What would you like to see in a Goldside rework?

[tidge]

I don't like that Praetoria was destroyed per the 'official Lore'. I prefer my CoX to be open-ended without necessarily trying to bring 'epic storytelling' into the MMORPG. My own feelings on this are tied up with how the desire for Incarnate-level content essentially demanded a blood sacrifice, and the end of Praetoria gave us a good look at the direction the Live Devs would have taken the game (as if Galaxy City and Dark Astoria were not sacrifices enough).

 

So... with my 'magic wand', I would

1. Subtly alter the resolution of the Praetoria story such that Hamidon doesn't win, but reaches a new accord with either Emperor Cole (preferable but unlikely, without some mission rework) or a suitable replacement character that essentially maintains the status quo of all the existing zones. Heck, I 'd accept primal Lord Recluse stepping in and putting a lackey in charge as long as the general populous of Praetoria doesn't know!
2. Arcs that rely on the 'total destruction' would have to be altered to be "what if? / Ouroboros" types ortweaked to simply be one-off examples of "Angry Hamidon" or as a result of general "escaping chaos in Praetoria"
3. Invent Praetorian Epic Archetypes. One PEAT would be a multi-path DE hybrid (demonstrating new levels of 'experimentation/trust', another PEAT would be a multi-path IDF... much like how VEATs work.

After this... well, I look forward to reading other player's ideas.

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, Hew said:

I have run it on teams. Its interesting, if you have some go undercover, and some straight contact, you can see a LOT of content in short order.

 

However, you REALLY get screwed on outleveling contacts. Especially on a team, way worse than solo... 😕

That is an issue.  Hmm.  How about this?  We need those two extra zones I spoke of, okay?  And we basically keep the same story beats but now spread them out across 5 zones so you're still going to be finishing the finale Neutropolis arcs at the end of the story, but rather than at 19/20 it'll be 39/40?  Some of the material will involve you going back to Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis, but that's narratively dealt with by saying you're going back to the capital/seat of power. And we fill around that with enough actual other material that's gold centric but effectively doesn't need to be done to follow the through line of the story arc.  

[Ukase]

The big things in my mind for gold side: 

Need praetorian equivalents of the 4 passive accolade powers. 
Gold side needs task forces. 

I know my thinking here is off the beaten path, but I think alignment in this game is ridiculous. This whole idea of heroes "registering" with city hall, and villains openly approaching contacts for dirty deeds, it's all quite silly. You think there are crooks that don't enter into a given area? Sure, there are. But there are also other crooks who do, and freely, because they are better at being a crook and escape detection. The population, the police, nobody knows they're crooks. This idea that a stalker, who's basically invisible can't freely stow away on a ferry to Paragon unless they see some bird on a van in an inter/non-dimensional club that plays the same music on a loop...seriously? 

Lose the bird. Lose the van. Heck, lose pocket D. All characters should be able to access all areas regardless of alignment. 

I get that it will never happen. I'm fine with it. I am okay thinking in my head that it's just silly the steps we have to take, but am grateful I don't have to do 10 missions and then a final mission to switch sides. 

But the two big things remain. If you want to level up from 1-50 as a praetorian, you're at a disadvantage, compared to heroes/villains. 

[Marine X]

Have just got my EM/Regen Brute Battlestrike to level 49. Ran him through Gold 1-20, then left for a short tour in blue that related to his back story, then back for First Ward. Then more character tie in stuff then Night Ward. Then Croatoa which factors into his back story. Then onto the Devouring Earth Content ( Blue ) and Praetorian Content ( Blue ). Haven't really teamed with others much but definitely have enjoyed going through all the related content. I often felt like the missions, even though not written as a Giant Arc, became one for me. It was a long time since I had done the Missions there and enjoyed finding my own way to create a tie in to his Gold origin in non-Praetoria Missions. Almost done with Indigo/Crimson, which I see as connecting to his Law Enforcement Background. Next will probably be Number Six and then Cimerora, since it also exists apart from Primal Earth.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Marine X

[Hew]

24 minutes ago, Darmian said:

And we basically keep the same story beats but now spread them out across 5 zones so you're still going to be finishing the finale Neutropolis arcs at the end of the story, but rather than at 19/20 it'll be 39/40?

