Sentinels. Why???

[arcane]

21 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Nope. It's currently in my build but I never use it and I'm about to respec out of it. Any extra mitigation I need I get fully from Rebirth +regen and the Tank AT IO +damres and +absorb procs.

Yeah Rebirth would do the trick too but I’m using Ageless Core at the moment. Can’t recall how necessary that was. But yeah awesome toon, but although I don’t think I’ve died yet... the health bar isn’t as immovable as my Invuln tanker or - after it’s already moved down a big chunk - my SR tanker.

[ZemX]

57 minutes ago, Naraka said:

We aren't talking about caps, we're talking about base numbers. They both get the same resistance from Dark Embrace, for example.

 

That said, I don't really know how sentinels compare to stalkers and scrappers. I never bothered to dig into it 

 

So for Scrappers vs. Stalkers it's both base modifiers and caps that are the same for resistance and defense.  Slightly higher base hit points on Scrappers.  Secondary-wise, most Stalker armor sets got rearranged so that they both had room for Hide but also kept most or all of the same defense/res values in powers.  Some effects just got distributed to other powers.  Hide gives a very good suppressible defense (particularly AoE) and a much smaller non-suppressible defense bonus.  Nice place for defense IOs like Kismet, Shield Wall, and LotG:Recharge.

 

Sentinels appear to have the same base and max Hit Points as Stalkers.  But they have slightly lower defense and resistance modifiers (if City of Data is accurate).  Same resistance caps (75%).   On numbers alone, their survivability is very close to Stalkers (which is itself better than most people probably think).  It's more difficult to quantify how much survivability you gain by being able to stay out of (or mostly out of) melee but it's not nothing and I imagine it can mean de-prioritizing melee defense bonuses in favor of ranged/AoE (or some other bonus) without being too big a compromise of overall survivability.

 

It's interesting to me that Sentinels get compared so often to Blasters when their closer competition is Scrappers and Stalkers.  Sentinels can't do Blaster damage for the same reason melee damage ATs can't do Blaster damage.  Everybody should understand that.  If they got anywhere close to Blaster damage output levels, they'd have obsoleted two other ATs entirely on the way.

[UberGuy]

33 minutes ago, ZemX said:

But they have slightly lower defense and resistance modifiers (if City of Data is accurate)

 

It is. CoD's display data is extracted directly from game files. We have all that powers-related data on the clients for Real Numbers in-game display purposes - they publish the client with the same raw power data used by the servers to actually manage and execute our powers. The site is currently up-to-date with the live Homecoming release version of that data. 

[chi1701]

37 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

So for Scrappers vs. Stalkers it's both base modifiers and caps that are the same for resistance and defense.  Slightly higher base hit points on Scrappers.  Secondary-wise, most Stalker armor sets got rearranged so that they both had room for Hide but also kept most or all of the same defense/res values in powers.  Some effects just got distributed to other powers.  Hide gives a very good suppressible defense (particularly AoE) and a much smaller non-suppressible defense bonus.  Nice place for defense IOs like Kismet, Shield Wall, and LotG:Recharge.

 

Sentinels appear to have the same base and max Hit Points as Stalkers.  But they have slightly lower defense and resistance modifiers (if City of Data is accurate).  Same resistance caps (75%).   On numbers alone, their survivability is very close to Stalkers (which is itself better than most people probably think).  It's more difficult to quantify how much survivability you gain by being able to stay out of (or mostly out of) melee but it's not nothing and I imagine it can mean de-prioritizing melee defense bonuses in favor of ranged/AoE (or some other bonus) without being too big a compromise of overall survivability.

 

It's interesting to me that Sentinels get compared so often to Blasters when their closer competition is Scrappers and Stalkers.  Sentinels can't do Blaster damage for the same reason melee damage ATs can't do Blaster damage.  Everybody should understand that.  If they got anywhere close to Blaster damage output levels, they'd have obsoleted two other ATs entirely on the way.

 

If im assuming your meaning stalkers and scrappers being made obsolete, then probably also need to add both keldian classes into it as well makes 4 ats, fully human keldians are more close to sentinels.

[Blackbird71]

I think we've gotten waaay off topic, in a thread that was just a troll to begin with.  Probably time to leave this one alone and take the Scrapper vs. Stalker talk to the AT forum.

[Murcielago]

I like my Archery/Bio Sent. Its a different playstyle and will absolutely out survive a Blaster 9 out of 10 times on harder targets. 

