So, procs...

[Apparition]

18 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

The reason I mentioned these groups of people is because they have a much greater understanding of game balance than the average forum goer. (You cannot succeed in PvP or Speedrunning without this being true.) So, if there is consensus on the forums from casual players that procs are bad, but all the high-end players who understand game balance (with the apparent exception of Apparition) thinks procs are good...who should you listen to?

 

It's not elitist to say that those who know more, know more. And it's not trolling to ask the ignorant to provide proof to back up their desires for nerfs.

 

 

Here's the thing.  My point by showing my raid credentials (which I actually didn't like doing), was to try to point out to you that you play and operate in a tiny bubble (a bubble with high-end players to be sure), and that there are other "high end players" that play and operate outside of your bubble.

 

Playing and operating in a bubble is fine.  Nothing wrong with that all, it's natural and healthy.  The issue is acting like your bubble is representative of the whole, and even worse acting like your bubble is more knowledgeable and better than other bubbles.  @Arli and @Jitsurei are better players than I am.  That's just a fact.  It's just that I'm the weirdo who has the patience and desire to do the things that I do.  But they too see that there are substantial issues with damage procs, and they're not the only ones.  It's not just me.  To try to act like you and those in your bubble are the sole arbiters and inheritors of game knowledge and anyone outside of your bubble who disagrees with your stance on damage procs are just "ignorant casuals"... well, to be frank, that's not a good look.  It's condescending, rude, and unnecessary.  You disagree, that's fine.  But yours isn't the only view point by "high end players," and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

The reason why I've barely posted in this thread is because we (collectively, the forums), have had this argument over damage procs about 9,000 times over the past two years, and anything I've had to say on the issue has already been said by both myself elsewhere and now others like Galaxy Brain.

[Galaxy Brain]

@America's Angel , as I have stated before, you give me the parameters and I'll run the tests / crunch the numbers. It seems that for anything that is presented there is some whataboutsim that "throws the whole thing out" be it inspirations, certain build options (which is why I strip it down to the bare essentials), or even that Player A and Player B may approach something in a different order, it may be best that we come up with something agreed upon as "ok, this is the point of reference".

 

Also, I'd be happy to work with the high-level people you mention if you want to get them involved as well.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[America's Angel]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Here's the thing.  My point by showing my raid credentials (which I actually didn't like doing), was to try to point out to you that you play and operate in a tiny bubble (a bubble with high-end players to be sure), and that there are other "high end players" that play and operate outside of your bubble.

 

Playing and operating in a bubble is fine.  Nothing wrong with that all, it's natural and healthy.  The issue is acting like your bubble is representative of the whole, and even worse acting like your bubble is more knowledgeable and better than other bubbles.  @Arli and @Jitsurei are better players than I am.  That's just a fact.  It's just that I'm the weirdo who has the patience and desire to do the things that I do.  But they too see that there are substantial issues with damage procs, and they're not the only ones.  It's not just me.  To try to act like you and those in your bubble are the sole arbiters and inheritors of game knowledge and anyone outside of your bubble who disagrees with your stance on damage procs are just "ignorant casuals"... well, to be frank, that's not a good look.  It's condescending, rude, and unnecessary.  You disagree, that's fine.  But yours isn't the only view point by "high end players," and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

The reason why I've barely posted in this thread is because we (collectively, the forums), have had this argument over damage procs about 9,000 times over the past two years, and anything I've had to say on the issue has already been said by both myself elsewhere and now others like Galaxy Brain.

 

I've asked repeatedly for players to provide numbers that prove procs are OP.

 

So far, no-one has.

 

Obviously nobody is going to spend hours putting together a spreadsheet just because a stranger on the internet asked them to. But at the same time, without the proof, the claims are baseless.

 

So, it appears there's no-where this topic can actually go from here. (Short of the devs announcing a proc nerf, which will motivate the creation of said spreadsheets.)

 

I guess we'll pick this up then.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@America's Angel , as I have stated before, you give me the parameters and I'll run the tests / crunch the numbers. It seems that for anything that is presented there is some whataboutsim that "throws the whole thing" out be it inspirations, certain build options (which is why I strip it down to the bare essentials), or even that Player A and Player B may approach something in a different order, it may be best that we come up with something agreed upon as "ok, this is the point of reference".

