So, procs...

[Naraka]

Just another outlier idea that I was thinking, since considering add-on damage such as from procs is more rare to get across the board...

 

...what if they actually did decide to nerf procs quite a bit (exactly how, I'm not focusing on in this particular post) and while they did so, they looked at other means of adding "proc damage" buffs throughout powersets?  Shock Therapy has a kinda-proc debuff/control power it casts on enemies and Plant Manipulation has Toxins that add toxic damage to all your attacks, what if they changed more powers (ally buffs and self buffs) either to assist balancing powersets (FF and Sonic buff giving some damage procs or giving Martial Arts mechanics to add proc damage and/or debuffs to its attacks) or to just diversify buffs that feel stagnant in the upper-levels.  So reduce proc-bomb builds but enable proc-bomb teams, so to speak.

[Jitsurei]

17 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Just another outlier idea that I was thinking, since considering add-on damage such as from procs is more rare to get across the board...

 

...what if they actually did decide to nerf procs quite a bit (exactly how, I'm not focusing on in this particular post) and while they did so, they looked at other means of adding "proc damage" buffs throughout powersets?  Shock Therapy has a kinda-proc debuff/control power it casts on enemies and Plant Manipulation has Toxins that add toxic damage to all your attacks, what if they changed more powers (ally buffs and self buffs) either to assist balancing powersets (FF and Sonic buff giving some damage procs or giving Martial Arts mechanics to add proc damage and/or debuffs to its attacks) or to just diversify buffs that feel stagnant in the upper-levels.  So reduce proc-bomb builds but enable proc-bomb teams, so to speak.

Yeah, electricity manipulation has the t9 that adds special effects to the buffed players attacks. I could see adding something like that to other sets but with damage.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Arli said:

I have a rad/ice tanker that can clear +2 x8 groups in under ten seconds (without using ground zero or my judgment). This is because of procs. This is also why I feel it's pointless to use a brute for anything other than farming - with procs, tankers can easily out-perform brutes in regards to survivability and damage output. Meanwhile, brutes have to compensate for lesser resistances/defenses and may not be able to proc out builds as easily as a tanker.

 

Do you not use the same proc builds on a brute?  My brute builds are more proc dependent than my tank builds since they're better bang for the buck than damage enhancements.

[Penguin]

Why not, instead of nerfing, add more procs and options, instead? Why not have procs that are suitable for fast recharging powers, too, for instance? I can see an argument for balancing them in PVP, but I think procs have helped make difficult runs in PVE more relaxed, since the builds don't need to be as strict for success.

 

[FreedomFarmFranchise]

20 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

For long posts, I suggest drafting (and frequently saving) them in a program like Notepad, first. Helps to avoid them getting eaten by forum mishaps. (I've been there!)

I actually did copy/save basically a few lines before I was ready to post, opened my 1Note app to paste it, got distracted engaging with my wife & friends I was with irl, then went to finalize my post, causing me too again ctrl-c something else so when I went to reach for my mouse, I instead hit the side <bckwrd >frwrd buttons. Poof everything gone, and my ctrl-v is now a dmg% from a current proc'd out power.

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, Penguin said:

Why not, instead of nerfing, add more procs and options, instead? Why not have procs that are suitable for fast recharging powers, too, for instance? I can see an argument for balancing them in PVP, but I think procs have helped make difficult runs in PVE more relaxed, since the builds don't need to be as strict for success.

 

 

Procs actually balance really well in most forms of PvP. (Mainly because AoE is not really used there.) Plenty of sets that would otherwise not be viable are competitive thanks to single-target damage procs and -res procs pushing them over the DPS threshold required to get a kill. (In 1v1 melee "Fightclub" fights especially.) The removal/global nerfing of damage procs would drastically reduce the number of viable sets. (The opposite goal of game balance.)

 

Back when we first discussed this with Powerhouse, he floated the idea of increasing the PvP damage scalars for melee ATs to compensate for any possible proc nerf. (I.e. If procs boosted meleers DPS by ~100, then the damage scale would be buffed up by the equivalent number to allow for +100DPS on the backend.) This solution didn't prove to be tenable, however, because not every set benefits from procs equally. Claws, the current #1 brute set, benefits from 5/6-slotting procs, whereas Energy Melee, the #1 Scrapper set, doesn't rely on procs so much.

