knockback Proposed Knockback modifcation/fix

[arcane]

No vote since converting to KD often is a substantive buff to a power and therefore merits a reasonable opportunity cost.

[Super Atom]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

No vote since converting to KD often is a substantive buff to a power and therefore merits a reasonable opportunity cost.

 

Only in some cases. In others, it actually makes the power and set weaker than it already was. Energy Blast for example suffers greatly from over-use of KB in its abilities and the opportunity cost is a massive negative to fix.

 

wont someone PLEASE think about the energy blasters!

Edited July 13, 2021 by Super Atom

[Koopak]

21 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Only in some cases. In others, it actually makes the power and set weaker than it already was. Energy Blast for example suffers greatly from over-use of KB in its abilities and the opportunity cost is a massive negative to fix.

 

wont someone PLEASE think about the energy blasters!

 

Honestly while energy gets the short end of the stick if you just hate KB for some reason and cant stand its existence, if you are just looking to control your AoE, you only need 2 or 3 depending on if you count Energy Torrent. I get that slowly pushing an enemy out of the pack and into another can be an issue but its not that common a problem and easily mitigated. If someone argued Energy Blast should have a knockback toggle id go "the fuck?" followed by "okay yeah i can see that" not a 100% support, but yeah as a uniquely effected powerset i can see it.

[Super Atom]

38 minutes ago, Koopak said:

 

Honestly while energy gets the short end of the stick if you just hate KB for some reason and cant stand its existence, if you are just looking to control your AoE, you only need 2 or 3 depending on if you count Energy Torrent. I get that slowly pushing an enemy out of the pack and into another can be an issue but its not that common a problem and easily mitigated. If someone argued Energy Blast should have a knockback toggle id go "the fuck?" followed by "okay yeah i can see that" not a 100% support, but yeah as a uniquely effected powerset i can see it.

 

My energy blaster didn't take the cone because of the KB and the desire not to spend slots on it. I use KB>KD So i can jump in, nova and then use my AOE on the still grouped enemies without them scattering. If they did all get swept away from nova i wouldn't be able to follow up with my aoe for the survivors. I sacrifice 2 spots for potential damage to deal with the KB Which would negatively effect me/my damage output. I do however not have KB>KD in my ST attacks because it's just the 1 guy and he usually dies anyway or it's a boss. It does feel like the sets own kit doesn't flow well with itself sometimes.

 

I kinda wish there was an optional toggle or whatever to remove the KB overall for energy blast, but that is unlikely to ever happen and since some people for whatever reason enjoy KB, I wouldn't want them to just remove it either. So it becomes a problem of damned if you do, damned if you don't as far as energy goes. I deal with it though and love my energy blaster (first character i ever made in 2004) anyway.

 

I'm not a speed runner or impatient so my decreased damage output doesn't effect me in solo and on a team it doesn't matter, 6 people could only use brawl and everything would still die in 3 seconds now a days anyway.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Super Atom

[Koopak]

41 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

 I sacrifice 2 spots for potential damage to deal with the KB Which would negatively effect me/my damage output.

This is what I was getting at earlier. You didn't sacrifice 2 slots, you spent 2 slots to greatly increase your AoE. I'd argue far more than any damage or proc could do.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Koopak said:

This is what I was getting at earlier. You didn't sacrifice 2 slots, you spent 2 slots to greatly increase your AoE. I'd argue far more than any damage or proc could do.

 

Yeah but that's unique to EB, you're increasing your damage output to what other blasters do but less because you have to sacrifice damage to do it.

[Koopak]

42 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Yeah but that's unique to EB, you're increasing your damage output to what other blasters do but less because you have to sacrifice damage to do it.

I disagree a little, going through blasters.

Archery: Explosive Arrow pushes mobs out of Rain of Arrows (and oil burn patch if yer pairing with TA but i wont get into secondaries further)
Assault Rifle: M30 Gernade pushes mobs out of Ignite

Energy Blast: yes?

And this is only talking about non cones. Now I think the examples above are almost disingenuous because in my experience they don't knock that far. So if their 3ish mag KB is fine, then only Nova needs the IO, so how does Nova stack up? Well, poorly, and thats because it has the same or worse Damage, DPA, and DPS to almost all equivelents either as T9s or just as AoEs. Only Rad and Dark are basically one for one on these metrics, but Nova has about 5 times the knockback, in fact thats meant to be its THING just as the others have their own secondary effects.

Now i see the use of Nova's knockback as a survival tool, especially since it was originally designed to leave you vulnerable after, but yeah i think its clear Nova is lagging and its because of this. So I can see why that power specifically becomes a "I need this to make it worth using" but thats a power balance issue, not a KB issue.