 

Also, I'd be happy to work with the high-level people you mention if you want to get them involved as well.

 

Whataboutism is a fallacy designed to make the person claiming something appear like a hypocrite. (It doesn't actually refute what it being said.) Whataboutism does not apply to testing environments where you discover a flaw in the testing methods.

 

But yeah I'm happy to throw something together with the folks I know, although we'll probably do it whenever the devs start looking at procs in earnest. Cart before the horse and all that.

[Galaxy Brain]

16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Whataboutism is a fallacy designed to make the person claiming something appear like a hypocrite. (It doesn't actually refute what it being said.) Whataboutism does not apply to testing environments where you discover a flaw in the testing methods.

 

But yeah I'm happy to throw something together with the folks I know, although we'll probably do it whenever the devs start looking at procs in earnest. Cart before the horse and all that.

 

Not trying to make anyone seem like a hypocrite, but I do state why I run tests a certain way which is then met with "this test is invalid because you did not do XYZ other things", which leads to be a case of "well what about this thing?" whenever it is brought up. I try to strip as many variables away as possible so that it highlights what is being tested given such variables can often be hard to measure repeatedly. 

 

As for the timing, the best time is now so that there is solid data for the devs to work off of when the time comes. The horses are in the stable waiting to see what kind of cart will weight them down.

[Super Atom]

27 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I've asked repeatedly for players to provide numbers that prove procs are OP.

 

So far, no-one has.

 

Gaussian's proc is a little OP tbh, a full reliable second BU just for hitting a build up or aim is a little spicy.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

I also believe inspirations should be nerfed.

 

 

Someone definitely wake me when this “discussion” starts up.

[Galaxy Brain]

21 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Gaussian's proc is a little OP tbh, a full reliable second BU just for hitting a build up or aim is a little spicy.

 

I have to agree that this falls into the "sus / power needs a look" category as BU / Aim just so happen to have the perfect PPM for this.

[America's Angel]

Yeah I posted about it earlier in the thread. It's absurdly broken. Works out as an effective 45% damage buff in aggro-capped invincibility, too.

[ScarySai]

9 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Someone definitely wake me when this “discussion” starts up.

 

Nerf everything powerful in the superhero game, then we can truly balance the game that thrives on powerful characters doing OP things.

[Arli]

17 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Do you not use the same proc builds on a brute?  My brute builds are more proc dependent than my tank builds since they're better bang for the buck than damage enhancements.

 

I prefer building more resistances/defenses on a brute as a general practice to make them useful for both teamplay and solo play with this philosophy in mind; if they can't take the hits, then they can't do the damage. It's like trying to take a brute built for fire farming and then throwing it into a bunch of Arachnos at +4 x8 - it won't end well, no matter what the damage output is. But this is my perspective, and how I approach building brutes in general - I prefer them for versatility - and sometimes they are used to "tank" content. I was primarily a villain player prior to the ability to swap alignments, so I did the best with what I had - and I still like brutes, but tankers are objectively better at tanking, and scrappers are objectively better at damage, so it's been awkward trying to build brutes effectively so they could still fulfill both roles without having separate builds (and I have seen instances where teams prefer scrappers over brutes because they feel brutes don't do enough damage in general).

 

In response to the comments I've seen since, though - (and of course, since it was suggested I shouldn't be taken seriously):

 

I understand there are a lot of people who say procs are fine - that they shouldn't be changed in how they behave. I was on legacy servers - was part of speed teams, and we relied on procs even then - and now it feels objectively worse. Procs appear to make some aspects of the game feel too easy. Endurance management? Toss in a couple of procs that provide + endurance in static powers. Want more oomph in attacks that feel underwhelming? Slot some chance for x damage procs in. You can slot more than one in, anyway. Want your build up to have more power? Slot a Gaussian's in (conversely, some also drop it into Tactics). I know players that have stopped playing the game simply because they've steamrolled content and no longer view the game as challenging enough (even incarnate trials). Which is fair enough. But this perspective was helped along by the prevalence of procs (to a degree), and I'd like to see that changed.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Arli said:

 I know players that have stopped playing the game simply because they've steamrolled content and no longer view the game as challenging enough (even incarnate trials). Which is fair enough. But this perspective was helped along by the prevalence of procs (to a degree), and I'd like to see that changed.