 

This is what would happen:

 

Step 1: Nerf/remove procs.

Result: Energy Melee becomes significantly better than Claws.

Step 2: Buff the PvP damage scalars for all melee ATs by x%.

Result: Claws can now kill an opponent. However, Energy Melee is still significantly better than Claws to the same degree it was after Step 1 AND Energy Melee now finds it incredibly easy to kill an opponent.

Final Result: Everyone plays Energy Melee. (Bad balance).

 

I absolutely agree with your idea for adding more proc options. Procs have gone a long way to help bring up underperforming sets. I'd love to see a much more fleshed out proc system in the game, with many more options for proccing powers. (Almost like a second-level IO system, with its own in-game interface explaining how procs work.)

[Galaxy Brain]

21 hours ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Defenders benefitting from damage procs more than Corruptors was debunked here. (And in the follow-up posts by Blackhearted.)

 

One of the first lines there states "we are using inspirations" which throws everything out the window as with enough candy you can overcome anything. It is not a valid comparison to say "oh, this thing that is part of a build is balanced/overcome by consumables" since for 99% of people those are X factors. If you chew enough purples/oranges/reds/etc, there is 0 need for a majority of things you'd actually slot for.

 

While yes, inspirations are a part of the game and you can store them via Email / etc for when you need them before an encounter, as designed they were meant to be limited to your insp slots / random drops / occasional splurge at a store (usually the hosp) if you're in a pickle. They are not meant to be something that you should be 100% reliant on all the time in significant amounts, unlike your character's build which is meant to be your foundation. I can get building to within 1 purple of soft cap as that is something more reliable, but the bullet on "its not accurate to say X compared to Y because it doesn't include inspirations"  is way too variable to account for.

 

For the specific topic of Procs on Defenders compared to Corruptors, in general Defenders get more bang out of them thanks to their higher buff/debuff numbers allowing them to more easily slot personal non-damage stats on top of procs being the same damage regardless of AT, which combined can make defenders more attractive than Corruptors in that regard where the procs can bridge the gap while keeping their support advantages. This is not universal as some sets still greatly benefit from Scourge, but it still appears to be a pervasive opinion.

 

 

On 7/4/2021 at 1:14 PM, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Stated Goal #1 - "Removing dominance of (damage) proc builds"

Damage proc builds (aka "proc monsters") are only dominant if you factor in inspirations. (I.e. using purple insps instead of building for defense, or using red insps instead of slotting for damage.)

 

To your next point, you then go on to say that Procs are a non issue because in order to get the most out of them you need to use insps (OR, outside buffs from allies which are basically the same thing when you boil it down to +Stats). I am confused by this take as it seems you are usually pro-everything (Temps, Boosts, Insps) which by this statement would lead to Procs being dominant given you can use all sorts of X-factor things to circumvent the lost slotting bits.

 

 

On 7/4/2021 at 1:14 PM, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Stated Goal#2 - "Stop non/low damage attacks from being proc-bombs"

I agree that non-damaging attacks such as Infrigidate possibly shouldn't be proccable. But low damage attacks being able to do high damage is fine. It's a building option that costs slots and add diversity to builds. (And, as other experienced players have pointed out, it comes at a tradeoff.) 

 

The only issue with damage procs, is how they perform in high-damage AoE powers such as Burn. But as I mentioned before, that is a power-issue, not a proc issue.

 

Just to be clear - damage procs by themselves are not causing damage creep. They are only causing damage creep when paired with OP powers like burn, or OP things like T4 damage inspirations.

 

Nerfing procs, without first looking at these OP things, would be an over-correction in the worst possible way.

 

Verdict:

No (to low damage powers)

Tentative Yes (to non-damage powers)

Yes (to OP AOE powers)

 

Next steps:

Create a list of these OP AOE powers

 

I 100% agree here tho! A lot of people do not see the forest for the trees when it comes to procs in that it's not just "Procs" that are the issue. Its the ability of WHAT can be procced and to what extent, the PPM formula in relation to the types of powers that benefit the most, ally buffs, etc that all feed into it.

