Masterminds can Tank.

[JJDrakken]

I had a tank who was (10 lvls lower then my 50 MM), complain that I can't tank stop tanking mobs of the team I was leading..... Yet I was taking little to no dmg. On my Merc/Pain.  As someone who played MMs and helped Castle with tests on them.  They can tank, here is a great build example.

 

Tankermind - Robotics - Force Field.mxd

[SmalltalkJava]

yes they can tank.  I've never tanked on incarnate stuff, I've never actually done any incarnate stuff.  But I've tanked quite a few teams on my Demons/Nature and Beasts/Nature MM's at level 50.      It can get a little crazy due to the pets being in the same aoe zone as I am since they aren't ranged, but with Entangling Aura nothing in melee range fights back that much.      I love me some Tankerminds.  

 

Nice Def and Resists that you have going there.

 

 

 

edit -   

PS.  Thanks for that build.  I have a Bots/FF at 50, But i've never actually done a build with him.  I just kept putting it off.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by SmalltalkJava

[JJDrakken]

Those should be higher, I see you didn't have Hover on.

[DarkWings]

How do you pull AVs without your pets getting in the way especially in incarnate trials? When I try to pull Nightstar or Siege in BAF, pets just attack everything. I could just use goto or stay and make sure they are in Bodyguard range but that seems like a hassle if a tank could pull better with taunt.

[SeraphimKensai]

I swear though they need a taunt built in. I was using my thugs/time and Hopkins was running from my 16 henchmen so he didn't get a gang beating.

[Force Redux]

11 hours ago, DarkWings said:

How do you pull AVs without your pets getting in the way especially in incarnate trials? When I try to pull Nightstar or Siege in BAF, pets just attack everything. I could just use goto or stay and make sure they are in Bodyguard range but that seems like a hassle if a tank could pull better with taunt.

Put pets in Passive mode until ready for them to jump into the mosh pit.

[Wavicle]

Just surviving the damage is not tanking.

 

MMs do not have AoE Taunts and therefore cannot tank.

 

Unless they take the Pool Power called Provoke or the Taunt aura in the Hybrid Incarnate powers.

 

 

 

Taking point is not tanking. Every AT can take point.

 

[JJDrakken]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Just surviving the damage is not tanking.

 

MMs do not have AoE Taunts and therefore cannot tank.

 

Unless they take the Pool Power called Provoke or the Taunt aura in the Hybrid Incarnate powers.

 

 

 

Taking point is not tanking. Every AT can take point.

 

 

ROFL, look at that Build: Provoke.  Also, my pets can normally pull some serious aggro off of  folks, so long not effected Taunt of a Brute or Tank. Specific Pets can do extra things.

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I swear though they need a taunt built in. I was using my thugs/time and Hopkins was running from my 16 henchmen so he didn't get a gang beating.

 

18 hours ago, DarkWings said:

How do you pull AVs without your pets getting in the way especially in incarnate trials? When I try to pull Nightstar or Siege in BAF, pets just attack everything. I could just use goto or stay and make sure they are in Bodyguard range but that seems like a hassle if a tank could pull better with taunt.

 

Bodyguard Mode: Here use this Macro: /macro BG "petcom_all Follow Defensive"

 

Power Pool: Provoke for Taunt. 

[StrikerFox]

Vaguely remember Paragon Studios devs mentioned MMs were meant to be the tank class of CoV. Not Brutes. There was some bizarre Hami Raid strategy where MMs would hold aggro by sending streams of pets to their doom.

[JJDrakken]

4 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Vaguely remember Paragon Studios devs mentioned MMs were meant to be the tank class of CoV. Not Brutes. There was some bizarre Hami Raid strategy where MMs would hold aggro by sending streams of pets to their doom.