[Zhym]

The thread has gone a little off the rails, but what the heck, I'll bite on the original question.  It's not like I can log in and play at the moment. :)

 

For me, "why Sentinel?" was that it was the only AT that fit my character concept: The Bureaucrat.  As a bureaucrat, his main feature is implacable immovability.  In other words: invulnerability.  But I also saw him as a secret agent type with a gun.  Well, the only way you get guns is in a blaster-type AT.  So The Bureaucrat became an AR/Inv sentinel.

 

And...he's not all that fun to play, honestly.  Maybe it's because I've been spoiled by my DP/MC blaster, who is amazingly fun to play.  The Bureaucrat is only level 20 ATM, so it's not completely fair to compare them, but even at the same levels, The Bureaucrat just seems...lacking.  I don't think it's purely a matter of damage output, either.  I think it's more that it's so easy to build defenses and resistance with IO sets now that a defense-based set just doesn't add to the fun value the way another damage-based set does.  Or who knows—maybe if I leveled him all the way to 50 he'd get some powers that would make him more fun (besides, invulnerability doesn't really live up to its name until the higher levels anyway).  But at level 20?  All he does is make me miss my DP/MC blaster.

 

YMMV, of course.  Lots of people enjoy their sentinels, and good for them.  But my foray into the AT hasn't been entirely satisfying.

[ZemX]

7 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

I think we've gotten waaay off topic

 

We're not off topic.  I'm talking about Stalkers and Scrappers because they are relevant to Sentinel balance, as I made clear in my post.   This is not a Scrapper vs Stalker discussion that needs to be taken anywhere else.

[PhaseZero]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:56 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

This is one of my main issues with the direction things have been going. I miss when the only difference that existed for a given power came from AT Modifiers. But alas, that ship, too, has sailed.

If we are talking the scaling at the start of the game I believe it is generally correct but takes into account the inherent ability now. A sent does the damage mentioned at the start of the game basically a scale 7. So in theory the class should do about 70 to 75 percent of the dmg of a blaster. The main issue is the blaster defensive have become over tuned with gear and status buff with an incarnate. With that said the whole game is the end game. Incarnate content is normally the easier content. If you think about it if blasters  and corruptors could not defense cap with gear no one would be complaining about sents dmg. Status protection also is a very expensive stat that was weighed heavy during live. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, ZemX said:

We're not off topic.  I'm talking about Stalkers and Scrappers because they are relevant to Sentinel balance, as I made clear in my post.   This is not a Scrapper vs Stalker discussion that needs to be taken anywhere else.

 

Let's roll with this a second. If Sents are cruising around with stalker level mitigation coupled with the ability to always fight from range which equals more mitigation, where should their damage levels be? Obviously not up at blaster levels as their only mitigation is range. Nor brute levels for that matter.

 

That places them in the tank levels of damage output.

 

Tanks are the aggro management set and stalkers are the boss killers, with scrappers and brutes in betwixt, so what do we do to get sentinels to tank damage output but with their own identity apart from "protected ranged damage dealer" other than just buff their AT dam mod and call it a day?

Edited June 22, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

If we are talking the scaling at the start of the game I believe it is generally correct but takes into account the inherent ability now. A sent does the damage mentioned at the start of the game basically a scale 7. So in theory the class should do about 70 to 75 percent of the dmg of a blaster. The main issue is the blaster defensive have become over tuned with gear and status buff with an incarnate. With that said the whole game is the end game. Incarnate content is normally the easier content. If you think about it if blasters  and corruptors could not defense cap with gear no one would be complaining about sents dmg. Status protection also is a very expensive stat that was weighed heavy during live. 

 

No, I was specifically talking about how armor set Y is a different set amongst ATs, as with SR thanks to Master Brawler, or how SR Evasion has a taunt aura for brutes/tanks but not scraps/stalkers, or how attack X doesn't share the exact same dam/end/recharge values across all ATs.

[Blackbird71]

7 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

With that said the whole game is the end game.

 

What?

[UberGuy]

From old discussions, I think Sentinels were supposed to be around Scrapper levels of DPS, but with more of a (limited range) AoE focus. They're not as durable as other melees, because they do get to hang back.

They're definitely not at those target DPS levels, and and I am sure CPH knows it. But no idea when they'll get attention again.

Edited June 22, 2021 by UberGuy

[MetalSiryn]

One idea for the Sentinels....of course it's just an idea.  Give them slightly more damage than blasters, but keep the shorter range.  Why?  The shorter range, the more damage they do and more accuracy they have, until they reach a minimum optimal range, which would be just outside of melee range, at around 10-20 yards.  Of course, this also leads to them needing the extra defense/resistance since they're inside of ranged attackers.