 

The issue is not so much that procs exist, but more that certain sets and powers can WILDLY benefit from them like Infrigidate making Cold Dom have a T3 blast, or Epic Holds surpassing most ST attacks likewise. To me its not even an issue of people loading up everything they can with procs (which 100% comes with a cost) but more that you can have a select few proc-bomb powers on a character and go above and beyond.

 

For the note about data gathered, that is why I linked that post in particular. In that run of testing I pitted an assortment of procs in isolation against each other to measure their impact across a fairly generic build (BS/WP scrapper) where we have a known baseline on SO enhancement. The missions were ran multiple times per slotting option and kept all the baseline values per power as they were with generics, with the addition of the procs which should be very easy to do as 6-slotting a set that include a proc often goes beyond what you could generically slot in terms of values anyway. 

 

Compared to straight debuffs, mez procs, and even the unique +Survival IO's, simply slotting 1 damage proc per power lead to more personal safety for that build where they took noticeably less incoming heat due to faster clears, even moreso when 2 damage procs per power were used. Of course, you can combine all these and be even better as each was done in isolation but it was far from a "proc monster" type of build I would assume most people think of when the term is used. 

To me, that points to Damage Procs being often just better than most other types of procs you could slot which ends up being... I guess kinda boring? Damage procs also vastly outnumber other proc types and are often flat damage which is another "meh" factor, which doesn't cut directly into performance but it does sour the IO system a bit when it boils down to "Slot bonuses, and then slap damage procs on cus theyre better and let you kill faster thus be safer". As to the earlier point, stuff like Achilles / Self Defense IOs are amazing but they also allow you to leverage damage procs even better so to me its kind of a wash.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

It's important to bear this in mind. And it does reflect my own experiences when discussing rebalancing procs with others. High-level players I've spoken to about this (PvPers, Raid Leaders, Speed Runners, etc) do not believe procs should be nerfed. Now, I'm sure there might be some out there who do. But I have yet to meet any. Which isn't surprising. Because the more you know about how this game balances, the more you realise that the PPM system we have right now is mostly excellent. 

 

The audience here can be misleading as TBQH these folks have a different view of balance. PvP is all about fierce competition and getting an edge on your opponent, if there is something that gives you said edge of course folks will clamor for it and tell naysayers to "get good and use it so you're on our level". Similarly, Speed Runners view game balance as such:

 

 

 

If there is anything within "bounds" that allows you to go faster, they will use it. if there were a proc that let you do 9999 damage under a certain condition? Hell yeah, clear times just got faster! 

 

That is not to say they do not care about balance, far from it especially with the PvP crowd + Speedrun categories requiring parameters. Its just that they may have a very particular view on what balance means given what they do.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

Is that the thread in which I examined one of those proc bombs, compared it to traditional IO set slotting with one additional proc and found that the damage output was not, in fact, better when the power had six procs, but also that the hit chance, endurance usage and cycle time were all significantly worse when used as a proc bomb, and that the proc bomb's recharge time (which was already worse than the traditionally slotting) was dependent on the Force Feedback proc in another power, which could miss and drop the proc bomb's performance over time even further?

 

And this is evidence that procs need to be nerfed?  Hm...

 

In this instance, it was Seismic Smash on a Dominator which was used as an example for how even a high-calibur power can be loaded up with Procs and have a net positive on a high-damage AT. As mentioned, in isolation it does give things up but if you have buffs from Set Bonuses, Other IO's like FF "chaining" into it, or even just Inps/Team mates to cover holes it leads to the power being better than if you were to traditionally slot it, with the CAVEAT that you can patch those holes. However, patching the holes can be relatively easy due to a variety of factors, all you need to do is make sure the procced powers are able to reliably use their procs thanks to everything feeding into each other, not just soley rely on the procced out power to do its thing.

 

This is why Proc-Bombs are an issue to me when it comes to stuff like Holds / Infrigidate / etc. They are often either part of already powerful sets that happen to get an extra boost thanks to a few powers they can leverage being proc bombs, on top of certain sets not being able to "join in on the fun" or even certain AT's being disproportionately boosted by them compared to peers which can blur their lines at higher lvl to where one is favored over the other through no merit/fault of their own. 