 

You are correct. Pets do have a built in Taunt, not crazy strong(Well Thugs Brute is good). But yes, they were intended to be able to cover all aspects if a person wanted too. BUT they were very slow in putting out more Primary options for the player base, sadly.  Now MM Pets recharge super fast, yes you can super spam em out for stuff like that.

Edited June 20, 2021 by JJDrakken

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, JJDrakken said:

 

ROFL, look at that Build: Provoke. 

 

If taking Provoke makes you a tank then every AT can tank.

[Onlyasandwich]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

every AT can tank

 

Pretty much, I think!

 

Obviously ATs with better survivability will do this better, but it is true that anyone can tank with Provoke if they can survive well enough to use it.

 

They won't tank as well as someone with built-in taunt effects, but it works.

[JJDrakken]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

If taking Provoke makes you a tank then every AT can tank.

 

That's going help mitigate more aggro to you, which in turn goes to your pets. Do you not know how they work?  This still seems to reiterate my theory that all these folks spending time farming on the forums for points, don't actually play in the game.

Edited June 20, 2021 by JJDrakken

[Chaos String]

The issue with provoke is that against a level 54 AV, you have to slot it AND kind of spam it to reliably keep aggro.  While managing your pets and keeping the buffs/debuffs/heals going.

 

Doable, but not optimal.  I suggest that for dedicated aggro management, Tanks and Brutes are fine.

 

But for a tankmage, in the sense of leading the charge while doing crazy DPS and applying buffs, debuffs and heals all the while?   MMs are awesome.

[Wavicle]

49 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

That's going help mitigate more aggro to you, which in turn goes to your pets. Do you not know how they work?  This still seems to reiterate my theory that all these folks spending time farming on the forums for points, don't actually play in the game.

 

Yes, I understand the concept of MM tanking. I'm not saying it's a bad way to play, just that it doesn't make MMs tanks any more than anyone else.

[Chaos String]

9 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Vaguely remember Paragon Studios devs mentioned MMs were meant to be the tank class of CoV. Not Brutes. There was some bizarre Hami Raid strategy where MMs would hold aggro by sending streams of pets to their doom.

I remember being part of one of those tests.  We would target the nucleus, hide behind a rock spire, summon and when called, order them to attack.

 

It ...didn't... really work well.

[Maelwys]

On 6/21/2021 at 1:49 AM, Chaos String said:

I remember being part of one of those tests.  We would target the nucleus, hide behind a rock spire, summon and when called, order them to attack.

 

It ...didn't... really work well.

Now all I can think about is oceans of multicoloured dots, a huge pile of corpses and Back Alley Brawler wondering why the Dark Miasma guys are asking for someone to shoot an Oil Slick Arrow at them.
 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Maelwys

[plainguy]

On 6/19/2021 at 1:33 PM, DarkWings said:

How do you pull AVs without your pets getting in the way especially in incarnate trials? When I try to pull Nightstar or Siege in BAF, pets just attack everything. I could just use goto or stay and make sure they are in Bodyguard range but that seems like a hassle if a tank could pull better with taunt.

I would spam stay or goto before the fix.. I would just keep moving them around.. Of course now with the fix it tons better..

[plainguy]

I was able to tank on my Robot Traps for sure.. 
 

[plainguy]

On 6/18/2021 at 8:56 PM, JJDrakken said:

I had a tank who was (10 lvls lower then my 50 MM), complain that I can't tank stop tanking mobs of the team I was leading..... Yet I was taking little to no dmg. On my Merc/Pain.  As someone who played MMs and helped Castle with tests on them.  They can tank, here is a great build example.

 

Tankermind - Robotics - Force Field.mxd 4.74 kB · 22 downloads

Some people don't get it. They just do not get the game mechanics... They jump on the forums.. Look at a build.. They think it is great.. But don't realize it sucks because the poster didn't either.. Again because they didn't understand game mechanics and don't get what 45% is important..   So you have this perpetual cycle of suck going around from people that don't have a clue. 