 

I've been calling the Sentinels 'Shotgunners' since I learned of their slight less range, but having armor like a scrapper/stalker.  Let the Blasters be the snipers and long range.  Let the Sentinels have medium range.

 

Of course, that one post that said 'let Sentinels have slightly less damage, like 90% of Blasters' is also a good argument, but...again, just an idea.

[Pixie_Knight]

2 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

That was all before any kind of real numbers, so all we had were dev comments and the published guide. And  the latter was  really innacurate. (I forget who the published that - I'm sure someone remembers - but they were well known for publishing inaccurate stuff in their guides.) But as far as I know, Stalkers have always had the same base scales as Scrappers on all armor-related modifiers.

 

Regarding the published guides (think it was Brady)... Not only did those give horrible build advise such as "don't take your pets on a mastermind until your in the mid 20's, as I recall, but the useful information it did contain was invalidated within a month due to a patch to fix balance (and bugs).

[PhaseZero]

29 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

What?

If ask that question what is end game you get different answers. because greatest part of COH is it exemplar ability. Level 10 content can be challenge to a person that is 50 and worth while rewards.  When your in a league setting because of the incarnate and caps all a players hard work in building a toon is reduced. For the most part you can have only SO's and be equal to a billion influence toon. So in general this is seen as only a part of the game. So for game play the whole game is end game because it is important rewarding regardless of your vet status.  If you think I meant Storyline than Pandora chapter 5 is the end of the game.  What this has to do with sent is basically for 90 percent of the game they will have status protection and all the benefits that go with it over a blasters. The inherent on a sent is great when fighting AV and EB. and if you went Bio armor the dmg bonus from offense makes up a lot of the dmg difference. 

[PhaseZero]

28 minutes ago, Pixie_Knight said:

 

Regarding the published guides (think it was Brady)... Not only did those give horrible build advise such as "don't take your pets on a mastermind until your in the mid 20's, as I recall, but the useful information it did contain was invalidated within a month due to a patch to fix balance (and bugs).

you might be thinking to linear. I actually did this with a demon MM and it was great till about 18. Than you know what i did? I respec and took my pets. Starting out with pets and no attacks is one kind of boring and 2 the pets are imo weaker than the attacks at lower lvls. I would recommend trying a MM with no pets till 16 to 18ish than respec and take the pets with no attacks and see what you think :).

[Naraka]

52 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

We're not off topic.  I'm talking about Stalkers and Scrappers because they are relevant to Sentinel balance, as I made clear in my post.   This is not a Scrapper vs Stalker discussion that needs to be taken anywhere else.

 

 

It's also good to get a relative standing when talking about balance so knowing the differences between Stalker and Scrapper is also important. 

 

I'm still curious if my suggestion would be outlandish or useless. The most important aspect to me isn't just being balanced, it's mechanically playing differently. The OPs suggestion to just increase damage seems to me to make the AT a scrapper but using ranged blast sets instead of melee.

[PhaseZero]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, I was specifically talking about how armor set Y is a different set amongst ATs, as with SR thanks to Master Brawler, or how SR Evasion has a taunt aura for brutes/tanks but not scraps/stalkers, or how attack X doesn't share the exact same dam/end/recharge values across all ATs.

Thanks for clearing what you mentioned up.  Sents are done differently and I am not sure why other than it was done after live and someone wanted to leave their unique mark. as for SR Evasion this would be AT modifier. I believe the stat modifier does work correctly between brute/tanks, scrapper/stalkers. Stalkers are a threat lvl 2 so would be a little silly for them to have a taunt aura , scrappers technically are not 1 of the 4 tank AT's so they really should not have any taunt aura on any power set.  but ya it really does make it harder to compare the sent secondary with other AT's

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Zhym said:

The thread has gone a little off the rails, but what the heck, I'll bite on the original question.  It's not like I can log in and play at the moment. 🙂

 

For me, "why Sentinel?" was that it was the only AT that fit my character concept: The Bureaucrat.  As a bureaucrat, his main feature is implacable immovability.  In other words: invulnerability.  But I also saw him as a secret agent type with a gun.  Well, the only way you get guns is in a blaster-type AT.  So The Bureaucrat became an AR/Inv sentinel.