And again, unless you are purely soloing, in which case regrouping between cooldowns isn't THAT hard, then a HUGE amount of the power of the KB->KD IO that makes it worth the slot, is the damage you get out of it as a team because you were able to use Nova and not push all the mobs out of the radius of everyone else's AoEs

Not to rag on you Super Atom, this next bit is a general observation/complaint/old man yelling at cloud, regarding the community as a whole. Way to often things are over simplified down to solo, single mob, or even single enemy situations when many powers and enhancements do not make any kind of sense in that limited scenario and are instead designed for the game as it is.

This IO's biggest value is in a team, not solo, your Nova -> Explosive Blast issue can partly be mitigated by inverting it to Explosive Blast -> Nova. Key word 'partly', obviously if 3.32kb is pushing people the 10+ units needed to exit Nova's Radius that might not be perfect. The real issue is your Nova yeeting mobs with its 16.62kb out of the 15-25 radius of everyone eleses AoE, and even then that usually more an efficiency issue than a danger to the team.

probably repeated myself to much but i have a migrain atm so bite me 😜

Edited July 13, 2021 by Koopak

[wjrasmussen]

On 7/12/2021 at 11:45 AM, dnomad333 said:

 

Fair assessment. I don't play on all the servers. But I do run PUGs a lot. I can't give you a number, but I encounter a great # of people during the day. Maybe I keep running into the same people all the time. Who knows, I don't always track Global's. So I will retract part of that sentence.

 

But this is happening. It's one of the reasons that I asked about Datamining as part of possible implementation. No this isn't my SG and or friends exclusively doing this. I saw a problem that I concluded that was happening due to my experience and offered a solution.

 

This is why you should use I statements.  I feel ____.  It is honest too.

 

What would you datamine?   Lack of use?

 

KB is ok.  It can be annoying in groups or where you need to concentrate powers.   But many characters I have (yes, I surveyed my characters) use KB as a means combat advantage when they solo.

[Super Atom]

@Koopak

 

There's a lot of ways around the KB and other sets have much smaller opportunity cost in removing their KB, but with energy the KB could just be countered by a small increase in damage across the board. give it a reason to have the KB, even if it just evens out to having a damage proc in those abilities. Then people who want to counter the KB just use the IO's to remove it without suffering the damage loss. So removing the KB isn't even needed in energy and it'd make the set a little stronger for people who do use KB for whatever. I digress though and we're slowly moving extremely off topic haha

[ironjoe]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Well, he'd be wrong. And so are you: Here's a link to an actual poll that was conducted last year.

 

The players who say they LOVE KNOCKBACK total 52.47% of the respondents. Players who hate knockback, or who wish it was knockdown instead, total just 22.77% of the respondents.

 

So much for your "majority."

 

BTW, gaslighting is when you engage in deception over a long period of time with the purpose of making someone question their sanity. When I simply disagree with you on something, especially when it's just once, then it's literally not gaslighting.

 

So now you're 0 and 2, Iron Joe. Care to take a third swing?

 

So out of 301 people in the poll 13% prefer knock back, 20% prefer knock-up, and 66% prefer knockdown.

 

Your poll on the other hand seems to be worded in a manner to get a desired result and seems to have gathered a minimal response due to that.

 

You hadn't disagreed yet, we were talking about the OP. You responded to the OP multiple times making your assertion, so yes it was gas lighting as you were seeking to, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."

[Koopak]

7 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

 

So out of 301 people in the poll 13% prefer knock back, 20% prefer knock-up, and 66% prefer knockdown.

 

Your poll on the other hand seems to be worded in a manner to get a desired result and seems to have gathered a minimal response due to that.

 

You hadn't disagreed yet, we were talking about the OP. You responded to the OP multiple times making your assertion, so yes it was gas lighting as you were seeking to, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."

 

That is an equally if not MORE loaded poll. PF's asks if people fell it needs to be changed or removed and their general opinion on it as a mechanic. Yourse proposes which mechanic they "prefer" you can EASILY prefer Knockdown while enjoying Knockback and wanting it kept in the game. In fact one could argue thats EXACTLY the opinion held by everyone in this thread who says the current IO solution is fine and uses them.

I think arguing over poll data is a huge mistake in this discussion anyways, how people feel about the mechanic is only one component of the argument, and an extremely difficult to quantify one at that. Let alone with polls that don't even represent a significant portion of the actual active, player base.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Koopak

[dnomad333]

49 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

This is why you should use I statements.  I feel ____.  It is honest too.

 

What would you datamine?   Lack of use?

 

KB is ok.  It can be annoying in groups or where you need to concentrate powers.   But many characters I have (yes, I surveyed my characters) use KB as a means combat advantage when they solo.

