I recently had to get real honest with myself about AoE Holds and the fact that if they were APP powers and not core powers I'd find them too weak to take. That's moreso the case with Controllers than Dominators. But it's definitely part of Mind's issue, relying so much on Total Domination to fill gaps. Part of why I think Dark is so much better than Mind is the far better AoE Hold power. 

[Tater Todd]

21 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I recently had to get real honest with myself about AoE Holds and the fact that if they were APP powers and not core powers I'd find them too weak to take. That's moreso the case with Controllers than Dominators. But it's definitely part of Mind's issue, relying so much on Total Domination to fill gaps. Part of why I think Dark is so much better than Mind is the far better AoE Hold power. 

 

I agree, I often find myself skipping AOE Holds altogether even on Dominators.  From my expereience, I fair far better skipping my AOE Hold and focusing elsewhere like taking the Fighting or Leadership pool.  The defense and res from Fighting/Leadership seems to benefit me and my team more than a low accuracy hold that's on a 4 minute long timer.  Good grief.

[Mezmera]

28 minutes ago, Tater Todd said:

 

I agree, I often find myself skipping AOE Holds altogether even on Dominators.  From my expereience, I fair far better skipping my AOE Hold and focusing elsewhere like taking the Fighting or Leadership pool.  The defense and res from Fighting/Leadership seems to benefit me and my team more than a low accuracy hold that's on a 4 minute long timer.  Good grief.

 

You guys are crazy! 

 

Good builds can get that down to 2 mins or so.   It's a big instant stop all things power, gets great set bonuses since it can slot the purple set to 5 with the proc plus the pvp proc for very good aoe damage since the procs are almost sure fire plus there's the benefit of holding a large group in place along with that damage.  You could also even proc it out with all kinds of hold damage procs for a mini nuke.  Lots of wasted potential not taking your standard aoe hold.  

[Tater Todd]

49 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

You guys are crazy! 

 

Good builds can get that down to 2 mins or so.   It's a big instant stop all things power, gets great set bonuses since it can slot the purple set to 5 with the proc plus the pvp proc for very good aoe damage since the procs are almost sure fire plus there's the benefit of holding a large group in place along with that damage.  You could also even proc it out with all kinds of hold damage procs for a mini nuke.  Lots of wasted potential not taking your standard aoe hold.  

 

All I can say is to each their own but after playing Blasters my perception of controls sets have changed drastically and for me personally that experience as well as many other experiences has shined a light at how anemic control can be for certain sets compared to the mitigation of some Blast, Support and Melee sets.

The only AOE holds that I take these days are Volcanic Gasses and Shadow Field for obvious reasons.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Tater Todd

[Tater Todd]

Oh and I forgot to add that I vehemently dislike Mind Control but when I do use it I normally will take the AOE Hold because I like having the option of switching between Mass Confusion and Total Domination like Mezmera mentioned above.  Normally, I will take my AOE Hold on sets like Mind (which I barely play), Dark or Earth but on anything else...skipping my Control T7 is not uncommon.

[Arcadio]

19 minutes ago, Tater Todd said:

after playing Blasters my perception of controls sets have changed drastically

I agree after playing around with the aoe CC in blaster secondaries. Especially with the nin pocket sand with a purple proc, it's up there with seeds. Still, I take the aoe holds for a panic button/basi gaze mule.

[Cenozoic]

2 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

I think we should leave Plant Control alone and focus more on Mind Control. 

I would love to see Telekinesis get switched out with Mass Levitate.  I think the Mind Control version should have the same recharge as Telekinesis but instead of it being 10 meters like the Psionic Melee version it should extend to a 20 meter radius and dish out 6 Knock Up instead of Mass Levitate's 4.15 Knock up.  I also think it should dish out -To Hit or -DMG but I would prefer -To Hit.

I also think Mass Confusion's recharge time should be dramatically shaved down to either 90 or 120 seconds.

 

Agreed, there is a lot of low-hanging improvement fruit in Mind.  Some ideas (not necessary to do them all).