This potentially might work, because goldside mobs in the 15-20s range can be brutal. But then you skip firstward.

[Dahkness]

If there was some kind of accolade power I could get I would definitely try out gold side to unlock something

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

This potentially might work, because goldside mobs in the 15-20s range can be brutal. But then you skip firstward.

Well right now anyone can do First Ward, but it's the only 20-30 zone Praetorians can do, 

[Xenosone]

11 hours ago, Darmian said:

In an ideal world, yes.  But you instantly run the danger of out levelling the existing content of Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis, and the story there is actually the main point of it, more so than Paragon or Rogue Isles.

What about some post 20 PST? Something 20-25. That always seems to be a good range and as yin has proven, 4 missions arent horrid. 

Heck the hc devs could even hold a contest and let the Real Ae storytellers come up with something. Let the players decide on some 10 odd good ones to filter the lame farmer maps and then go from there. (Player made ae storeis have severe limitations)

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Xenosone said:

What about some post 20 PST? Something 20-25. That always seems to be a good range and as yin has proven, 4 missions arent horrid. 

Heck the hc devs could even hold a contest and let the Real Ae storytellers come up with something. Let the players decide on some 10 odd good ones to filter the lame farmer maps and then go from there. (Player made ae storeis have severe limitations)

Already filling in a tiny gap between the end of Neutropolis and crossover/going to First Ward with my own AEs (in signature, levels 19-24)  Not attempted anything like a TF due to, as you say, limits.  Especially of Praetorian map choices.  With the best will in the world there's only so many Underground missions you want to see.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Darmian

[ZemX]

12 hours ago, Lens Perchance said:

Tell me what you think: Gold side rework, pipe dream or plausible?

 Pipe dream, sadly.  Crack pipe dream.

 

Look at redside.  It has pretty much everything various folks in this thread are suggesting (and more) to be added to Goldside.  More story arcs.  More contacts.  More zones. Bank missions.  Strike Forces.  Accolades.  Access to co-op zones.

 

And it's a ghost town on most servers.  This is going to sound harsh maybe, but attempting to revitalize Goldside by essentially re-running the City of Villains experiment again is the definition of insanity.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I'd love to see all this and more happen to Goldside... it just wouldn't change much.  People go where the most people are and thus the most activity.   Blueside.  For Goldside, I would only make the same suggestions I did for Redside and some have already made here.  Let people run content whereever they want.  It still won't balance the sides but that's not a realistic goal anyway at this very late date.   First Ward and Night Ward aren't exactly hopping but you DO sometimes see mission teams running there.  Why? 

 

Because anyone on any side can go there and start one.  Make that happen EVERYWHERE in the game.  Redside, Blueside, and Goldside.

[Lazarillo]

Expanding the level ranges would, with just that alone, be a huge help.  It's too easy to out-level the story, and the story's basically the main reason to start there.  There's presently no reason to make it more "team friendly" or add TFs, or the like, because if you were to team, you'd miss the entire reason to play there in the first place!  Keeping the minimum levels as they are while expanding the caps would allow for more options, and unlike a lot of blue/red content, IMO, you wouldn't necessarily even need to worry about enemies getting too easy because, well, let's face it, most goldside enemies are punishing as-is.

 

Beyond that, I guess, just make it possible to transition more naturally to First Ward?  An actual contact path for Loyalist/Resistance (I could swear there was one in the old days), and stuff like Katie Douglas not going from "you saved my life and all I hold dear and I will never forget you" to "I have no idea who the hell you are but I will never stop telling you how much I hate you" to the Wardens (and similar with Ghouls and Crusaders?).

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Make that happen EVERYWHERE in the game.  Redside, Blueside, and Goldside.

Sounds good.  But that defeats the entire point of Goldside.

[ZemX]

57 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Sounds good.  But that defeats the entire point of Goldside.