 

I feel this change is needed. I feel players are being affected by choosing KB. I feel powersets that have KB are not used as much and/or getting looked over. But, I feel my feelings shouldn't be involved in this...

 

Datamining... Are powers with KB being chosen less than their counterparts? That is the first thing I am curious about. Is the KB to KD proc used more than the set? That is something I am also curious about. And lastly have much is the KB to KD proc even being used?

 

I feel for the most part KB works in a Solo environment. But for a game that I feel thrives on Teaming, it doesn't.

Truthfully, in the end I feel that knock back should be considered for a redesign. Is that feasible? Probably not. However, I am looking at a low resource stop gap instead.

[Player-1]

Many good points here, though I will echo what Powerhouse has said before: any "global" switch for KB will not only simplify the task of conversion, but simplify the animosity towards the "wrong" choice for many players given there is an even smaller "barrier".

 

A good point raised that should be thought about is that not all KB is the same! A Single target power like Power Thrust =/= Explosive Arrow =/= Gale =/= Water Spout, and not all power sets with KB are the same either! Just look at Energy Blast vs Archery, two sets with either every power or just a single power with KB. 

 

With this in mind, it may be more productive to focus on the good aspects of these powers, sets, or even KB itself and how it could be worked into something beneficial instead of what some may consider "trolling", as a universal switch may not be solving the correct problem.

[dnomad333]

4 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

Many good points here, though I will echo what Powerhouse has said before: any "global" switch for KB will not only simplify the task of conversion, but simplify the animosity towards the "wrong" choice for many players given there is an even smaller "barrier".

 

A good point raised that should be thought about is that not all KB is the same! A Single target power like Power Thrust =/= Explosive Arrow =/= Gale =/= Water Spout, and not all power sets with KB are the same either! Just look at Energy Blast vs Archery, two sets with either every power or just a single power with KB. 

 

With this in mind, it may be more productive to focus on the good aspects of these powers, sets, or even KB itself and how it could be worked into something beneficial instead of what some may consider "trolling", as a universal switch may not be solving the correct problem.

 

Thanks for the response! I completely agree with the exception of one point. Players are being singled out at as is.

Edited July 13, 2021 by dnomad333
grammer

[Koopak]

4 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

 

Thanks for the response! I completely agree with the exception of one point. Players are being singled out at as is.

They are, but there only two ways to stop that and they both blow. Remove the IO, or remove all KB in the game. The first one STILL leaves room because of "i don't team with EB blasters because of KB".

The current solution allows people to resolve the issue, only on powers where its an issue for them specifically, grants significant build decisions, AND keeps the 'barrier' to 'fixing' the KB 'issue' those sets have vague and significant enough to quiet some people down. I feel that the amount of harassment on this topic is largely overblown, but maybe that's just Everlasting being more chill.

As Player-1 said though KB can be just as much a boon as a curse, its a tool, and seeing excellent use of it is one of the things that made me dive into a huge Warshade build that i am so happy to have and play now.

[dnomad333]

1 minute ago, Koopak said:

They are, but there only two ways to stop that and they both blow. Remove the IO, or remove all KB in the game. The first one STILL leaves room because of "i don't team with EB blasters because of KB".

The current solution allows people to resolve the issue, only on powers where its an issue for them specifically, grants significant build decisions, AND keeps the 'barrier' to 'fixing' the KB 'issue' those sets have vague and significant enough to quiet some people down. I feel that the amount of harassment on this topic is largely overblown, but maybe that's just Everlasting being more chill.

As Player-1 said though KB can be just as much a boon as a curse, its a tool, and seeing excellent use of it is one of the things that made me dive into a huge Warshade build that i am so happy to have and play now.

 

What happened to playing as you like, and or want to play?

[PeregrineFalcon]

36 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

You responded to the OP multiple times making your assertion, so yes it was gas lighting as you were seeking to, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."

I was having a discussion with the OP, disagreeing with him, and trying to get him to see the mistakes in the way he was phrasing things. I was not deceiving him about anything, nor was I trying to get him to question his sanity. Having a disagreement with someone is NOT gaslighting. Gaslighting is something that takes place over months or years.

 

And, unless you are psychic, and can read my mind, you do not get to tell me that I am gaslighting someone. You can not read my mind. You clearly do not understand why I am doing anything. You clearly do not understand the difference between a disagreement and gaslighting, so I suggest that you speak to a professional who can explain it to you in a way that you'll understand.

 

And now you're 0 for 3, Iron Joe. Third strike - you're out.  😉

[arcane]

ITT we learned PeregrineFalcon is causing other posters to question their own sanity, apparently..

[Haijinx]

Yay, a knockback thread!

[Koopak]

17 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

 

What happened to playing as you like, and or want to play?