 

This is my biggest concern. For some, the appeal of being "Super" and steamrolling everything solo can be fun, but for most that is only fun for so long (like punting Hellions... nobody *just* does that). A big deal for a lot of players is the feeling that they made the "Wrong Choice" when it comes to builds, sets, or even AT's which gets exasperated by the ways many characters "Become Super", which in turn can make the experience boring for some when they get there.

 

We can try to bring everyone up to the same level (insert syndrome.gif), but that may just lead to the same problem only exaggerated. While the "wrong choice" is no longer as big an issue, it becomes a problem of "well, everything plays the same and I'm not invested anymore..."

[skoryy]

11 minutes ago, Arli said:

 I know players that have stopped playing the game simply because they've steamrolled content and no longer view the game as challenging enough (even incarnate trials). Which is fair enough. But this perspective was helped along by the prevalence of procs (to a degree), and I'd like to see that changed.

 

The problem is that the only thing your challenging by lowering DPS is your players' patience.  The problem isn't DPS balance, the problem is 95% of the game's content is tank, spank, and maintain your rotation.  There's minimal mechanics to memorize, mainly as the system was never designed for mechanics to begin with.  No boss mechanics, no telegraphed attacks to avoid, no rage meters, no break bars.  If all I'm doing is just pressing the same buttons over and over and over again, you're right that people will get bored.  Trust me, I did!

[Galaxy Brain]

40 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

The problem is that the only thing your challenging by lowering DPS is your players' patience.  The problem isn't DPS balance, the problem is 95% of the game's content is tank, spank, and maintain your rotation.  There's minimal mechanics to memorize, mainly as the system was never designed for mechanics to begin with.  No boss mechanics, no telegraphed attacks to avoid, no rage meters, no break bars.  If all I'm doing is just pressing the same buttons over and over and over again, you're right that people will get bored.  Trust me, I did!

 

This too!

 

Look at the variety of other non-damage proc options. They're almost all "bad" because they do not compete with dakka.

 

Edit:

The only ones that do are things like Knockdown (due to being a purple AoE proc, and some odds/ends), harsh debuffs (more dakka usually), and some of the "Critical" control options which I feel should be in each control type (+1 mag hold, Contagious confuse). Stuff like chance to immob / slow / are just not useful in their current states unless they were treated more like a true "unique".

Edited July 6, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Apparition]

33 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

The problem is that the only thing your challenging by lowering DPS is your players' patience.  The problem isn't DPS balance, the problem is 95% of the game's content is tank, spank, and maintain your rotation.  There's minimal mechanics to memorize, mainly as the system was never designed for mechanics to begin with.  No boss mechanics, no telegraphed attacks to avoid, no rage meters, no break bars.  If all I'm doing is just pressing the same buttons over and over and over again, you're right that people will get bored.  Trust me, I did!

 

You are right about the lack of mechanics being a substantial issue, but DPS balance is an issue as well.  Why play a Corruptor when you can play a Defender that has better buffs, better debuffs, better personal defenses, and does nearly as much damage as a Corruptor if not more thanks to procs?  Why play a Brute when you can play a Tanker that has substantially better damage mitigation and does nearly as much damage if not more thanks to procs?
 

I have seen procced out Defender builds that literally do 95% of the damage of a non-procced out Blaster with the same ranged damage set, with substantially better personal defenses.  In what world is that balanced?

[Super Atom]

31 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I have seen procced out Defender builds that literally do 95% of the damage of a non-procced out Blaster with the same ranged damage set, with substantially better personal defenses.  In what world is that balanced?

