The pains of being Melee

[hakurr]

So how many of you have got on to a team and as the fighting begins you are having to run around like crazy to get to your targets because the ranged and controller types have either locked everything down all spread apart or his the area with an attack that has the enemies scattering around like crazy.

 

i love playing tanks not saying i am the greatest at it i for sure could use some improvement. but some times i think that non melee characters don't understand that melee do there best when everything is in a close group. it helps with the tanker getting and keeping agro, it allows the brute to increase his fury easier and i don't know if it is true but it seems like on a scrapper and stalker when they don't have to run all over the place and the more steady there attack chain is the more critical hit you see.

 

i know it seems wrong to just stand there but i have found that in the groups i have played with that allow the the tank to group things up and melee begin there attacks then controllers lock the group down and or ranged attacks begin things seem to go a lot better and a lot less chance of deaths. i know that there are ambushes that jump in but that is when you tank should grab there agro and leave the rest of the melee to deal with the group that is locked down or being dealt with . 

 

Everyone in COH now a days seems to be in a huge rush to get through everything i find my self at times wanting to rush through content as well  i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

[MTeague]

26 minutes ago, hakurr said:

 i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

This is a big part of why I solo as much as I do. 

 

I enjoy reading the NPC text, and the mission text. Doesn't matter if it's a story arc I've already done 20 times. I still like reading them. 

Teams won't wait. So I usually don't team.

[UberGuy]

33 minutes ago, hakurr said:

Everyone in COH now a days seems to be in a huge rush to get through everything i find my self at times wanting to rush through content as well  i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

 

There are probably a lot of OG players here who've seen all but the most recent content hundreds, even thousands of times. They don't all want to rush through content, and all new players don't want to stop and smell the roses, but I am sure it's part of what you're seeing.

 

As far as your complaint about scatter, while it's usually extra annoying for melee, it's annoying for anyone who has their own AoEs to leverage. Spreading foes all over does no one any favors. But everyone isn't interested in efficient play. Some folks just want the visceral fun of sending things flying. I'm not a fan, but I sorta get it.

[cranebump]

I don’t mind being “inefficient” according to old school standards near as much as I mind the teams where 2-3 people rush ahead with no communication as to their intent. In typical groups, the only action that actually annoys me is when someone phase shifts a mob while I am trying to throw down ranged attacks. Everything else is tolerable.

Edited May 11, 2021 by cranebump

[Myrmidon]

Join the Church of Holy Fold Space. All praise @Captain Powerhouse!

Edited May 11, 2021 by Myrmidon

[Captain Powerhouse]

Until he nerfs the thing, because everyone knows that dude hates fun.

[Leo_G]

16 hours ago, hakurr said:

Everyone in COH now a days seems to be in a huge rush to get through everything i find my self at times wanting to rush through content as well  i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

First you're complaining about scattered mobs slowing down your DPS then you complain about players rushing to defeat stuff too fast? Seems a mite contradictory.

 

FYI, every set-up is going to have their ups and downs. Did you know a debuff powerset has trouble contributing on teams that kill too fast? Or that single target focused sets have to waste their potential waiting for a team to gather the mobs in neat little herds? Or that over-control can reduce the effectiveness of other control effects?

 

If you're having problems contributing, try reassessing your tactics. You're a melee, so go jump into a spawn early. Focus on meatier targets instead of button mashing every minion with a hair of health. Pick up some ranged attacks so you can plink at foes instead of chasing them. Even if your contribution isn't at its maximum, does it really matter if the team is successful?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Leo_G

[hakurr]

10 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

First you're complaining about scattered mobs slowing down your DPS then you complain about players rushing to defeat stuff too fast? Seems a mite contradictory.

 

i never said anything about slowing down DPS i said the scattered mobs make it to were melee players have to run all over the place. and as a tank i do move on to the next group but only after the Bosses are down and i know the team can handle what i leave them. i also am not saying that everyone plays that way just seems like more recently there has been more times than not i am seeing this happen and i may be keeping a couple bosses on me and 10 other things and people are running ahead and pulling stuff then complaining that the tank could not hold agro. lol i guess i am just venting a little here i still love the game and even at this moment can't wait to get off work to be able to get on and play.