 

While yes, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence thrown about, when you look at the "a lot of" part that is cause for concern for whatever the subject matter is. On top of results that have been posted, the general complexity of how they work, the EASE OF ACCESS to them being a factor nobody talks about (this was legit a balance on live, as weird as it is), there is something to all this.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Double post to clarify what I believe the problem to be:

 

1) Ease of access to IOs in general, esp the "good" ones, has thrown a big wrench in what is "expected" by those in the know, which also happens to be a bigger population than before thanks to it being 2021 with Reddit, Discord, FB, etc, all able to much more efficiently share tips and tricks. 

 

2) Not all procs / uniques are "equal" in terms of slotting potential or what they do. When comparing say, a chance to Immobilize to a Damage proc.... damage wins, especially since the former is usually on something not as universal.

 

3) Many procs directly feed into Damage Procs in particular, of note are +Rech and -Res procs making them fire more and hit harder. Ally buffs, Temp powers, Inspirations, or even just set bonuses can also "cover" what is lost for many powers that accept a lot of procs that further feeds into them becoming "reliable" instead of "gambles". 

 

4) As noted on point 2, the distribution of certain IO's is not exactly equitable which funnels many people into the damage route, which does cause balance concerns when it blurrs the strengths of AT's / powersets. 

 

Combine all of these and you get meta-defining/shifting trends.

[arcane]

12 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Do you not use the same proc builds on a brute?  My brute builds are more proc dependent than my tank builds since they're better bang for the buck than damage enhancements.

The assumption is a Brute would have less room to invest in offensive slotting than the Tanker if they’re trying to still reach any res caps or def soft caps. Brutes are more likely to pursue defense set bonuses, need defensive pools, etc. Fewer slots to invest = fewer procs. Ofc you could slot the same amount of procs, but your Brute could wind up squishy if only investing as little in defenses as a Tanker needs to.

Edited July 6, 2021 by arcane

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Do you not use the same proc builds on a brute?  My brute builds are more proc dependent than my tank builds since they're better bang for the buck than damage enhancements.

Like right? How can anyone post as this guy you responded to be taken seriously. Like since the dawning of the age of villains, the Brute was well understood to be an AT that did not need a lot of its enhancement slots devoted to raw dmg% boosts. The rage bar alone covers a huge chunk of their total damage buff cap.  Hell one of the things I love about Brute is you can easily just put a couple franken slot set IOs for acc/recharge,and end cost reduction on each attack for leveling, and never suffer blue bar issues even at the levels most others all do just because they do not need to devote their slots to raw dmg.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Just now, arcane said:

The assumption is a Brute would have less room to invest in offensive slotting than the Tanker if they’re trying to still reach any res caps or def soft caps. Fewer slots to invest = fewer procs. Ofc you could slot the same amount of procs, but your Brute could wind up squishy if only investing as little in defenses as a Tanker needs to.

My SS/Regen Brute will keep standing around healing and killing forever while most tanks end up eating sand. A skilled tank player is almost as rare as a skilled blaster player. Like maybe 5% of the total player base on HC are either.

[Cherry]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:52 PM, Jitsurei said:

The same reason people do anything in a game- fun! Further, when I play a defender I am often doing so to help other players, and I don’t expect them to be the ones keeping me alive. Difference of playstyle.

lets be honest here. she means me. im the 1 she tries to keep alive. and i love her.

[Cherry]

23 hours ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Well this just isn't true. I've been quoted more than anyone else in the thread, and have received more emoji reactions (22) than anyone else

is there a badge for this? if not i demand we change this. 

[Cherry]

20 hours ago, Apparition said:

Hi.  I led both Hamidon and Rikti mothership raids for years prior to sunset, I've routinely led raids on Homecoming for the past two years, I was the Hamidon tank in a successful five person Hamidon raid without any temporary powers, and I think damage procs need to be nerfed to the ground.  Nice to meet you.

Can confirm. 

[Cherry]

After reading this entire thread, some of you take this way too seriously and I'm glad I don't team with you.. you would make this game no fun for a player like me, and yes I know I'm the kind of player that would drive you nuts. There is a place for everyone in this game but some of you need to stop acting like elitist bullies and embrace the community as a whole and stop trying to change the way others want to play, or how they want to build. Leave this elitist crap for the PVP threads. 

