Can we remove all secondary level 1 choices as a must have ? I am talking Entangling Arrow here

[plainguy]

Some of these MUST pick level 1 powers are just of no value at higher levels for some builds and players.  Some builds I would love to have Aid Other and Aid Self but I can't without removing another better 1 slotted power from the build. 

I am sure many others have similar scenarios. 

 

 

[Apparition]

Uhh… Entangling Arrow does a healthy dose of -res.  It’s no longer a skippable power, IMO.  Also, Captain Powerhouse tried letting Tankers choose between tier one and tier two secondary powers a couple of years ago, and it blew up spectacularly.  Not going to happen, sadly.

[Greycat]

The game shouldn't be adjusted to make min/maxing even easier, no.  We already don't have to take prerequisites for travel powers, which frees up power picks and (potentially) slots. We get Fitness for free. About the only way to make min/maxing even cheesier would be getting rid of all power level restrictions and prerequisite restrictions.

 

It's one power which you don't even have to add slots to if you don't want. It's not the end of the world to actually have to make *a* choice or have *a* restriction somewhere while creating a character.

[JayboH]

Agreed with Apparition, I would never skip Entangling.  It's not about the immobilization.

[Marbing]

Entangling arrow is great. 

 

Also, this is one of the values over primary vs secondary. The ability to skip the T1.

[Tiger Shadow]

It sounds like the solution is to make all T1s as useful as Entangling Arrow.

[Glacier Peak]

Just from looking at the title of this thread, the suggestion is to change the way everyone else plays to match the way the original poster wants to play.

 

Hard pass.

[arcane]

8 hours ago, Greycat said:

The game shouldn't be adjusted to make min/maxing even easier, no.  We already don't have to take prerequisites for travel powers, which frees up power picks and (potentially) slots. We get Fitness for free. About the only way to make min/maxing even cheesier would be getting rid of all power level restrictions and prerequisite restrictions.

 

It's one power which you don't even have to add slots to if you don't want. It's not the end of the world to actually have to make *a* choice or have *a* restriction somewhere while creating a character.

Yeah I’m also ofc an advocate of “difficult choices and tradeoffs make games better” and not bulldozing everything that stands in the way of the perfect tankmage.

[arcane]

See this referred to as “not an option” here.

[aethereal]

44 minutes ago, arcane said:

See this referred to as “not an option” here.

In fairness, I think he meant that it was not an option to selectively remove the forced-first-power-pick on Tanker secondaries, not that it was not an option to remove it for the whole game.

 

Not that I'm in favor of this proposal.  I'm not.  But I think it's at least a little worth discussing how few places this game does use speedbump powers as a balance point, and whether that's a particularly desirable balance lever.  There are only a few places in the game where you might be forced to take a power you don't really want to gate access to ones you do want.  Boxing/Kick.  Secondary T1s.  Then maybe a few pool T3's.  Practically, I think that's about it (like, there's probably SOMEONE who wants Tactics but just hates Maneuvers and Assault, but not a lot of people).  It's not a very favored kind of balance and for good reason.

[SwitchFade]

Since it seems that there have been several responses that were glib, here's some information on why it will likely not happen.

 

Devs have commented before that the secondary mandatory T1 choice is kind of baked in to how the set system works and changing it would be very difficult and time consuming. For this reason it's basically a non-starter.

 

Not that I advocate one way or another, but thought that some responses from some people were less than cordial.

[Haijinx]

54 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Since it seems that there have been several responses that were glib, here's some information on why it will likely not happen.

 

Devs have commented before that the secondary mandatory T1 choice is kind of baked in to how the set system works and changing it would be very difficult and time consuming. For this reason it's basically a non-starter.

 

Not that I advocate one way or another, but thought that some responses from some people were less than cordial.

 

I think some people get frustrated at why everyone seems to want to skip all these primary and secondary powers?

 

To take what?

 

Its like college when people wanted to count basic basket-weaving towards their Mechanical Engineering degree. 

[oedipus_tex]

Most developer teams actually agree that it would great to have this. The thing preventing it is the technology, not concerns about balance. It would be gold on Dominators, some Controllers/Corruptors/Masterminds, and Tankers, who are often pushed into powers that aren't worth long term putting on the power bar.

 

Folks are right about Entangling Arrow though. It was a stinker of a power for a long time, but the new version is worth taking.

Edited July 26, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[tidge]

21 hours ago, Tiger Shadow said:

It sounds like the solution is to make all T1s as useful as Entangling Arrow.

 

Can we look at the Mastermind /Traps Web Grenade next? (Or has this already been given the Entangling Arrow treatment?)

[GraspingVileTerror]

Traps is still on the back-burner, as I understand it.  It's got three SUPER solid Powers in it, meaning that the duds are easier to ignore while prioritizing other things which the Dev in question is more personally interested in.

[plainguy]

21 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Just from looking at the title of this thread, the suggestion is to change the way everyone else plays to match the way the original poster wants to play.

 

Hard pass.