[oedipus_tex]

Take Combat Teleport and create a bind that casts it at your current target. I believe that is:

 

/macro CT powexeclocation target "Combat Teleport"

 

Tap that to instantly teleport directly in front of each enemy you want to attack, with no running. You get a brief ToHit bonus too.

[Myrmidon]

38 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Take Combat Teleport and create a bind that casts it at your current target. I believe that is:

 

/macro CT powexeclocation target "Combat Teleport"

 

Tap that to instantly teleport directly in front of each enemy you want to attack, with no running. You get a brief ToHit bonus too.

For the less tech-savvy, this can also be accomplished by placing Combat Teleport in Slot 1-2 and using your pinkie to activate.

[Lusiphur Malache]

Pick 1 or 2 targets out of every group to deal with then move on to the next group. Hard head makes for a soft ass, let the ranged deal with their own mess. They'll either learn to coexist or they won't.

[Hew]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Take Combat Teleport and create a bind that casts it at your current target. I believe that is:

 

/macro CT powexeclocation target "Combat Teleport"

 

Tap that to instantly teleport directly in front of each enemy you want to attack, with no running. You get a brief ToHit bonus too.

For the less tech-savvy, this can also be accomplished by placing Combat Teleport in Slot 1-2 and using your pinkie to activate.

 

 

This is the solution to pretty much every "tanks" position that aoe immob sucks and nobody waits for them.

 

Nobody SHOULD wait for the tank. The tank should be up front and center before anyone even shows up. If you are moving at the pace of the team, one of two things is true: You are in over your head, the difficulty isnt set appropriately, or you are unfamiliar with how your _tank_ plays.

 

CT and/or FS eliminate any problem the OP might have with regards to positioning. CT takes some small effort to get used to, but it makes tank combat warp speed. It is easily feasible to tag into a spawn faaaaar ahead of the dregs of the melee with CT. If you are waiting for every last single thing to be killed, you also don't have confidence in the team. If 2 bosses and a lt are standing after the first few seconds of melee where all the alphas get unloaded, any large size team, and most medium sized teams can kill off 2 bosses and a lt in short order. Which means, you should have already CT'd into the next spawn, or FS'd it directly into whatever mess of patch powers are where current sit (ice patch, creepers, rains, etc etc).

 

The changes to foldspace and introduction of combat teleport makes tanking/bruting pretty chill. Or even scrapperlock, but we dont talk about that here.

 

The +tohit is _significant_ if you ct 2 times in a row. 

 

My use of this is to bind it to f ( /bind f powexec_location target "combat teleport" ).

 

Here are some extremely useful binds/macros that I stole from some people last year that also understood its value. This is direct cnp, I don't have the original thread.

 

 

(cut)

/bind c powexec_location back:35 combat teleport

(this scoots me back about 15 feet.  this is also ESPECIAlLY good in the new patch, which changes it so now your camera stays pointed the same direction instead of turning 180 degrees!)

I'm interested to try the method I think I saw up-thread, using Shift+w/a/s/d to create a separate layer of movement keys that are all teleports.  Probably something like 

/bind lshift+w powexec_location forward:35 combat teleport

/bind lshift+d powexec_location right:35 combat teleport

/bind lshift+a powexec_location left:35 combat teleport

/bind lshift+s powexec_location back:35 combat teleport

You can change your number values to whatever you want, but I find the mid-thirties to be a nice amount of actual distance while usually still in the same room. Maybe I'd set the forward to be the highest, and the side directions to be a bit lower, like 55/25/25/35 ?

 

(paste)

 

[cranebump]

5 hours ago, Hew said:

CT and/or FS eliminate any problem the OP might have with regards to positioning. CT takes some small effort to get used to, but it makes tank combat warp speed. It is easily feasible to tag into a spawn faaaaar ahead of the dregs of the melee with CT. If you are waiting for every last single thing to be killed, you also don't have confidence in the team. If 2 bosses and a lt are standing after the first few seconds of melee where all the alphas get unloaded, any large size team, and most medium sized teams can kill off 2 bosses and a lt in short order. Which means, you should have already CT'd into the next spawn, or FS'd it directly into whatever mess of patch powers are where current sit (ice patch, creepers, rains, etc etc).