 

And y'all do realize this dev team is all volunteers, right? Stop demanding things from them and show a bit more gratitude we even have this game back to play.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

My SJ/Ninja stalker that I soloed at +2 x 6 for most of his leveling path( once they get high enough for their ATIOs.) Loves having CC procs in all of his attacks. CC procs are most useful against boss class mobs imo, And when facing mob types who have stronger resistances to my given power sets dmg type, having those procs help give breathing room if things are not dropping like good little dominoes for me.

Which CC procs, are they used in conjunction with Divine Avalanche + the reliable KU power katana has? More genuinely curious as in my experience there have not been many that really "add" the the survival rate over more dakka when combined with personal defense / attacks that already have some mez component! 

 

Also, ouch you found my plan to drive everyone away from the game I love 😮 

 

Look, when I post stuff I want to get info out there given there is a lot of anecdotes being tossed around and my only goal is to give clarity to those things. "Procs make builds way better!" Ok, how much better? Which procs have which effect? "X set is better than Y set!" Ok, why / how is it better? Oh, it is better in a pylon test but what about in A/B/C other thing? If said results show something people don't like... well, that to me is a win as it sheds light on what we can do to improve the game and make things more fun, not destroy what already is!

 

For every At / Set / Etc that greatly benefits from procs / the current meta, there is another on the opposite end that simply does not have the foundation to do the same. In my point of view, it is not so much about taking away from the things that currently "abuse" the system, so much as allowing everyone relatively equal access to "abuse" it. Then again, in order to do that the ceiling may need to be trimmed down some in order to expand the walls.

[Monos King]

58 minutes ago, Cherry said:

There is a place for everyone in this game but some of you need to stop acting like elitist bullies and embrace the community as a whole and stop trying to change the way others want to play, or how they want to build. Leave this elitist crap for the PVP threads.

I think you're misunderstanding people's purposes here. No one is being elitist here, just passionately exercising their efficacy. This forum is for suggestions and feedback, and a lot of people have observations and objections on how procs have altered the very nature of how the game is played - to varying degrees in different spheres. As for "changing how people want to play" literally any gameplay related discussion will have that impact in some way, this is an inevitable impact of game development, and you just have the option to influence that process here.

 

Game balance is an inexorable part of games. Unless you want to shoot the ceiling like some servers, you'll have to acknowledge that discussions about it are valid. Even when the way "others want to play" is just enjoying anything that makes them unavoidably over perform.

[ScarySai]

It's only a matter of time before the term 'elitist' is incorrectly used in any given thread.

[Cherry]

25 minutes ago, Monos King said:

No one is being elitist here

i disagree. *some* are 

 

25 minutes ago, Monos King said:

This forum is for suggestions and feedback, and a lot of people have observations and objections on how procs have altered the very nature of how the game is played

fair enough.

 

26 minutes ago, Monos King said:

you'll have to acknowledge that discussions about it are valid. Even when the way "others want to play" is just enjoying anything that makes them unavoidably over perform

noted.  thank you for your thoughtful reply. 

[Cherry]

13 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It's only a matter of time before the term 'elitist' is incorrectly used in any given thread.

maybe i should have said:  snobby or *hahaha I'm better than you* or * I'm right you're wrong? 

 

Shrugs. 

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Cherry said:

And y'all do realize this dev team is all volunteers, right? Stop demanding things from them and show a bit more gratitude we even have this game back to play.

 

This is literally the section of the forum where you bring your ideas to the devs/community at large. Constant demands to show thanks or appreciation to the Homecoming team is annoying and not something the devs do, so why do you?

 

Back on topic though- I'd like to see at most 1 damage proc per power limit. Other procs are fine and the PPM system makes them fun to have.

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

One of the first lines there states "we are using inspirations" which throws everything out the window as with enough candy you can overcome anything. It is not a valid comparison to say "oh, this thing that is part of a build is balanced/overcome by consumables" since for 99% of people those are X factors. If you chew enough purples/oranges/reds/etc, there is 0 need for a majority of things you'd actually slot for.