 

How?  If you want to start there and play as a native Praetorian for however long you want.  You still can.  Allowing Primals to "infiltrate" Praetoria and run content there doesn't defeat anything.  It gives you more people to team with.  That's the point.  Same goes for allowing bluesiders to run any content they want redside.  Nobody's arm is being twisted to go there and do that.   The entire purpose of that would just be making more people available, potentially, to team with, as well as giving characters, no matter where they start, access to more content.

 

And like I said, I am not against other changes to improve Praetoria, but people need to be realistic about what it would accomplish based on the example we have of redside.   And I think the devs, wondering where best to spend their limited volunteer time... would probably be thinking the same thing.

[Darmian]

How? The entire point of Goldside is to experience the story AS a Praetorian.  That's it. Allowing Primals to "infiltrate" in the way you describe turns a side into a zone, and that's going backwards.  That doesn't seem to me to give you more options but reduces the "native" Praetorian population further.  This looks like a solution at first sight but I believe, and it's only my opinion mind, that it simply means Blue will swallow up Gold. 

 

And Blue/Red can already do every Gold arc/mission (apart from the repeatables) via ouro, something Golds cannot do in reverse.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Darmian

[golstat2003]

16 hours ago, Darmian said:

In an ideal world, yes.  But you instantly run the danger of out levelling the existing content of Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis, and the story there is actually the main point of it, more so than Paragon or Rogue Isles.

 

Plus would you ever have adequate population there to be able to actually run it.? lol

[MTeague]

9 hours ago, Hew said:

I have run it on teams. Its interesting, if you have some go undercover, and some straight contact, you can see a LOT of content in short order.

 

However, you REALLY get screwed on outleveling contacts. Especially on a team, way worse than solo... 😕

Goldside is what taught me:  I joined a team!   Menu -> Options -> MIscellaneous -> NO XP.  immediately on joining a team. 

Does mean I might lag behind some of the teams level, but even if I know I *could* go back and do some missions via Ouroborous, I vastly prefer doing them legitly at level content. 

[MTeague]

9 hours ago, tidge said:

Arcs that rely on the 'total destruction' would have to be altered to be "what if? / Ouroboros" types ortweaked to simply be one-off examples of "Angry Hamidon" or as a result of general "escaping chaos in Praetoria"

That's not all that far fetched. 

We never SEE complete rampant DE destruction on a planetary scale all humans turned into nachos and munched upon. 

We're TOLD about it, by NPC's who could be working off of inaccurate / incomplete information, who mght just be wrong.

 

It could easily be spun to "there was, in fact, a giant multi-continent push.  Approximately 2/3 of Praetorian Earth's population died. Not 100%, but 66% is still enough to scare the bejeeesus out of people, and if there's a dimensional portal over there to Primal Earth, I could still see a mass stampede of refugees saying "Nope, I don't care if maybe Hamidon stopped, NOT taking that kind of chance EVER again. I'm getting the HELL out of Dodge."

 

That could leave varied pockets of humanity struggling to recover and reconnect civilization in other places around Prae Earth that we *could* do things with later. 

[huang3721]

My hunch is whatever makes the blue side attractive is not available in the red/gold side. Therefore most of player base go to blue. Assuming the future rework aims to lure more players, future contents may turn gold/red similar to blue, eg. Lower difficulty level, more farmable missions, etc. I wonder if the current gold/red side players will appreciate the change aside from giving more opportunity to team up. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I like the content of Goldside but to me it has two really awful, fundamental, flaws.

 

Firstly, Cole is portrayed as a monstrous control-freak who will stop at nothing to protect his people even to the point of nuking them to death. Yet, he is intelligent, as are the team that he's assembled to run Praetoria. His biggest issue is the Phamidon - and yet in being aware of P-Hamidon he also knows of Primal Earth and the heroes there who regularly beat down their own version. So instead of approaching Primals and saying "give us a hand" he effectively goes to war with the Primals to maintain his grip on his own kingdom, and eventually loses everything in a moment of hyperbolic vitriol. We aren't given any sensible logic why this should be and yet here we are.