 

While I don't disagree at all with the logic of the above, speaking as one who is very often one of those ranged toons who ends up playing free safety when the tanks (and not always the tanks these days) run off to the next group while I clean up their mess, I can tell you I don't view that action as "confidence" in my ability. It looks and feels a lot more like, "I'm going to take care of me, and the hell with you." Fair enough, save when you bail out and leave multiple purps and oranges, which me and maybe 2 other people have to clean up, thus putting us behind the rest of the group while we sweep up the detritus.

 

And while I solidly agree with the argument that I'm in charge of my own fun, and therefore don't have to play with bumrush teams if I don't dig that, it is increasingly the standard mode of play, which, for some of us, is something to be more tolerated than enjoyed. I'm not gonna begrudge anybody their steamrolling. but, honestly, teammates don't seem to need each other near as much as they used to (except, as this example attests, to clean up their scraps). We've gained a great deal, but this feels like an unfortunate byproduct of making the rare run-of-the-mill.

[Leo_G]

5 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

While I don't disagree at all with the logic of the above, speaking as one who is very often one of those ranged toons who ends up playing free safety when the tanks (and not always the tanks these days) run off to the next group while I clean up their mess, I can tell you I don't view that action as "confidence" in my ability. It looks and feels a lot more like, "I'm going to take care of me, and the hell with you." Fair enough, save when you bail out and leave multiple purps and oranges, which me and maybe 2 other people have to clean up, thus putting us behind the rest of the group while we sweep up the detritus.

 

And while I solidly agree with the argument that I'm in charge of my own fun, and therefore don't have to play with bumrush teams if I don't dig that, it is increasingly the standard mode of play, which, for some of us, is something to be more tolerated than enjoyed. I'm not gonna begrudge anybody their steamrolling. but, honestly, teammates don't seem to need each other near as much as they used to (except, as this example attests, to clean up their scraps). We've gained a great deal, but this feels like an unfortunate byproduct of making the rare run-of-the-mill.

 

This is a problem that has, by and large, always existed but had escalated more and more as changes are made and knowledge is shared.

 

I think the trend you are experiencing is the fixation on AoE damage. This had always been an unquenchable thirst to make more mobs be swept away by a tsunami of high damage, large sized, stacking, fast recharging AoEs and nukes to the point that is most of some players' contribution and the type of mob has little to no effect on this tactic.

 

But I don't see a big issue with your particular situation (encounter balance aside) as there will be a point in navigating a map where those spawn-hoppers will have to change direction, change floors or some situation where they are forced to take care of the whole spawn or they just de-aggro and if you have stealth, you can just ignore the stragglers and fully catch up.

[cranebump]

45 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

But I don't see a big issue with your particular situation (encounter balance aside) as there will be a point in navigating a map where those spawn-hoppers will have to change direction, change floors or some situation where they are forced to take care of the whole spawn or they just de-aggro and if you have stealth, you can just ignore the stragglers and fully catch up.

 

It's not that I can't adequately follow, or don't know how to follow, or don't have stealth, yaddyaddayadda. It's the tacit expectation that I'm supposed to sweep up after someone else, which gives the impression that the spawn hopper's fun is more important than mine (I should note here, I'll stay behind and clear with my melees, unless everyone else has run off). I should probably be more clear here: I'm talking about getting on a team and this occurs without any mention of speedrunning, or any communication at all. As I see this "hit and run" style more often than I did on Live, it leads me to believe this has become more the norm, rather than the exception. PCs are generally tougher. Enemies are eternally stagnant. The natural consequence is that the typical mish in the default game is a pancake run, so no one really worries about anybody else. That's one thing that I miss when it comes to pick-up groups now, versus back then. Felt like we needed each other more, or more often, anyway.

 

Of course, maybe that's just nostalgia talking...