 

Mass Hypnosis:  add -Perception component (as if the mob just woke up and is groggy)

Telekinesis:  Tater's Mass Levitate idea is really fun.  A PBAoE in the set would synergize well with /Psionic for Dominators and /Dark for Controllers

Total Domination:  Recharge 120 seconds

Terrify:  Put the -ToHit back in

Mass Confusion:  Recharge 120 seconds

 

Secondarily:  Let Plant keep Seeds of Confusion, but match the recharge, at least, to 120s.  Not wanting to nerf them, but agreed that T9 should not be outdone by a T...not 9.

 

[GM Tempest]

Keep in mind there might be some technical difficulties of just making Random Mob X be your pet, I can't imagine that would be just a simple thing to add. A psychic entity like Gravity's Singularity might be interesting, but then that damage type is much more resisted vs psychic damage. Hm. Something to think abou!

[UltraAlt]

On 5/10/2021 at 5:26 PM, oedipus_tex said:

AoE Holds

 

I get these on Controllers for sure. (Don't play my doms enough...or really don't pay attention enough if I'm playing a dom half the time to think about if I have the AOE hold for them or not) *

It's an "Oh, guano!" power. 

When the team gets in a bad situation. I fire off the AOE Hold and fall back. Sometimes it is more than enough to turn the tide of a battle that is going south.

I generally only use it once or twice during a mission due to the end expenditure. 

 

*So many characters, so much character/server jumping!

[UltraAlt]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:52 PM, Cenozoic said:

Telekinesis:  Tater's Mass Levitate idea is really fun.  A PBAoE in the set would synergize well with /Psionic for Dominators and /Dark for Controllers

 

A cool power, but can be horrible on a team. I rarely take it.

 

Meanwhile, in a "Kill All" mission somewhere in the heart of Pargaon City ...

"Where is the last guy in this mission? We have been all over the place," types out frustrated player.

Everyone turns and looks at the controller that has been casting telekinesis on every other group during the mission.

[Tater Todd]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:15 AM, GM Tempest said:

Keep in mind there might be some technical difficulties of just making Random Mob X be your pet, I can't imagine that would be just a simple thing to add. A psychic entity like Gravity's Singularity might be interesting, but then that damage type is much more resisted vs psychic damage. Hm. Something to think abou!

I've been more than envious of Penelope Yin's floating fuzzy Psi entity.

[VV]

Ugh, there's a ton of stuff wrong with Mind Control. I mean, they are the only set with a 6s recharge on their T1 power.  WTF is up with that? And, they tried to combine Telepathic and Telekinetic into the same set, (same with Psionic Assault), so neither effect gets a fair shake. Anyway, to the subject at hand.

 

The petlessness is a significant problem. I also agree that it would be sort of out of theme for them to summon something. I think in this case, real issue is that in team combat, Confuse is just used as a soft hold. The victims are still targetable by PCs, so they tend to last barely enough time to do anything.

 

A big issue is that they steal XP. If any other pets kills something, everyone gets normal XP and lewt for it, but if a confused opponent does, the players do not get XP. How is that fair?

 

Lastly, the power of most NPCs tends to be pathetic compared to other control pets. Heck, Singularity dies less often than my actual Gravity Controller. All of the actual pets have a good variety of both damaging and controlling powers. They are way more powerful than a minion, and about as powerful as a +1 or +2 boss, maybe more. But, the listed duration is for even-con minions, and drops off pretty fast as you go up the scales. Try this solo, 6-slot Confuse with Coersive Persuasion, pop domination, and go try to control a +2 or +4 boss, see how long it lasts. I mean, you can probably keep it perma, but you spend a lot of time reapplying

 

What would be nice would be to make the L32 power a perma Mind Possession, single target, that turns an opponent into a legit pet. 240s recharge, just like all pets. Cannot be targeted by friends, no chance of breaking free, he's just your pool boy until you're done with him. To keep the dicey nature of the Mind Control set, give it 100% chance to apply to even-con minions, then a sliding scale up the power level. You can get you a minion for sure, but if you try for a boss or EB, you will probably be without a pet until it recharges. And, for more player-annoying fun, instead of dying when you die, it reverts to normal state and probably attacks the party. Then, rearrange the other powers to make it fit, dump any of the stupid ones, plenty of choices (Telekinesis please). And there you go.

 

Damn, that rant went on longer than I expected. I just really want to play a good mentalist, I guess.

[Mezmera]

If you'd like me to PL you with my Mind dom @VV I'd be more than happy to.    I'll even let you pick whatever group of enemies you'd like and the settings then you can go make some popcorn.  