 

If you want to 100% put a stop to people being assholes about other people using knockback, then the only solution is to not allow people to play with knockback. You cant make people be nicer, only make it harder for them to justify to themselves being mean. Personally? I prefer the IO solution as is, it allows granular, per power choice on where to convert KB to KD, its an excellent tool and allows you to remove components you don't like.

 

I assume you and most others here realize that there will always be 'that guy' in varying amounts unless you physically remove the ability for 'that guy' to complain. So my point here is: I believe any change that makes it easier to convert KB to KD will only make 'that guy' worse and more common until we outright forcibly convert all KB to KD. I hope that is clear, and I hope everyone here can agree that removing KB entirely from the game is just not an acceptable answer. Thus, i propose that the current system is the best we can reasonably ask for at this time baring one of the devs drinking their body weight in coffee and licking timespace until the code produces a superior form of KB that magically always goes in just the right direction and just the right distance.

[Sunsette]

I'm glad that there is finally some discussion of individual powersets coming into play.

 

I keep mentioning Energy Blast and other people have chosen to focus on, of all things, Bonfire.

 

The powers that have become absurdly good because of KB to KD were not powers being selected for their damage. They are already happy to spend the tax because the utility was the point. Bonfire could do zero damage and it would still be one of the most powerful abilities in the game, using it as the benchmark is not great. Giving this ability to Bonfire etc free would be a buff for those powers, sure, but it also wouldn't significantly increase their already imbalanced state.

 

The big issue is damage-focused powers that carry knockback, which is primarily a blast set issue and especially an Energy Blast issue. 

 

What we need are adjustments to actual powers and KB IO sets (like linked in my sig, again) that are intended for use with damage powers. But if a global switch is all we're getting, and I would rather it not be but if it were, it's going to be a far more beneficial change to Blast damage sets than a meaningful change to the already broken control powers that use it. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sunsette

[dnomad333]

4 minutes ago, Koopak said:

 

If you want to 100% put a stop to people being assholes about other people using knockback, then the only solution is to not allow people to play with knockback. You cant make people be nicer, only make it harder for them to justify to themselves being mean. Personally? I prefer the IO solution as is, it allows granular, per power choice on where to convert KB to KD, its an excellent tool and allows you to remove components you don't like.

 

I assume you and most others here realize that there will always be 'that guy' in varying amounts unless you physically remove the ability for 'that guy' to complain. So my point here is: I believe any change that makes it easier to convert KB to KD will only make 'that guy' worse and more common until we outright forcibly convert all KB to KD. I hope that is clear, and I hope everyone here can agree that removing KB entirely from the game is just not an acceptable answer. Thus, i propose that the current system is the best we can reasonably ask for at this time baring one of the devs drinking their body weight in coffee and licking timespace until the code produces a superior form of KB that magically always goes in just the right direction and just the right distance.

 

I do like this post and I can even appreciate you view on it. But I want to point out a couple of things. We agree that there is a problem. As to what that problem is we diverge. We also agree that removing KB completely is also an issue. However. I want to point out there will never be a 'magic' fix. It will never happen. Maybe if we get another game (No, I know nothing about such a thing). Devs may, if the stars align' create a better approach.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I, for one, use KB as mitigation on some of my alts, so no vote.

 

Right now, KB sets are at the top of the list with useful procs (looking at you Force Feedback).  It's more than reasonable that if an individual chooses to give up a slot in order to get rid of an effect they don't like, well, we're already there!

[CodeJunkie]

Leave my knockback alone.

[Koopak]

11 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

 

I do like this post and I can even appreciate you view on it. But I want to point out a couple of things. We agree that there is a problem. As to what that problem is we diverge. We also agree that removing KB completely is also an issue. However. I want to point out there will never be a 'magic' fix. It will never happen. Maybe if we get another game (No, I know nothing about such a thing). Devs may, if the stars align' create a better approach.

 

I believe you may have misunderstood on a "magic fix" as you are reiterating my intended point. There is no magic fix, and even in a new game it would still be an issue unless the rest of the game changed around it, but thats neither here nor there.

My core thesis is the existing solution as is, is the closest we will get as it empowers the player, but provides a cost for removing the need to think about positioning or the risk of breaking up AoEs. That the issue of harassment and outcasting is something that cannot be solved by anything less than changes we all agree would be unacceptable. And lastly that any changes that make the first part easier and less costly will not only have sweeping balance effects but also make the harassment and outcasting issue exponentially worse.

Maybe I am also misunderstanding you as well, but i don't think we disagree on the problem, we disagree on the solution, because I believe that the existing KB->KD IO is well worth its cost in most powers where it is a significant issue baring unique exceptions, and because I am very certain that a single global IO, or toggle will result in more harassment, not less.

That is not to say that there are not powers, like Nova, that should get a look.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Koopak