 

And...he's not all that fun to play, honestly.  Maybe it's because I've been spoiled by my DP/MC blaster, who is amazingly fun to play.  The Bureaucrat is only level 20 ATM, so it's not completely fair to compare them, but even at the same levels, The Bureaucrat just seems...lacking.  I don't think it's purely a matter of damage output, either.  I think it's more that it's so easy to build defenses and resistance with IO sets now that a defense-based set just doesn't add to the fun value the way another damage-based set does.  Or who knows—maybe if I leveled him all the way to 50 he'd get some powers that would make him more fun (besides, invulnerability doesn't really live up to its name until the higher levels anyway).  But at level 20?  All he does is make me miss my DP/MC blaster.

 

YMMV, of course.  Lots of people enjoy their sentinels, and good for them.  But my foray into the AT hasn't been entirely satisfying.

 

If you're up to giving him a second try... You might have a better time with Dual Pistol/Willpower. WP Sents are tough enough to handle quite a lot and DP is one of the better-done damage sets. 

[Pixie_Knight]

14 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

you might be thinking to linear. I actually did this with a demon MM and it was great till about 18. Than you know what i did? I respec and took my pets. Starting out with pets and no attacks is one kind of boring and 2 the pets are imo weaker than the attacks at lower lvls. I would recommend trying a MM with no pets till 16 to 18ish than respec and take the pets with no attacks and see what you think :).

 

I do take the attacks as well, sometimes. Not always though. As I recall, the official CoH/CoV guide suggested the "best" way to build a mastermind is to take the personal attacks, load up on pool powers for additional attacks, and ignore your secondary for the most part. Do this until you can do the first respec trial, get your respec, and use it to swap out all your offensive abilities/pool powers for your pets and secondary. But don't take the pet upgrade abilities until at least level 35.

 

Then again, the advice for blasters was doubling down on Statesman's Stupid Blaster Tricks blog post when the original blaster inherent was added. And it actually suggested scrappers should ignore their secondary in favor of grabbing the Presence pool right away.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

Thanks for clearing what you mentioned up.  Sents are done differently and I am not sure why other than it was done after live and someone wanted to leave their unique mark. as for SR Evasion this would be AT modifier. I believe the stat modifier does work correctly between brute/tanks, scrapper/stalkers. Stalkers are a threat lvl 2 so would be a little silly for them to have a taunt aura , scrappers technically are not 1 of the 4 tank AT's so they really should not have any taunt aura on any power set.  but ya it really does make it harder to compare the sent secondary with other AT's

 

Negative. Taunt on Evasion is power based not AT based. Tanks/Brutes have it, Scraps/Stalks don't. In my head, all powers should be identical across the board. All sets as well. Diversity would be derived from AT Mods and Inherents.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, MetalSiryn said:

Of course, that one post that said 'let Sentinels have slightly less damage, like 90% of Blasters' is also a good argument, but...again, just an idea.

 

Isn't that about where the scalars are now?  Sentinal scalar = 0.95, Blaster scalar = 1.125, 0.95/1.125 = ~0.844, so going to 90% (as I believe others here pointed out) is a marginal improvement.

 

27 minutes ago, PhaseZero said:

If ask that question what is end game you get different answers. because greatest part of COH is it exemplar ability. Level 10 content can be challenge to a person that is 50 and worth while rewards.  When your in a league setting because of the incarnate and caps all a players hard work in building a toon is reduced. For the most part you can have only SO's and be equal to a billion influence toon. So in general this is seen as only a part of the game. So for game play the whole game is end game because it is important rewarding regardless of your vet status.  If you think I meant Storyline than Pandora chapter 5 is the end of the game.  What this has to do with sent is basically for 90 percent of the game they will have status protection and all the benefits that go with it over a blasters. The inherent on a sent is great when fighting AV and EB. and if you went Bio armor the dmg bonus from offense makes up a lot of the dmg difference. 

Ah, OK, I think I get your point.  I think I read your initial statement backwards, that you were claiming the "end game," (i.e., 50+ incarnate) was the whole [purpose] of the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

For the possible questions to the last post:

 

All SR users would then get the choice between PB and MB.

All SR users would have a taunt component on Evasion. You get into range for that to work, you taunt. Full stop. The value of the taunt would be adjusted by the AT Mod.

SR would have the same power order for all ATs.

 

Edit: And, yes, for the blast sets, either all would get the snipe or none would.

 

This would make it FAR easier to balance all the archetypes on both the inter and intra-AT fronts.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

SR would have the same power order for all ATs.

 

Where do Stalkers get Hide from?  Free power they start with in addition to the normal T1 secondary?