 

Gonna need to see proof, this is kinda sus. Wheres bopper when you need him, hes probably done this math a couple times already

 

unless you're saying a slotted defender vs a non-slotted blaster but that's like saying empathy has better heals than force field.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Super Atom

[America's Angel]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Not trying to make anyone seem like a hypocrite, but I do state why I run tests a certain way which is then met with "this test is invalid because you did not do XYZ other things", which leads to be a case of "well what about this thing?" whenever it is brought up. I try to strip as many variables away as possible so that it highlights what is being tested given such variables can often be hard to measure repeatedly. 

 

As for the timing, the best time is now so that there is solid data for the devs to work off of when the time comes. The horses are in the stable waiting to see what kind of cart will weight them down.

 

If the devs are planning to globally nerf something in a way that affects all ATs, they should already have solid data.

 

I'm more than happy to provide supplementary data, though. Once I know what they need.

 

Shouldn't be too hard to put together, I do it enough for the PvP changes.

 

  

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

This too!

 

Look at the variety of other non-damage proc options. They're almost all "bad" because they do not compete with dakka.

 

Edit:

The only ones that do are things like Knockdown (due to being a purple AoE proc, and some odds/ends), harsh debuffs (more dakka usually), and some of the "Critical" control options which I feel should be in each control type (+1 mag hold, Contagious confuse). Stuff like chance to immob / slow / are just not useful in their current states unless they were treated more like a true "unique".

 

There's actually a lot of useful procs:

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

Especially in PvP. (Where things like -recharge and -end are actually useful!)

Edited July 6, 2021 by America's Angel

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, America's Angel said:

 

If the devs are planning to globally nerf something in a way that affects all ATs, they should already have solid data.

 

I'm more than happy to provide supplementary data, though. Once I know what they need.

 

Shouldn't be too hard to put together, I do it enough for the PvP changes.

 

Dev Data does not always = Player Data, you should know based on your PvP experience there 🙂

[America's Angel]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Dev Data does not always = Player Data, you should know based on your PvP experience there 🙂

 

LOL. I'm being optimistic given that the devs actually PvE.

 

But you're right. I shouldn't assume.

[skoryy]

49 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

You are right about the lack of mechanics being a substantial issue, but DPS balance is an issue as well.  Why play a Corruptor when you can play a Defender that has better buffs, better debuffs, better personal defenses, and does nearly as much damage as a Corruptor if not more thanks to procs?  Why play a Brute when you can play a Tanker that has substantially better damage mitigation and does nearly as much damage if not more thanks to procs?
 

I have seen procced out Defender builds that literally do 95% of the damage of a non-procced out Blaster with the same ranged damage set, with substantially better personal defenses.  In what world is that balanced?

 

DPS balance no longer becomes an issue if all those tankers and defenders have incentive to build for something more than just highest DPS.   If you're just nerfing their DPS, all you are dis-incentivizing is anyone's reason to play them.

 

You're not building an imperfect balance around just DPS.  There have to be more factors there.

Edited July 6, 2021 by skoryy

[Olerus]

My perspective on this is pretty simple.  To me, my gameplay pattern since coming to Homecoming has tended to be:

• Get an idea (theme, set, power combo, etc.)
• Make a Mids build
• Play a character up through whatever pops up in the LFG chat
• Convert merit tokens to converters and slowly get build pieces as I level
• Hit 50, respec into build (play market if needed)
• Run that level 50 for a couple weeks getting Incarnate abilities maxed out
• Play the 50 on rotation with other 50s as the mood arises after that
• Get an idea

Nowhere in that gameplay loop do I want or plan for remaking character builds en masse because the fundamental behaviors I designed those builds around changed.  Are those builds typically fairly powerful builds with high recharge and defense?  Yes.  Part of the enjoyment I get from the game is puzzlecraft of making a build that is as efficient as possible, or does unique and interesting things.  To me, getting that hidden part of the character just right is an artform and I am proud of my creations and their performance.

 

If the game decided that those artpieces were just obscene and unbalanced and broke all of them, I probably wouldn't just remake them to the next closest thing.  It would take extra time and effort, and it is possible that changes would fundamentally warp the things that even attracted me to play a given AT or powerset combination.  And while I can easily commit time and effort into making a build when I have the joy and excitement of a new idea, I think the opposite is true playing doctor to salvage builds decimated by changed.

