Can we remove all secondary level 1 choices as a must have ? I am talking Entangling Arrow here

[Ghost]

Would you be good with them allowing you to skip the T1, if you weren’t allowed to pick the T2 until at a higher level ?

[JayboH]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

 

Oddly enough the Developers didn't see it too much work to switch T1 and T2 for Tankers.  So why would the OPTION of allowing to take a T2 on a secondary set be so difficult. 

Again this is already an OPTION for Primary powers.

 

I replied to some of the comments and even tried to explain my point as it seems some posters misunderstood the request. 

 

At the end of the day its the suggestion forum and they don't go running around locking threads because you don't like the suggestion or what is being said.

 

I mean this is what you said

It has NOTHING to do with the suggestion I posted. You are pretty much telling me why I MUST have that power.. You pretty much ignored what I said and just made it about your own point. I understand you feel the need to give me a lesson on importance of entanglement arrow but you should at least address the suggestion.

Maybe explain or expand on why having the option to pick a T2 instead of T1 is a bad thing ? What sort of cataclysmic effect it would have ? Is there some power creep you are aware of ? 

We only can pick 5 power pools and some are locked out when others are picked. So not picking a T1 power will enable a player to pick something in a power pool at most. 

Again I roll back to my statement above. Why does having the Option in a primary not break the game or not create the label of maxing but having that option in the secondary suddenly make you a bad person or a cheesy player. 
 

It doesn't seem like any of this matters.  Someone mentioned why the developers said it will never happen.  They tried it for tankers and because of that they determined it will not happen.

 

I don't understand what your goal is currently.  Do you want them to change their mind?

 

Why do you think they won't do it because they think you are a bad person or cheesy player?  They said it was too much work, or at least that's what it sounded like.  I never said anything about the option making you a bad person or a cheesy player so I don't know why you are replying to me about those phrases.

[JayboH]

EDIT:  forum double posted

Edited July 27, 2021 by JayboH

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, JayboH said:

It doesn't seem like any of this matters.  Someone mentioned why the developers said it will never happen.  They tried it for tankers and because of that they determined it will not happen.

 

I don't understand what your goal is currently.  Do you want them to change their mind?

 

Why do you think they won't do it because they think you are a bad person or cheesy player?  They said it was too much work, or at least that's what it sounded like.  I never said anything about the option making you a bad person or a cheesy player so I don't know why you are replying to me about those phrases.

Funny you are asking me why I am asking you about being a cheesy player. But  you are quoting another person in response to me. 

 

If you take the time to read what this other person sent me to read, that you are quoting and stating  it will never happen.  You will realize the Developers are actually stating it can happen and they suggested it.

 

You will read that the Developers wanted to switch the T1 powers with the T2 powers.  Meaning your first mandatory choice would be the T2 power instead in the T1 spot..  They were moving 2 powers around.  They were NOT giving players the option of picking the T2 over the T1.

 

Players complained to some degree that they wanted to tank and not have a DPS increase per say.  Though if you read a few pages you will also see players thought it was cool idea after MISUNDERSTANDING what the Devs have said thinking it was an OPTION..  You will see one person posted about a Stalker not taking hide as their initial choice and gimping themselves out for a few levels before they could pick it up again.

I might have picked Entanglement arrow as my target for this post, but my request which I attempted clarify a second time and I stated this in the post you are quoting me from and also and I am yet again restating it..

 

I am asking for the OPTION to pick the T2 over the T1 on your secondary power set. Similar to what you can do now with your primary set.  

Currently when creating the character you are locked in to picking the first power in the secondary set.  I would like the option to have 2 powers to choose from at level one from the secondary set.. Either the T1 or T2 power.. 

EG When creating my Robot Trick Arrow Mastermind I have the choice of picking up Pulse Rifle Blast or Battle Drones from the Primary.  On the secondary I would like the OPTION to EITHER pick up Entanglement Arrow OR Flash Arrow at level 1..  

 

It is further obvious that this is linked to the Secondary Set as what is primary for some Arch Types is Secondary for other Arch Types.. 