 

Secondly, and utterly unforgivable, is the way that Calvin Scott is treated by the writers. The players spend 20 levels getting to believe they are working for some great plan, then exploring Primal earth for 30 and then suddenly, totally out of the blue, during an incarnate arc, Calvin Scott is revealed to be insane, deluded, believing he was married to Mother Mayhem. It's like three bloody lines that ruins the entire story. First time I saw that I was "WTF" and metaphorically waiting for the other boot to drop but that really was it. It was completely shoddy, deliberately uninspiring writing and totally dissed mental health issues in an age when we know so much more about them. I honestly wonder who signed off on it because I struggle to understand it today.

 

Praetoria could have been amazing but the whole thing was completed so shoddily (remember the dreadful accidental launch?) that I believe it was rushed to release and needed a lot more polishing.

 

What would go some way to fixing it would be to give a far more sympathetic post-Cole wrap to him, and a proper continuation of Calvin Scotts story, which could be tragic with pathos to knock Wretch's arc into the weeds (Where the hell dd Scott even go after that?) and also give players who begin their careers there some reason to remain bonded to their home of Praetorial whatever their loyalties to Cole or Scott.

 

On live, I created the Praetorian Imperial Secret Service (you can work out the acronym) SG which attempted in RP to address some of those issues, trying to maintain Cole's over-arching vision for his Empire while decrying his methods. It came up with some interesting stuff but of course was entirely internalized within our small group.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

His biggest issue is the Phamidon - and yet in being aware of P-Hamidon he also knows of Primal Earth and the heroes there who regularly beat down their own version.

In Tyrant's defense, Praetorian Hamidon is an entirely different problem.  Bear in mind, he was fully willing to invade Primal Earth despite it having a Hamidon too, and was completely unconcerned with that.  Honestly, IMO, the biggest error in judgement he made had more to do with his hubris and his keeping people like Mother Mayhem, Chimera, and Neuron in charge.

 

Calvin Scott, on the other hand, yeah, that was just disastrously bad writing.  They set up a "twist" in which the only people who believed the lie to be true were the players.  Not the player characters, not any of the NPCs, but just us, the players, and then thought it was so clever to "reveal" something that nobody in-universe had ever believed to be true in the first place.

[Darmian]

9 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Calvin Scott, on the other hand, yeah, that was just disastrously bad writing.  They set up a "twist" in which the only people who believed the lie to be true were the players.  Not the player characters, not any of the NPCs, but just us, the players, and then thought it was so clever to "reveal" something that nobody in-universe had ever believed to be true in the first place.

 

Well, frankly the "facts" I think weren't the issue IMO, but the reveal was. Scooping into the narrative we don't know if any of the Resistance NPCs knew or didn't know so we can't say no one ever believed it to be true because it's never mentioned. However, right now it could be backfilled a bit with a few missions by HC that foreshadow that and ease you into that reveal.  Which was still brutal. It was badly shown, but you could meta that by saying a vestige of Mayhem's cruelty was lingering in Aurora so that she had no empathy for the man.  Anyway.

[Murcielago]

Nothing, Goldside is perfect. Emperor Cole our Lord and Savior has made a utopia that needs no improving. Any other suggestion is heresy of the highest order and should immediately be punished. 

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Murcielago said:

Nothing, Goldside is perfect. Emperor Cole our Lord and Savior has made a utopia that needs no improving. Any other suggestion is heresy of the highest order and should immediately be punished. 

The Emperor can hardly complain when the citizens ask for more Utopia!

[Murcielago]

Just now, Darmian said:

The Emperor can hardly complain when the citizens ask for more Utopia!

Emperor's got a fever, and the only cure is more Utopia.

[Scarlet Shocker]

19 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

Nothing, Goldside is perfect. Emperor Cole our Lord and Savior has made a utopia that needs no improving. Any other suggestion is heresy of the highest order and should immediately be punished. 

 

HAIL COLE!