 

Most likely, this would push me away from the server.  It would directly affect the gameplay loop that makes me continue to want to play and create new alts and force me to immediately put a substantial amount of time and effort reworking every character I want to play at 50 to get the closest possible experience to what I had before.  I don't think I'd easily climb that wall and continue playing the characters I've made on the server, and that would put a damper on making alts.

 

I don't think the reward for changing procs is commensurate with the risk it presents.  It effects a small portion of the playerbase and requires significant effort to do right.  It would be different if procs changes were a new invention that could be recalled with little sunk cost, but they have acted this way since Homecoming went public.  Virtually every IO build has been made based partially around procs performing as-is, and that is a sunk cost of time and effort.

[Mezmera]

I honestly do like proc's and the creativity afforded builds through them and IOs in general.  It's just crazy though how much regression there is towards damage procs because they are the more optimal choice overall in many cases, especially on platforms that already offer best survivability to start like defenders and tanks, but really any long recharging exploitable power is game. 

 

On my tanker I have the main tank build but then I have my 2nd proc'd out build which I still accidently get 3k hp and tons of resistance and defense on top of great procing.  How is it that I can take a hold on the tank and the base damage is 30pts but then I add the purple range and hold, pvp range and hold procs that'll most all proc for a total of 310pts of damage.  Then I add a decimation proc @Super Atom for a 2nd procable build up that procs every other hold to go along with the gaussian plus my regular BU for some spicy damage.

 

Where long recharging procs are most beneficial in aoe damage powers and some of the ST attacks the problem is then also relatable to pvp where ST attacks are king and a defender getting more value out a hold attack they can have tons of procs firing off in compared to an actual control character that has faster recharge thus the value of their hold is negated when the non control characters get better use out of their holds on a much better dmg/survivable platform.  

 

Some procs already push the boundaries like the BU procs and -resist ones but damage procs in such high volume is just a tad out of hand.  Not recognizing it as it is and then building for these exploits is some mighty weird logic.  There needs some real reworking of procs honestly, a hybrid approach, a happy medium where procs, bonuses and the powers themselves get balanced better.  

[JayboH]

On 7/4/2021 at 7:17 PM, skoryy said:

I checked Mids Reborn.  Five slotting a corruptor's Acid Mortar for proc damage gets me 395 damage every six seconds.  (Are we sure its per fire and not just on the summon?)  My tank gets 361 per combo 3 Spinning Strike every ~6 seconds.   Also the Acid Mortar actually has to hit with a base 75% unenhanced for accuracy, on top of surviving aggro.

 

So, yeah, I don't really see it as exceptionally OP.  Its certainly stronger than it was, but you're making some tradeoffs for that.  

...well the 6th slot is for accuracy of course.  It actually is also a pretty tough little bugger.  You can definitely test it and see that the procs go off as it fires.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Olerus said:

• Get an idea (theme, set, power combo, etc.)
• Make a Mids build
• Play a character up through whatever pops up in the LFG chat
• Convert merit tokens to converters and slowly get build pieces as I level
• Hit 50, respec into build (play market if needed)
• Run that level 50 for a couple weeks getting Incarnate abilities maxed out
• Play the 50 on rotation with other 50s as the mood arises after that
• Get an idea

Just out of curiosity, what do you usually build for? I've tried expanding out to some oddball builds like as many +Heal procs as possible on a character and the like before 🙂

Edited July 6, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Super Atom]

I know how to tweak it, my sus was more on the logic behind the point being made. A defender can catch up to a non-IO'd blaster in damage. I don't see how that makes a case for procs being overpowered considering an IO'd blaster would absolutely dust a defender in damage. @Mezmera Is the issue that Defenders should never do blaster-tier damage even if a blaster can outpace it in damage?

[BlackHearted]

23 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

 if you dont see the obvious fact staring you in the face that you're skipping potential dmg/resistance anytime you go for softcap on a build like a defender or corr then i don't know what to tell you fam... that makes no logical sense to do on a build that's intended for teaming... aim'n for 25ish% def so you'll be over the cap with a team full of maneuvers (or one cold or FF or like 2 darks etc etc) on the other hand actually makes logical sense to do for a team build.