As another example for this would be Corruptors and Defenders. If you look you will see Trick Arrow is Primary for Defenders with the option of Entanglement Arrow or Flash Arrow at level one.. Whereas for Corruptors Trick Arrow is a secondary and only has the ability to pick one power at level one. 

As far as me mentioning cheesy player. I felt I needed to cover as many bases with you. For the simple reason, you didn't respond to my suggestion but gave me your opinion on a power.  Then after reclarifying my suggestion a second time you then still did not read comments and felt a thread lock was needed for some still unknown reason. So since you initially quoted someone else and decided on the lesson. I figured you would just quote someone else and use that as a reason. 

 

This is why I asked you for some facts or some sort of data to support any further possible statements.  This is also why I delved into the power pools statement to try to see what angle you would retort back with..   I was covering the bases best I could so we didn't keep jumping from one reason to another..  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tidge]

Every once in a while the issue of "multiple choice in the secondary" comes up... search fu should include "skipping T1". There are a few standard replies:

• TPTB won't let this happen, because some Stalkers will skip Hide. This is the 'classic' argument from Live, YMMV on if you think this is a serious issue or not.
• The Code makes this a nightmare. IIRC, the Homecoming Dev Team (and others with the code) have looked at this and it is somewhere on the spectrum of 'not being worth the effort' and 'this could break a LOT of things'.

My personal opinion is this: If they were so inclined, the homecoming Dev team should consider a hard look at all of the primary powers in the secondary. I think there is the possibility of data-mining, to look at (for level 50 builds)

1. For "identical" primary and secondary sets, how often is the T1 skipped in the primary?
2. For "non-identical" primary and secondary sets, how often is the T1 only single-slotted?

The first point should approximate relative (perceived) utility between the first two power choices (in the same set); the second is a crude estimate of utility of a power. The second is pretty crude, because some secondary T1 don't need additional slots to do their thing (e.g. Stalker's Hide, or some other Defense & Resist powers) but for attacks this should be a relatively good measure.

 

This sort of first pass should be able to identify the specific secondaries where the player base has made some sort of assessment of the relative utility of powers, and perhaps plan updates.

 

Frankly: there are certain classes of powers that should make it somewhat obvious (to veteran players) that certain T1 powers are of extremely limited use in the game. For my Inf, I find single target immobilizes to be the powers that are among the least useful (see my above comment about the Traps secondary). I really wish that the Traps secondary swapped the T1 and the T2.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Everyone wants a free option.  

[JayboH]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

• TPTB won't let this happen, because some Stalkers will skip Hide. This is the 'classic' argument from Live, YMMV on if you think this is a serious issue or not.
• The Code makes this a nightmare. IIRC, the Homecoming Dev Team (and others with the code) have looked at this and it is somewhere on the spectrum of 'not being worth the effort' and 'this could break a LOT of things'.

So they already said it's not going to happen in a past discussion.

 

Alright then.

[aethereal]

I'm amused that Stalker skipping Hide is such a huge problem.  You can make petless Masterminds!  I 100% guarantee you that a Stalker without hide can be better than a petless Mastermind.

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

I'm amused that Stalker skipping Hide is such a huge problem.  You can make petless Masterminds!  I 100% guarantee you that a Stalker without hide can be better than a petless Mastermind.

See I would be making hideless stalkers..  
Don't want to derail, but Petless and semi petless is a good litmus test for new Mastermind arch types and play styles.. Imagine if Masterminds just had different mechanics based on the number of pets you had. Imagine that if you only took ONE Tier of Pet that it was as strong as all 3 pets. EG Imagine having 3 Tier one pets that were level 50 and just had a bit more attacks and YOU also had more attacks and other game mechanics..  

Personally I see a lot of different play styles you can do if they changed how Masterminds worked.  You would see players some new unique attack powers that replaced pets maybe.. You would see a bunch of players with less pets running around, but I think also many other players would be happy with that. Having 3 masterminds on your team now with less pets would make many people happy..  

 

You take away a pet you get this other benefit..  Think how the VEATs work where they can have a mix of old and new sets.. 