 

While yes, inspirations are a part of the game and you can store them via Email / etc for when you need them before an encounter, as designed they were meant to be limited to your insp slots / random drops / occasional splurge at a store (usually the hosp) if you're in a pickle. They are not meant to be something that you should be 100% reliant on all the time in significant amounts, unlike your character's build which is meant to be your foundation. I can get building to within 1 purple of soft cap as that is something more reliable, but the bullet on "its not accurate to say X compared to Y because it doesn't include inspirations"  is way too variable to account for.

 

For the specific topic of Procs on Defenders compared to Corruptors, in general Defenders get more bang out of them thanks to their higher buff/debuff numbers allowing them to more easily slot personal non-damage stats on top of procs being the same damage regardless of AT, which combined can make defenders more attractive than Corruptors in that regard where the procs can bridge the gap while keeping their support advantages. This is not universal as some sets still greatly benefit from Scourge, but it still appears to be a pervasive opinion.

 

 

It's a pervasive opinion on the forums because the majority of players here focus on mitigation over damage when building their characters.  (Whilst also denying the existence of incarnate content, where their softcapped characters nearly always require inspirations to be softcapped...completely defeating the purpose of building for the it!)

 

We should not be balancing procs around how much slot investment it takes to softcap defense. They are two separate topics entirely. If Defenders get disproportionately more out of IOS IN GENERAL then that is a separate topic which should be looked at. It's just not a concern when it comes to procs. Procs are an additive. Identical powersets have identical chances to add them or not. And if players are choosing to hamper their proc options by slotting for mitigation instead, then that's a choice they have made. And we cannot balance the game around what happens to be the most popular choice. (Because that removes player agency and creates The One True Way of playing.)

 

Put a defender and corruptor with the same build up against a single hard target and the corruptor is killing it quicker, but it's also taking more damage. That's balanced.

 

 

Quote

 

To your next point, you then go on to say that Procs are a non issue because in order to get the most out of them you need to use insps (OR, outside buffs from allies which are basically the same thing when you boil it down to +Stats). I am confused by this take as it seems you are usually pro-everything (Temps, Boosts, Insps) which by this statement would lead to Procs being dominant given you can use all sorts of X-factor things to circumvent the lost slotting bits.

 

 

I believe that anything in the game is allowed. That's how games work.

 

I also believe that procs can only be considered OP when paired with inspirations.

 

I also believe inspirations should be nerfed.

 

(Case in point - Why would I ever slot for defense when I can buy a 50% defense inspiration? Why would I ever slot for damage, when I can use red inspirations to hit the damage cap, and then go beyond it with procs?)

 

Take inspirations away, and I'm not hitting the defense softcap or the damage cap. Suddenly my procs aren't allowing me to go over the damage cap. So now procs become a balanced tradeoff in building. Suddenly the fire/fire blaster I posted a few pages back can't load up on damage procs, and my build needs to become more balanced between procs and regular IO bonus chasing.

 

It's also important to remember - if procs have their damage reduced, or their chance to fire rate reduced...I'm still going to play my fire/fire blaster exactly the same way. It's still going to load up on procs. It's still going to chug red and purple inspirations. And it's still going to outclass regular IO builds.

 

This is because the source of the perceived problem isn't procs.

 

It's inspirations.

 

 

Quote

I 100% agree here tho! A lot of people do not see the forest for the trees when it comes to procs in that it's not just "Procs" that are the issue. Its the ability of WHAT can be procced and to what extent, the PPM formula in relation to the types of powers that benefit the most, ally buffs, etc that all feed into it.

 

The issue is not so much that procs exist, but more that certain sets and powers can WILDLY benefit from them like Infrigidate making Cold Dom have a T3 blast, or Epic Holds surpassing most ST attacks likewise. To me its not even an issue of people loading up everything they can with procs (which 100% comes with a cost) but more that you can have a select few proc-bomb powers on a character and go above and beyond.

 

For the note about data gathered, that is why I linked that post in particular. In that run of testing I pitted an assortment of procs in isolation against each other to measure their impact across a fairly generic build (BS/WP scrapper) where we have a known baseline on SO enhancement. The missions were ran multiple times per slotting option and kept all the baseline values per power as they were with generics, with the addition of the procs which should be very easy to do as 6-slotting a set that include a proc often goes beyond what you could generically slot in terms of values anyway. 