Edited May 11, 2021 by cranebump

[Hew]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

when the tanks (and not always the tanks these days) run off to the next group while I clean up their mess, I can tell you I don't view that action as "confidence" in my ability.

 

Heres the thing, and was pointed out in the previous post: The tank (assuming it is a tank) needs to be aware of the team. If the team is performing at X level of function, and then decides to get stupid with the AOE damage @Leo_G, you can't fault the tank. The tank was operating under X circumstances, adjusting the level constantly, keeping an eye on how the team operates, and the team (possibly just one or maybe 2 people) decides to alter that by feeling "frisky" and runs ahead or branches off or gets scrapperlock and splits the team or generally gets people killed. At some point earlier, the team was indeed functioning well; the tank is able to keep ahead enough of the carnage to ensure smooth passage of the team, and the team is feeling valuable. Friskiness ensues, people die, and then ragequit, blame the tank, or any of a number of things.

 

If the tank cant trust the team to clean up one or two stragglers, then the team cant fault the tank for not being forward enough to control agro and "letting" squishies die.

 

It is a two way street, and everyone has to work together, or people die. Simple as that. 

[Hew]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

when the tanks (and not always the tanks these days) run off to the next group while I clean up their mess

This is quoted out separately, since everyone and their brother, sister, robot cousin, and alien overlord seems to have scrapperlock nowadays and can cause mass chaos all by their self.

 

Modern play (and even at the tail Live) has trollers, doms, 'fenders, coors(light), pretty much everything except masterminds kitted out to such extremes that soloing at 2/8 or better (or slightly less but not much) is totally common; people kitted out in that way horribly skew team mechanics. Noobs get slaughtered, not-so-noobs early in their build slotting may or may not get slaughtered, and the rest of the team just, well, scrapperlock.

 

It is pretty unfortunate.

[cranebump]

16 minutes ago, Hew said:

 

Heres the thing, and was pointed out in the previous post: The tank (assuming it is a tank) needs to be aware of the team. If the team is performing at X level of function, and then decides to get stupid with the AOE damage @Leo_G, you can't fault the tank. The tank was operating under X circumstances, adjusting the level constantly, keeping an eye on how the team operates, and the team (possibly just one or maybe 2 people) decides to alter that by feeling "frisky" and runs ahead or branches off or gets scrapperlock and splits the team or generally gets people killed. At some point earlier, the team was indeed functioning well; the tank is able to keep ahead enough of the carnage to ensure smooth passage of the team, and the team is feeling valuable. Friskiness ensues, people die, and then ragequit, blame the tank, or any of a number of things.

 

If the tank cant trust the team to clean up one or two stragglers, then the team cant fault the tank for not being forward enough to control agro and "letting" squishies die.

 

It is a two way street, and everyone has to work together, or people die. Simple as that. 

 

Well, to be clear, I'm not saying "blame the tank" (and I never blame anyone when I faceplant [except myself, when I deserve it]). I'm saying blame the clueless, rude person who runs ahead before the job is done - which is much more often the case than anything you're mentioning here. That person is not tanking (a lot of the time, they're not even a classic tank). They're just running off, leaving pieces of their laundry everywhere. I don't feel like this should be the expectation, is all. I feel it must be, though, since this type of play does not get announced prior to the mishes where I've seen it occur.

Edited May 11, 2021 by cranebump

[Leo_G]

39 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

It's not that I can't adequately follow, or don't know how to follow, or don't have stealth, yaddyaddayadda. It's the tacit expectation that I'm supposed to sweep up after someone else, which gives the impression that the spawn hopper's fun is more important than mine (I should note here, I'll stay behind and clear with my melees, unless everyone else has run off). 

My overall point though was, you don't HAVE to do any of that. If it feels demeaning to you, then don't. Some members of a team actually do like picking off weak stragglers. I know for a fact, my Stalkers don't bother clearing up the aftermath. I only worry about bosses and trouble targets while on teams. Only if the team is struggling and need everything to keep going do I put in my all. Heck, sometimes I don't even fight (if the team is a snoozer stream roll) and just collect/take out the mission requirements (unless the leader explicitly said not to). I find that is a fun change of pace.