 

But the great thing also... You keep the Original Mastermind as well. You want to be old school.. Great.. Nothing changes for you. 

Also remember Thugs Mastermind created Dual Pistol set..  

 

Finally my Petless and Semi Petless ( usually last pet for thematic reasons ) are doing 8/3 setting.  There are level 50 players running around with ALL the travel powers on SOs. Or Semi Frankenslotted but really have no clue about game mechanics or the purpose of Invention Sets, Procs and so on.

[skoryy]

On 7/27/2021 at 7:46 AM, tidge said:

Every once in a while the issue of "multiple choice in the secondary" comes up... search fu should include "skipping T1". There are a few standard replies:

• TPTB won't let this happen, because some Stalkers will skip Hide. This is the 'classic' argument from Live, YMMV on if you think this is a serious issue or not.
• The Code makes this a nightmare. IIRC, the Homecoming Dev Team (and others with the code) have looked at this and it is somewhere on the spectrum of 'not being worth the effort' and 'this could break a LOT of things'.

My personal opinion is this: If they were so inclined, the homecoming Dev team should consider a hard look at all of the primary powers in the secondary. I think there is the possibility of data-mining, to look at (for level 50 builds)

1. For "identical" primary and secondary sets, how often is the T1 skipped in the primary?
2. For "non-identical" primary and secondary sets, how often is the T1 only single-slotted?

The first point should approximate relative (perceived) utility between the first two power choices (in the same set); the second is a crude estimate of utility of a power. The second is pretty crude, because some secondary T1 don't need additional slots to do their thing (e.g. Stalker's Hide, or some other Defense & Resist powers) but for attacks this should be a relatively good measure.

 

This sort of first pass should be able to identify the specific secondaries where the player base has made some sort of assessment of the relative utility of powers, and perhaps plan updates.

 

Frankly: there are certain classes of powers that should make it somewhat obvious (to veteran players) that certain T1 powers are of extremely limited use in the game. For my Inf, I find single target immobilizes to be the powers that are among the least useful (see my above comment about the Traps secondary). I really wish that the Traps secondary swapped the T1 and the T2.

 

Single target immobilizes - basically, blasters - are useful for halting down runners.  I also wouldn't be against them getting a balance pass to put them all comparable to Ring Of Fire.

[Nemeroff]

On 7/27/2021 at 7:46 AM, tidge said:

...

• The Code makes this a nightmare. IIRC, the Homecoming Dev Team (and others with the code) have looked at this and it is somewhere on the spectrum of 'not being worth the effort' and 'this could break a LOT of things'.

"Spaghetti code," if I'm not mistaken.

[Ston]

The main reason I would disagree with this is because it would blur the line between primary and secondary powersets. I think of it as your character being more talented and gifted in using their primary powers than their secondary powers. That being said, it makes sense that they will take a longer time to train their secondary abilities. 

 

My worry is that this request won't stop at the lvl 1 t2 option. I think it will evolve into asking to make the secondary t3 power available at lvl 2, etc etc. There should be a clear distinction between your two sets and I think locking lvl 1 power choice to the t1 is one of the best ways to do it. 

 

If you want to have entangling and flash arrow available at lvl 1, you need to play a Defender who will be more skilled in using that powerset than a corrupter, mastermind, or controller.

[RogueWolf]

On 7/25/2021 at 10:05 AM, Tiger Shadow said:

It sounds like the solution is to make all T1s as useful as Entangling Arrow.

 

^THIS

 

I don't like the idea of skipping the first power entirely. I can see some broken builds come out of that. But the uselessness of many tier 1 secondary powers make too many sets rather unattractive.

[plainguy]

2 hours ago, Cirque said:

The main reason I would disagree with this is because it would blur the line between primary and secondary powersets. I think of it as your character being more talented and gifted in using their primary powers than their secondary powers. That being said, it makes sense that they will take a longer time to train their secondary abilities. 

 

My worry is that this request won't stop at the lvl 1 t2 option. I think it will evolve into asking to make the secondary t3 power available at lvl 2, etc etc. There should be a clear distinction between your two sets and I think locking lvl 1 power choice to the t1 is one of the best ways to do it. 