 

Compared to straight debuffs, mez procs, and even the unique +Survival IO's, simply slotting 1 damage proc per power lead to more personal safety for that build where they took noticeably less incoming heat due to faster clears, even moreso when 2 damage procs per power were used. Of course, you can combine all these and be even better as each was done in isolation but it was far from a "proc monster" type of build I would assume most people think of when the term is used. 

To me, that points to Damage Procs being often just better than most other types of procs you could slot which ends up being... I guess kinda boring? Damage procs also vastly outnumber other proc types and are often flat damage which is another "meh" factor, which doesn't cut directly into performance but it does sour the IO system a bit when it boils down to "Slot bonuses, and then slap damage procs on cus theyre better and let you kill faster thus be safer". As to the earlier point, stuff like Achilles / Self Defense IOs are amazing but they also allow you to leverage damage procs even better so to me its kind of a wash.

 

Yeah, it's frustrating the discussion has been so broad-strokes. I'd love some sort of granular analysis on a proc-by-proc basis from the people suggesting these nerfs, but I don't think these forums are really the place for it considering the vocal minority of have-nots who just want procs/P2W/incarnates/farming/PLing/etc nerfed regardless of the numbers. (It's a sentiment you see on all MMORPG forums. So it's not specific to this thread/forum/game.)

 

As you said, the concern is a few powers being problematic in how they interact with procs. The issue isn't procs in and of themselves being OP. I think an interesting approach would be to form a list of these "problem powers". Because I have a strong feeling that once these problem powers are nerfed, and once inspirations are nerfed, the "proc problem" some people are talking about will suddenly vanish.

 

Of course, the area of contention will then become which powers are problematic. In my mind, non-damaging attacks and AoEs are the only culprits. Anything single-target is fine due to having negligible impact on group play. (And the idea of globally slowing down how quickly players can solo, and globally reducing the damage in PvP, is too abhorrent for me to even contemplate. Haha.)

 

Haven't had a chance to properly look through your test yet. But I think running it on non-set IOs might be misguided for testing the impact of ST damage procs? Generic IO + Damage Proc builds don't exist. You'd be better of taking two set IO builds and switching the slotting of one power and seeing how they compare for cleartimes. (I.e. 6-slotting thunderstrike vs 6-slotting damage procs. So, maybe a power in rad blast might be your best bet?) 

 

This will give you a better indication of the impact of procs in level 50 IO builds IMO. You can then put together an absolute proc monster chugging inspirations and see how that compares.

 

(Honestly, this is probably something we should do at some point. If only to put threads like this to bed for good.)

 

 

Quote

The audience here can be misleading as TBQH these folks have a different view of balance. PvP is all about fierce competition and getting an edge on your opponent, if there is something that gives you said edge of course folks will clamor for it and tell naysayers to "get good and use it so you're on our level". Similarly, Speed Runners view game balance as such:

 

If there is anything within "bounds" that allows you to go faster, they will use it. if there were a proc that let you do 9999 damage under a certain condition? Hell yeah, clear times just got faster! 

 

That is not to say they do not care about balance, far from it especially with the PvP crowd + Speedrun categories requiring parameters. Its just that they may have a very particular view on what balance means given what they do.

 

 

It's okay Bri, I got this.

While it is true that PvPers always want an edge over their opponents, it is never at the expense of game balance. If one powerset, for example, turned out to be grossly OP, then PvPers would ask for it to be nerfed. (Evidence of this is the huge list of PvP nerfs we asked for, tested, and ultimately got, during the last two beta cycles. Go have a read if you want to see proof. The idea that PvPers "just want to be OP" isn't true.) PvPers want the game to be balanced well, and then within the constraints of that balance, utilize everything available to them in order to win. Because of this, if removing/nerfing procs lead to better game balance, then PvPers would be all for it. Because game balance matters so much more in PvP.

 

You're also incorrect to assume that speedrunners are happy to use broken things if it lets them kill everything as fast as they can. They too care about game balance. Elmyder is perhaps one of the best-known speed runners in the game, holds numerous records for speed running task forces, etc. He's said plenty of times that Burn needs nerfing, as do purple/red inspirations. And he's right. How can you find satisfaction in speed running if you are doing so with such broken powers? Being unkillable thanks to inspirations, or instakilling bosses thanks to red insps + burn...these are light years more balance-upsetting than Block of Ice being slightly-better-than-normal for a Controller soloing.