 

Confuse on a dom should neither be considered a hold nor soft control.  Nor should any loss in xp/influence be considered when the time spent killing said group is amplified way more than a little loss in xp.  If you're doing it right though you should be dropping that mass confuse and blasting them with your aoe's as they blast each other so there's minimal loss in xp/inf.  

 

Tweaks to Mind sure but this defeatist attitude is loathsome when I look at how strong my Mind dom is it makes me wonder do people play the same game?  Maybe it's me, I've been playing a Mind dom since day 1 of villains but we are way past the learning curve where anyone worth their salt should have caught up by now, especially with all of the new toys that have been added on that doms can take advantage of.  

Edited May 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[SwitchFade]

All build advice and guides removed.

Edited July 22, 2021 by SwitchFade

[MTeague]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:43 PM, VV said:

Confuse is just used as a soft hold. The victims are still targetable by PCs, so they tend to last barely enough time to do anything.

 

A big issue is that they steal XP. If any other pets kills something, everyone gets normal XP and lewt for it, but if a confused opponent does, the players do not get XP. How is that fair?

 

This is not true the vast majority of the time. 

If the Confused mob does 100% of the damage to another mob, then you get zero exp for the mob.

If ANY MEMBER of your team tags the target mob at all...  you still still get exp EVEN IF the confused mob deals the killing blow.

 

How hard is it to do "Mass Confuse / Psychic Toranado"?, bam, they're all beating each other up, but they've all been tagged, you're all getting XP.

Even easier on a Dominator with more AoE damage options. 

 

Will you occasionally lose xp for a stray minion or two here or there? Yea, sometimes.

Will you even NOTICE?  No. 

Lt / Boss and up XP is worth SO MUCH MORE than minion XP anyway.

 

Nothing wrong with Confuse. 

 

On 5/12/2021 at 10:15 AM, GM Tempest said:

Keep in mind there might be some technical difficulties of just making Random Mob X be your pet, I can't imagine that would be just a simple thing to add. A psychic entity like Gravity's Singularity might be interesting, but then that damage type is much more resisted vs psychic damage. Hm. Something to think abou!

I would be power-sad if Mind lost a power I use to make way for a psychic-construct summonable pet. If you have any whispers of that becoming a thing, then I would *really* BEG that the door of mutually-exclusive power choices (like Sentinal Practiced Brawler/Master Brawler) to be re-opened.

 

Pleeeaase Let me retain an option for Petless Mind Controller.

Edited May 20, 2021 by MTeague

[oedipus_tex]

IMO the reason Confuse penalties are a non-factor is that as far as I know there's no penalty to inspiration drops due to damage done by Confused enemies. If you do any damage to a defeated enemy, your chances for a drop seem to be the same. That's part of why Seeds of Confusion is so amazing on lawnmower builds, your inspiration tray floods with inspirations, and that more than offsets any influence or XP loss.

[tidge]

18 hours ago, MTeague said:

 

If the Confused mob does 100% of the damage to another mob, then you get zero exp for the mob.

If ANY MEMBER of your team tags the target mob at all...  you still still get exp EVEN IF the confused mob deals the killing blow.

 

How hard is it to do "Mass Confuse / Psychic Toranado"?, bam, they're all beating each other up, but they've all been tagged, you're all getting XP.

Even easier on a Dominator with more AoE damage options. 

 

Will you occasionally lose xp for a stray minion or two here or there? Yea, sometimes.

Will you even NOTICE?  No. 

Lt / Boss and up XP is worth SO MUCH MORE than minion XP anyway.

 

This argument is why I advocate putting the %damage procs in (PBAoE) Mass Confusion. Slot the %Contagious Confusion in the single-target confuse power. Draw blood to claim those precious drops.

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

This argument is why I advocate putting the %damage procs in (PBAoE) Mass Confusion. Slot the %Contagious Confusion in the single-target confuse power. Draw blood to claim those precious drops.

 

Same.  If I'm using that Mass Confusion I'm jumping in ready to fight.  The ST confuse for me is to sneakily make a target I want my pet before I decide to fight.  

[Arcadio]

12 hours ago, tidge said:

This argument is why I advocate putting the %damage procs in (PBAoE) Mass Confusion. Slot the %Contagious Confusion in the single-target confuse power. Draw blood to claim those precious drops.