 

If you want to have entangling and flash arrow available at lvl 1, you need to play a Defender who will be more skilled in using that powerset than a corrupter, mastermind, or controller.

I think this is more of thematic concept.  Personally I think my toons are great with all their powers..  Thus the choice option request.

So you are aware VEAT actually have this option already.  They have 2 choices for each power level on both primary and secondary.. 
 

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, RogueWolf said:

 

^THIS

 

I don't like the idea of skipping the first power entirely. I can see some broken builds come out of that. But the uselessness of many tier 1 secondary powers make too many sets rather unattractive.

Again. .No one said SKIPPING Anything..  

Please re-read what I have posted and said repeatedly..  It would be very foolish of me to ask to remove a power option completely.. 

 

I clearly said choice several times..  

[plainguy]

5 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Single target immobilizes - basically, blasters - are useful for halting down runners.  I also wouldn't be against them getting a balance pass to put them all comparable to Ring Of Fire.

See for me a shot in the back usually just kills the runners..  Plus they always come back..  

Also it depends on play style.. 

For me If MY BUILD can't do 8/3 setting it is garbage. I don't care about anyone else's build.. I don't care if they are running SO's and have all the travel powers..  

On average,  on a full team 3 defense capped players is all you need to steam roll.  Everyone else is extra DPS..  Then add in incarnates.. 

I go for AOE attacks and a few single target attacks to pick off runners.. 

PERSONALLY I like Disruption arrow over Entanglement Arrow for the AOE and stun IO..  

 

 

[TheZag]

We cant remove the player being forced to take the t1 of their secondary.  But we can add it not being automatically selected so you can click on it and feel like you chose it.

[skoryy]

6 hours ago, plainguy said:

For me If MY BUILD can't do 8/3 setting it is garbage.

 

For you, sure.   For me, I blapper at +3/x6 and I'm happy enough with the results and not having to hold/immobilize too many runners if my stronger ranged attacks are on cooldown.  We're all looking for different things out of our powersets.  

[RogueWolf]

20 hours ago, plainguy said:

Again. .No one said SKIPPING Anything..  

Please re-read what I have posted and said repeatedly..  It would be very foolish of me to ask to remove a power option completely.. 

 

I clearly said choice several times..  

 

Semantics. Saying that you don't have to take the T1 power means letting players skip it to take something else. Effectively the same thing.

 

It's a reasonable limitation, IMO. Sometimes it's an annoying one that makes some sets not very attractive (at least to me and probably you). Though entangling arrow was not a great example to give because of the debuff attached to it. My bugaboo is with being forced to take a power that only does immobilize with minor to moderate dmg and no real useful utility along with it, like Fire. The knockbacks are MUCH better. Or when the power works into the mechanics of the set like with Time, that makes it work.

 

Just slowing a single Lt or Minion down is next to worthless. If the power had better synergy with a higher level secondary, that could be interesting (again, like with Time Manipulatiion). TBH I always end up skipping the AOE immobilize, too, unless it has a secondary attached to it. Ranged Immobilize alone is just not very useful (at least to me, without something along with it).

Edited July 30, 2021 by RogueWolf

[PainX]

15% res debuff hmmm wanna trade it for my call swarm? or really any of my dom t1's if you like

[tidge]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:43 AM, skoryy said:

 

Single target immobilizes - basically, blasters - are useful for halting down runners.  I also wouldn't be against them getting a balance pass to put them all comparable to Ring Of Fire.

 

Let me know how that works on Warwolves.

[skoryy]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Let me know how that works on Warwolves.

 

That's why you either target their runners first or pick up a hold.

[arcane]

I feel comfortable stating that the current devs as they are now would never redo masterminds specifically to intentionally make petless masterminds better.

[aethereal]

19 minutes ago, arcane said:

I feel comfortable stating that the current devs as they are now would never redo masterminds specifically to intentionally make petless masterminds better.

 

I mean, sure.  Nobody should specifically say, "Stalkers, and nobody else, should get a choice of level one secondary powers."