 

But then I'm an oddball and rarely use my full kit as it makes me feel like an anime character who only needs 10% of my power to dispose of my enemies (not literal 10%).

 

If the team is struggling is when the leader needs to assess the situation. If not, it's a free for all. Don't feel obligated to picking up sometime else's trash. Do what you find fun.

 

46 minutes ago, Hew said:

 

The tank (assuming it is a tank) needs to be aware of the team. If the team is performing at X level of function, and then decides to get stupid with the AOE damage @Leo_G, you can't fault the tank. 

 

Not sure if you were talking to me but I'm not faulting the tank. What I was saying is there's just a meta that favors AoE and no AI or mechanic that opposes that meta. All in all, it's only logical to maximize your output by constantly rotating high AoE on mass targets and when there are less targets available,  move on to the next mass of targets.

 

One recommendation I once made to counter this was, at x6 and above, a new "rank" of mob could start showing up that has the effective strength of (thus replacing) a minion, the HP of an LT but have an inherent ability that counts that target as 3 targets and push them up as priority when AoEs are used in their proximity. Having 3 show up in a spawn effectively cuts AoE's target caps in half which are more easily focused down with ST. 

 

The usual rebuttal is players don't want their AoEs nerfed but this isn't a nerf to AoE, it's giving the foe a fighting chance. People say they want to have content that is harder at the top end but they don't actually want the enemy to be able to fight back.

[siolfir]

10 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

People say they want to have content that is harder at the top end but they don't actually want the enemy to be able to fight back.

To be fair, those are usually two different groups of people. Not always, but usually.

 

But I couldn't agree more with this part:

11 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

Do what you find fun.

 

[Hew]

26 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

One recommendation I once made to counter this was, at x6 and above, a new "rank" of mob could start showing up that has the effective strength of (thus replacing) a minion, the HP of an LT but have an inherent ability that counts that target as 3 targets and push them up as priority when AoEs are used in their proximity. Having 3 show up in a spawn effectively cuts AoE's target caps in half which are more easily focused down with ST. 

This is intriguing to me. I had thought about minion to lt bump in the past; previously it seemed untenable due to the number of SO only builds out there.

 

But today? Even with half the team  unslotted or on generics, I think this might be doable... I certainly would play at that difficulty, as its not so brain-meltingly difficult as to stomp generic or SO only peeps...

[Xenosone]

The team needs to get rid of aoe immob or give it a higher threat rating to discourage active morons from continuing to use it.

By active moron i mean a person that came straight from ae to jump into a team and show off how 1337 his world of warcraft skillz are

[archgemini24]

13 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

People say they want to have content that is harder at the top end but they don't actually want the enemy to be able to fight back.

 

Have to agree with this part. For teams that are not rolling packs of fully Incarnate-slotted demigods, I feel like there are enemy groups with tricks and ways around our obnoxious build strategies already: Rularuu, Arachnos, Longbow, Carnies, Malta, Vanguard, even some Devouring Earth and some of the stuff in Dark Astoria (where enemies receive a base to-hit bonus). Even among the forumites, some of those group are notorious for what they can do and get avoided because of it.

 

As far as the idea of beefier minions that have more HP in exchange for counting as more than one mob for the sake of adding some single-target emphasis or adding more value or to staying around to clean-up after the initial AoE wave, why not have the option to expand the concept to lieutenants and bosses, as well, so long as the defeated enemy is worth the same as the original mobs it replaced (or at least in the same ballpark)? More options to customize the playing experience are usually a good thing, but if the return doesn't stack up, the options may never be used. If I am dealing with a Lieutenant with the HP of 3 Lieutenants, and it effectively consumed 2 other enemies in the group, I am already losing the extra drop chances by not blitzing lesser enemies, but no need to stiff me on XP and INF, too.

[Riverdusk]

20 hours ago, hakurr said:

So how many of you have got on to a team and as the fighting begins you are having to run around like crazy to get to your targets because the ranged and controller types have either locked everything down all spread apart or his the area with an attack that has the enemies scattering around like crazy.