Simple example.. Not going to mention the poster.. But they posted up a build about basically Alpha striking with a bunch of procs and in theory it should kill everyone.. 
I asked / comment after looking at the build, thinking I might be missing something, because the thread blew up with a bunch of accolades and fan fare about the build.  I stated you have no defenses and in this game NPC attack back even if you Alpha strike them. How do you survive the their attacks. The response well you need to have luck inspirations. The poster then admits the shortcomings and expands on explaining its theorycraft and you should put IO procs in moderation how it would work with a duo buffing.. ETC.. 

But if you read the initial post it clearly wasn't painted that way. Nonetheless I knew being negative would have caused the fanbase to attack me so I didn't push the subject.  

 

[Crysis]

I think Sentinels and MM's share something in common, even though created years apart.  In both cases, the Devs were clearly aware of the ability to "tank mage" them if they didn't greatly nerf their abilities in some cases.  Since this is a game ultimately about maxxing damage output (either via buffing, debuffing, recharge or all the above) the simplest approach was the damage modifiers for AT.  Sent's had their aggro/target limits further nerfed and MM's had their Endurance costs penalized as well.  I think this is why we've waited so long to see some of the desired improvements to MM's ever manifest, and I'm a bit concerned Sents will wait just as long for same reason.

 

Tankerminding has been a playstyle since MM's were introduced, so it's no surprise to read about it here.  Between even basic ability to pull aggro and the debuffs native to most MM secondaries, coupled with Defensive BG mode, you are basically a resistance-capped Tank with low Health.  I don't even bother with Presence pool on my /Time MM's as Times Juncture does just fine pulling aggro when jumping into the spawn....and given slow slotting, holding aggro as well.

[Jim Talon]

Ok, so I skipped ahead of all the comments, but, I would say, that if you can tank, you should start the team, saying that you can tank.  If I join a team with the guy saying he can tank, then i will believe him, until we get team wiped.

 

[tidge]

I definitely agree that Masterminds were the "Tankers" of City of Villains; anyone who claims that "Brutes" were intended to fill that role is confused (understandably, but they are still wrong).

 

Masterminds do have to work much harder to tank (I am including build choices in the 'work') and typically can't just turn on a toggle that generates aggro and claim to be L33T T4NK3R. Generally (some of this was written above):

• A MM has to be paying attention to the AI stance and physical positioning of the Henchmen
• A MM needs to be aware of the assorted debuffs they have available
• A MM with Provoke (from the Presence Pool) needs to have is lotted (Accuracy first, Taunt second, plus Recharge to spam) because it is NOT an auto-hit like Taunt and Confront are. Investing in an actually set (I like Mocking Beratement at 5x or 6x slots) is worthwhile.

It should be re-emphasized that part of what makes Masterminds able to "tank" is the pool of Health provided by Henchmen in Bodyguard mode... so you will need to have some investment in Henchmen Defenses and Resistances as well. In my experience, the most problematic enemies in the game for a Mastermind to 'tank' (ignoring non-Incarnate level shifted enemies) are those that have NASTY AoE (because losing all the henchmen means losing most of your Health) or large spawns that simply will not group (because many MMs have some sort of AoE that can draw attention).

[Wavicle]

Masterminds, despite having Bodyguard added to them a year after release, were clearly NOT the "Tankers" of City of Villains; anyone who claims that they were intended to fill that role is confused.

 

The fact that they CAN tank when they take a pool power Taunt just shows they are tough, that's all.

[Arbegla]

Masterminds can take a hit, there is no doubt about that. The other nice thing about Masterminds, is that the pets ignore the aggro caps. This was done so that the pets were still useful in itrials, but the result is that pets can aggro basically an unlimited number of mobs. They themselves can't take a hit, but a skilled Mastermind can control and herd mobs around to basically 'tank' much more then a Brute or Tanker can, by sheer fact that they, mostly their their pets, can direct aggro away from other ATs.