 

The reason I mentioned these groups of people is because they have a much greater understanding of game balance than the average forum goer. (You cannot succeed in PvP or Speedrunning without this being true.) So, if there is consensus on the forums from casual players that procs are bad, but all the high-end players who understand game balance (with the apparent exception of Apparition) thinks procs are good...who should you listen to?

 

It's not elitist to say that those who know more, know more. And it's not trolling to ask the ignorant to provide proof to back up their desires for nerfs.

 

If procs should be nerfed, we need to see numbers proving this.

 

And the reason we need to see it for procs, and not so much other power changes, is because a proc nerf affects everyone.

 

 

Quote

In this instance, it was Seismic Smash on a Dominator which was used as an example for how even a high-calibur power can be loaded up with Procs and have a net positive on a high-damage AT. As mentioned, in isolation it does give things up but if you have buffs from Set Bonuses, Other IO's like FF "chaining" into it, or even just Inps/Team mates to cover holes it leads to the power being better than if you were to traditionally slot it, with the CAVEAT that you can patch those holes. However, patching the holes can be relatively easy due to a variety of factors, all you need to do is make sure the procced powers are able to reliably use their procs thanks to everything feeding into each other, not just soley rely on the procced out power to do its thing.

 

This is why Proc-Bombs are an issue to me when it comes to stuff like Holds / Infrigidate / etc. They are often either part of already powerful sets that happen to get an extra boost thanks to a few powers they can leverage being proc bombs, on top of certain sets not being able to "join in on the fun" or even certain AT's being disproportionately boosted by them compared to peers which can blur their lines at higher lvl to where one is favored over the other through no merit/fault of their own. 

 

While yes, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence thrown about, when you look at the "a lot of" part that is cause for concern for whatever the subject matter is. On top of results that have been posted, the general complexity of how they work, the EASE OF ACCESS to them being a factor nobody talks about (this was legit a balance on live, as weird as it is), there is something to all this.

 

Highlighted the relevant part. What you're describing here is a balanced build where a proc is not inherently overperforming, but is acting as part of a competent whole.

 

If your issue is that other sets lack these options, then the answer there is a clear one...

 

More procs. 

 

  

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Then again, in order to do that the ceiling may need to be trimmed down some in order to expand the walls.

 

It may also need to increase or stay the same.

 

Let's not guess.

Edited July 6, 2021 by America's Angel

[Cherry]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Constant demands to show thanks or appreciation to the Homecoming team is annoying and not something the devs do, so why do you?

Sorry. I dont live on these forums and Ive missed the "constant demands" 

Sorry its annoying for you... (ironic)

 

[skoryy]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

The assumption is a Brute would have less room to invest in offensive slotting than the Tanker if they’re trying to still reach any res caps or def soft caps. Brutes are more likely to pursue defense set bonuses, need defensive pools, etc. Fewer slots to invest = fewer procs. Ofc you could slot the same amount of procs, but your Brute could wind up squishy if only investing as little in defenses as a Tanker needs to.

 

Probably my last words here as this thread is invariably going places...

 

My Rad Armor tank is a shade below S/L cap even with Barrier incarnate, and those are the only ones close.  Even then she's pretty much nigh invulnerable thanks to the massive absorb shield, high resistance, and -to hit.  A Rad Armor brute won't be as invulnerable, sure, but you're making that up in DPS - more so if procs are as OP as been advertised - and they'll still have the strong layered defense set that'll make 'em tougher than most other brutes.

Edited July 6, 2021 by skoryy

[Super Atom]

7 minutes ago, Cherry said:

Sorry. I dont live on these forums and Ive missed the "constant demands" 

Sorry its annoying for you... (ironic)

 

 

Suggestion forum. For suggestions to the devs / community. This is literally the one place on the forum FOR this.

 

sug·ges·tion

noun

noun: suggestion; plural noun: suggestions

1. an idea or plan put forward for consideration.

    

    

   I'm not gonna reply to your madness further as to not derail the topic.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Super Atom