 

i love playing tanks not saying i am the greatest at it i for sure could use some improvement. but some times i think that non melee characters don't understand that melee do there best when everything is in a close group. it helps with the tanker getting and keeping agro, it allows the brute to increase his fury easier and i don't know if it is true but it seems like on a scrapper and stalker when they don't have to run all over the place and the more steady there attack chain is the more critical hit you see.

 

i know it seems wrong to just stand there but i have found that in the groups i have played with that allow the the tank to group things up and melee begin there attacks then controllers lock the group down and or ranged attacks begin things seem to go a lot better and a lot less chance of deaths. i know that there are ambushes that jump in but that is when you tank should grab there agro and leave the rest of the melee to deal with the group that is locked down or being dealt with . 

 

Everyone in COH now a days seems to be in a huge rush to get through everything i find my self at times wanting to rush through content as well  i wonder how many people playing today know the story behind the missions that they are running and how many just click to get to the next mission.

 

Every AT has their "pains".  You adapt, you overcome, or you find a different team (or start one) that fits your preferred playstyle better.  Personally I generally let people play how they want and have fun unless they are truly trolling or if the team has a special goal that is announced ahead of time.  This game isn't that hard where you have to be 100% efficient all the time.

 

As to the aoe immobilizes specifically, I'll give the melee a few moments to "gather", but if they fail to do so, I start doing whatever I feel is most effective.  One of my favorite characters is a plant/dark controller so that one also has three different pets (flytrap, creepers, dark servant) that also like to immobilize things all on their own, so I'll actually even hang back a bit to try and prevent them from going crazy too early. 

 

A lot of times though melee are all off doing their own thing and also keeping things separated (each with their own taunt auras), or they make no effort to gather, or the mobs are of a type that don't like to gather and melee aren't trying to use LOS, or the blasters or incarnates incinerate everything in the first 5 seconds before things even have a chance to "gather".  At that point I also alter my tactics as in a lot of situations waiting for "gathering" just means I'm standing there never doing anything.

 

Edit: Forgot, also situations where people are knocking things all over and in those cases I'll try to use my immobilizes to actually contain the mobs from BEING scattered.  Never fails though that sometimes someone throws a huge radial knockback power a split second before I throw my immobilize and then they are immobilized all over the place. 😄

Edited May 11, 2021 by Riverdusk

[iBot]

This sort of discussion always amuses me.  Back in the early days of live the prevailing wisdom was always let the tank gather as many mobs as possible and then when they are all packed in fire off your nuke and move on to the next big gathering.  Then the devs changed how agro works and tanks could no longer pull entire maps to one spot.  If you didn't have a tank then someone was designated as a "puller" and you'd try to split mobs up as much as possible before going in to finish off the groups and agro'ing more than one group was usually a team wipe.  Fast forward to now and you can build a blaster that can tank 4/8 by themselves without any issues.  Mind you I'm not complaining here in that I firmly fall into the category of "We are playing a 17 year old game.  Why are you stopping to admire the graphics?!?? Just play."  I've already done all the stories, read all the dialog, memorized most of the maps so the only fun I have is really chatting with those on the team and once in a while laughing when someone does something silly and gets themselves defeated.

 

Add to that the fact that we are not a group of teens anymore.  A lot of us can play while eating/drinking/smoking our favorite mood enhancing substance.  So "efficient" play is not always on the menu.  If you've never seen a drunken ITF it can be an experience all by itself.

So my advice to anyone that is miffed that sometimes players aren't "efficient" is to do your best to find friends that think just like you.  You'll enjoy the game much more and won't waste any energy trying to change those that don't play like you.  Because for some, mass chaos IS the whole point of playing.  And before you ask yes I play an NRG/NRG blaster that is actually slotted for maximum knockback that I know how to fully utilize to not only keep mobs off me but send them flying back to the melee group when they try to run at me.  And if they've run away from the melee and I notice, chances are they'll be dead before you even get there so don't bother chasing just go on to the next large group. 👍