Absolutely. MC is more like a nuke to me with the damage proc. It tags almost everyone with a little damage and I can just walk away, the group's dead.

[KaizenSoze]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:21 PM, SwitchFade said:

1. Don't play mind control like other sets. If you do, you'll disappoint yourself. Like trying to tow a trailer with a sports car. Play mind, like mind, and it's superb.

 

2. Mind is not all about mass confusion, MC is nice, but it's only a small part of the toolkit.

 

3. Mind, like storm, is unique and one must learn to use it in order to unleash it's true potential.

 

4. Mind is tactical and proactive, you must not wait for the team, and you must use positioning, until you have the right mix of IOs

 

5. With the right mix of IOs, mind is incredibly potent.

 

6. Mind can do things to bosses and AVs that most sets cannot.

 

7. Mind: all MOBs are my pets, watch them scurry.

 

8. Mind needs a small refresh, but not nearly what people think, it's mostly user error that makes people think sits not as strong as other sets.

 

  I have been watching the mind good/bad debate for more than a year.

 

  Now, that we can stream again. Maybe a video of Mind Control is action would help clear the air.

 

  Someone could run the Trapdoor test and post their video. One of the runs recorded is a fire/fire/fire dom with a good sub 6 min run.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[honoroit]

~~~~ mind control is fine. you don't want a pet.  you can't remember why you're here. ~~~~

 

[oedipus_tex]

On 5/21/2021 at 12:45 PM, KaizenSoze said:

 

  I have been watching the mind good/bad debate for more than a year.

 

  Now, that we can stream again. Maybe a video of Mind Control is action would help clear the air.

 

  Someone could run the Trapdoor test and post their video. One of the runs recorded is a fire/fire/fire dom with a good sub 6 min run.

 

 

 

 

 

I have not tried this particular test but Mind Control probably does do pretty well at it because it speaks to its strength.

 

My Elec/Psi Dominator simply cannot beat Arachnos solo on +4x8. I have tried and tried and can usually not get past the first group. Mind Control and Electric Control both have a non-notify AoE Confuse, and I suspect I could beat them with something like a Mind/Energy build with Powered Up Mass Confusion. I suspect I'd also have a really poor clear time. 

 

But also the fact that other archetypes consider running an Arachnos mission at +4x8 a decent benchmark really does point, I think, to the overall struggles of the Dominator archetype. Part of is just that Arachnos targets Dominator's specific greatest weakness, -Recharge. But part of it just sort of highlights that the mezz-or-die with no native backup healing or armor falls apart fast against difficult enemy groups in a way that Armor sets (for example) do not. 

 

[JJDrakken]

Simple Fix, replace single target confuse with the AoE Confuse, put in the Psi Pet Yin has for the pet. Ta-da.

[oedipus_tex]

I just had a closer look at the Trapdoor mission and there are a lot fewer Archanos than I had remembered. That mission probably is doable by a lot of top end Dominators. The parts where you drop down the elevator shafts are likely to be particularly stressful for this AT. Mind Control has a leg up there because it can do it invisibly. I suppose anyone else can too if they turn off their pets and auras.  

[MoonSheep]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:57 AM, Mezmera said:

If you'd like me to PL you with my Mind dom @VV I'd be more than happy to.    I'll even let you pick whatever group of enemies you'd like and the settings then you can go make some popcorn.  

 

Confuse on a dom should neither be considered a hold nor soft control.  Nor should any loss in xp/influence be considered when the time spent killing said group is amplified way more than a little loss in xp.  If you're doing it right though you should be dropping that mass confuse and blasting them with your aoe's as they blast each other so there's minimal loss in xp/inf.  

 

Tweaks to Mind sure but this defeatist attitude is loathsome when I look at how strong my Mind dom is it makes me wonder do people play the same game?  Maybe it's me, I've been playing a Mind dom since day 1 of villains but we are way past the learning curve where anyone worth their salt should have caught up by now, especially with all of the new toys that have been added on that doms can take advantage of.  

 

Well said mate 

 

From my view as a mind/fire permadom main which this thread is more about inexperience than any problem with mind control. A few tweaks for quality of life may be nice, but the set is great as-is.

 

lol @ people wanting a pet 

Edited May 30, 2021 by MoonSheep