 

But if we did want to generally give everyone a choice of level one secondary powers, "But Stalkers might skip Hide" is a super weak argument.  Hide just isn't that crucial to Stalkers, and there are a million opportunities to skip important powers in this game.  You can play a Plant Control character and skip Seeds of Confusion.  You can play Energy Melee and skip Total Focus.  You can play a Tanker and skip your mez protection.  There are a million ways to avoid good powers in this game, and nobody thinks it's a huge problem.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/28/2021 at 9:33 PM, plainguy said:

See I would be making hideless stalkers..  
Don't want to derail, but Petless and semi petless is a good litmus test for new Mastermind arch types and play styles.. Imagine if Masterminds just had different mechanics based on the number of pets you had. Imagine that if you only took ONE Tier of Pet that it was as strong as all 3 pets. EG Imagine having 3 Tier one pets that were level 50 and just had a bit more attacks and YOU also had more attacks and other game mechanics..  

Personally I see a lot of different play styles you can do if they changed how Masterminds worked.  You would see players some new unique attack powers that replaced pets maybe.. You would see a bunch of players with less pets running around, but I think also many other players would be happy with that. Having 3 masterminds on your team now with less pets would make many people happy..  

 

You take away a pet you get this other benefit..  Think how the VEATs work where they can have a mix of old and new sets.. 

 

But the great thing also... You keep the Original Mastermind as well. You want to be old school.. Great.. Nothing changes for you. 

Also remember Thugs Mastermind created Dual Pistol set..  

 

Finally my Petless and Semi Petless ( usually last pet for thematic reasons ) are doing 8/3 setting.  There are level 50 players running around with ALL the travel powers on SOs. Or Semi Frankenslotted but really have no clue about game mechanics or the purpose of Invention Sets, Procs and so on.

Not to derail but talking so much about MM and pets and minion power as much as has been in this thread brings up something rather obvious to me as one who plays a wide variety of online games.

 

In Path of Exile especially, the power of the Minion skill gems can vary widely especially with build investment in a characters passive enhancement tree. But the important thing is that those minions are never under powered against the games mobs if they are build well. They also have their minions in far better categories, such as the short duration cannon fodder types that do tons of damage, but die quickly, or the Golems that are damn near unkillable, and will almost always still be alive when aoe damage kills off your character standing around like ok take 5 rock and cliff. And a whole lot of inbetween types to choose from and work with. They tend to be a popular although not top end build in every league there because while they wont break records they can be built fairly well with only moderate gear investments and the tree is flexible enough to make sure even new comers can stumble their way to passive support skills to buff their minions so they dont fall behind the content power curve.

 

Here in CoH nothing we can do really makes our actual pets hold their own against a lvl 54 GM or AV without constant support from us, because those who outright admit they dont play and basically hate the passive game play of minion summoners feel its like playing with bots, and that botters should be punished. Yet we all are familiar with the power of some of the more limited consumable pets like the Shivan Shard and War Wolf, both of whom are EB level strong and will last quite well against no few AVs even if all you are doing is beating on the AV to. Give them even modest healing and they last till the timer runs down on them just about every time ime.

 

The reality is the strongest pet of a MM should be on par with an EB at of +4 to the players own level. Over in Guild Wars 1 a game that was kin and peer in the NC soft mmo circle had the necormancers elite flesh golem manifest at levels higher then the necromancer themself, and that game made it very easy to have such a strong minion while still having plenty of personal power in your characters skill selection. Rangers there to had an equal level pet that if it was raised as a tank could take a hell of a beating against even the biggest and baddest bosses if given abit of support.

 

Here though, you see it in every threat talking about minion power, those who dont and wont ever play MM do not want minions to be stronger then player characters, even though that is exactly what a minion masters minions should be. A fine tuned MMs pets should be stronger then a team of SO slotted heroes. It should take the fine tuning of sets to let a player be stronger then summons. Summoning should be a new player friendly easy entry AT that allows them to easily get into high end content safely and swiftly as in just about every other MMO I have played uses them as. Only here in CoH do they seem to be basically hated on and held back by such a vocal opposition.