I am not saying to REMOVE the POWER.. I am saying remove the MUST pick this power.. 

2 different things.. 

[plainguy]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:21 PM, Apparition said:

Uhh… Entangling Arrow does a healthy dose of -res.  It’s no longer a skippable power, IMO.  Also, Captain Powerhouse tried letting Tankers choose between tier one and tier two secondary powers a couple of years ago, and it blew up spectacularly.  Not going to happen, sadly.

 This does not make sense..

 

You are saying that having the OPTION to pick OR NOT to pick a level one power over another is an issue ? 

Giving the player base a CHOICE is a bad thing ? 

Further my play style does not require entanglement arrow. I do great  without it. Zero issues..  I would rather give that up over disruption arrow.

Edited July 26, 2021 by plainguy

[plainguy]

On 7/25/2021 at 3:48 AM, Greycat said:

The game shouldn't be adjusted to make min/maxing even easier, no.  We already don't have to take prerequisites for travel powers, which frees up power picks and (potentially) slots. We get Fitness for free. About the only way to make min/maxing even cheesier would be getting rid of all power level restrictions and prerequisite restrictions.

 

It's one power which you don't even have to add slots to if you don't want. It's not the end of the world to actually have to make *a* choice or have *a* restriction somewhere while creating a character.

Its not min / max. It just picking up one power over another..  
Cheesier ?  I am  not trying to cheese or get over. I am just looking for another option over the level 1 choices.. 

Not that I am offended by this but this is pretty weak accusation and tossing out labels for no reason.

[plainguy]

17 hours ago, arcane said:

See this referred to as “not an option” here.

First off you pointed me towards Page 2 in which pretty much showed players in favor of the change.

 

But I am not asking to swap powers.. I am asking to have the OPTION to pick T2 instead of T1.. 

 

So you pointing to that thread to prove a point on what I am asking is incorrect.. As I am not asking that.. 

[plainguy]

Maybe I wasn't clear..

 

I am NOT SAYING REMOVE any powers.. I am NOT SAYING Swap out any powers for another.. 

I am asking the OPTION to pick the T2 instead of being forced into the T1 on Secondary.  Again like we pretty much have on ALL Primary sets.

 

I thought my original post was clear but I guess it was not.  

[srmalloy]

13 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Its not min / max. It just picking up one power over another..  

It's not having to "use up" a power pick on a power you don't want, enabling you to spend it on another power you do want elsewhere in your build, but which you were unable to pick because you were out of power choices. That counts as 'min-maxing' in my book.

[plainguy]

23 hours ago, JayboH said:

Agreed with Apparition, I would never skip Entangling.  It's not about the immobilization.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding.. 

I reposted down below without changing the original post

 

[plainguy]

25 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's not having to "use up" a power pick on a power you don't want, enabling you to spend it on another power you do want elsewhere in your build, but which you were unable to pick because you were out of power choices. That counts as 'min-maxing' in my book.

Okay.. We have 2 different books. 

I don't really get this whole pious stance on Min and Maxing when it is clear that horse has already left the stable. 

I also don't get how having the option to not pick a T1 power that everyone thinks is so great is actually me Min and Maxing..

Technically by the comments I am actually Mining myself so I don't see the complaint here. 

Then you should be fighting to get IOs removed and Procs removed..  Please look at the 22+ page of the proc thread.. 

 

Mind you I am not even bringing up Incarnate powers as this thread evolves into a min and maxing and how should want entanglement arrow.

 

So basically I want to remove a power several have posted is great and then I am also accused of min and maxing..  

Talk about a witch hunt here.

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by plainguy

[JayboH]

I suppose the topic can be locked since it's been determined it is not happening due to it being too much work.

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

I suppose the topic can be locked since it's been determined it is not happening due to it being too much work.

 

Oddly enough the Developers didn't see it too much work to switch T1 and T2 for Tankers.  So why would the OPTION of allowing to take a T2 on a secondary set be so difficult. 

Again this is already an OPTION for Primary powers.

 

I replied to some of the comments and even tried to explain my point as it seems some posters misunderstood the request. 

 

At the end of the day its the suggestion forum and they don't go running around locking threads because you don't like the suggestion or what is being said.

 

I mean this is what you said

On 7/25/2021 at 10:37 AM, JayboH said:

Agreed with Apparition, I would never skip Entangling.  It's not about the immobilization.

It has NOTHING to do with the suggestion I posted. You are pretty much telling me why I MUST have that power.. You pretty much ignored what I said and just made it about your own point. I understand you feel the need to give me a lesson on importance of entanglement arrow but you should at least address the suggestion.

Maybe explain or expand on why having the option to pick a T2 instead of T1 is a bad thing ? What sort of cataclysmic effect it would have ? Is there some power creep you are aware of ? 

We only can pick 5 power pools and some are locked out when others are picked. So not picking a T1 power will enable a player to pick something in a power pool at most. 

Again I roll back to my statement above. Why does having the Option in a primary not break the game or not create the label of maxing but having that option in the secondary suddenly make you a bad person or a cheesy player.