Tank damage buff

[00Troy00]

Someone told me the other day that tanks got a damage buff a while back that made then comparable to brutes. Is this true, and do certain powersets take advantage of this buff better than others?

[ZorkNemesis]

A couple patches ago, Tankers had their base damage increased (to a 0.9 modifier I think) and their AoE attacks in general had their attack radius and max targets increased as well.  This also removed the "bruising" -res debuff on all Tanker T1s as it was no longer neceasary.  I don't play either AT enough to know how much closer it brings the two, but the bigger AoEs on Tankers is a pretty big deal, letting them hit more foes from further away to keep Gauntlet taunts active and whatnot.

[nihilii]

Tankers got a damage buff from 0.8 base to 0.95 base. So about 18.75% more damage than before.

 

This benefits every Tanker equally.

When it comes to Tankers vs Brutes, powersets with native damage buffing tend to be more advantageous on Tankers than powersets with less damage buffing; because relatively, Brutes rely on their own damage buffing with Fury, and so Brutes get less out of damage buffs.

Example with numbers.

 

A normal Brute has 0.75 base damage. Enhancements add +95% to that. A Fury bar at 80 adds +160% to that.

Brute Total = 0.75 * 3.55 = 2.6625

 

A normal Tanker has 0.95 base damage. Enhancements add +95% to that.
Tanker Total = 0.95 * 1.95 = 1.8525

 

In this scenario, the Brute does (2.6625 - 1.8525) / 1.8525 = 43% more damage than the Tanker.

 

-

Now if we take the poster child for self damage buffing: Super Strength and double-stacked Rage.

Brute has 0.75 base, +95% from enhancements, +160% from 80 Fury, +160% from 2x Rage.
Brute Total = 0.75 * 5.15 = 3.8625

Tanker has 0.95 base, +95% from enhancements, +160% from 2x Rage.
Tanker Total = 0.95 * 3.55 = 3.3725

In that scenario, the Brute does (3.8625 - 3.3725) / 3.3725 = 14.5% more damage than the Tanker.

 

As the difference starts getting that low, some players feel it's a price worth paying for the significantly higher survivability on a Tanker. Some may even feel the extra survivability on a Tanker allows them to focus more intensely on damage output, and end up outdamaging the Brute in a practical setting.

Lots of "ifs" and "buts", but bottomline: the more damage buffing in your secondary, the more you can ask yourself the question "should I make this Brute a Tanker instead".

 

Finally, Tankers also have +50% larger AoE radiuses and caps. A +50% larger PBAoE is 2.25x the surface area, so this is another significant advantage in convenience.

[arcane]

Current status quo, in summary, is:

 

Tankers don’t do quite as much damage as Brutes still, but they’re far far closer to Brute damage than Brutes are to Tanker mitigation.

[Erratic1]

43 minutes ago, arcane said:

Current status quo, in summary, is:

 

Tankers don’t do quite as much damage as Brutes still, but they’re far far closer to Brute damage than Brutes are to Tanker mitigation.

 

But if a debate ever starts suggesting Tankers are overpowered in regards to Brutes there will be hasty additions to the above to note that Tanker mitigation is overkill. 😈

[Mezmera]

Plus there's a couple of other things to consider which is advantageous to the tank. 

 

With the much better mitigation tanks can short themselves a bit still on a build and dump a bunch of procs into a few powers and get some real good damage out of certain powers.  Then they don't have to keep the pedal pressed to the metal to maintain a fury mechanic so they can get consistent strong damage from start to stop especially with the larger aoe's.  

 

Brutes are still doing just fine though.  Sure Tanks got a bit overtuned but then there's still the demi-god Blasters loitering around so how jealous can Brutes really get?

Edited September 2, 2021 by Mezmera

[MoonSheep]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:17 PM, nihilii said:

Tankers got a damage buff from 0.8 base to 0.95 base. So about 18.75% more damage than before.

 

This benefits every Tanker equally.

When it comes to Tankers vs Brutes, powersets with native damage buffing tend to be more advantageous on Tankers than powersets with less damage buffing; because relatively, Brutes rely on their own damage buffing with Fury, and so Brutes get less out of damage buffs.

Example with numbers.

 

A normal Brute has 0.75 base damage. Enhancements add +95% to that. A Fury bar at 80 adds +160% to that.

Brute Total = 0.75 * 3.55 = 2.6625

 

A normal Tanker has 0.95 base damage. Enhancements add +95% to that.
Tanker Total = 0.95 * 1.95 = 1.8525

 

In this scenario, the Brute does (2.6625 - 1.8525) / 1.8525 = 43% more damage than the Tanker.

 

-

Now if we take the poster child for self damage buffing: Super Strength and double-stacked Rage.

Brute has 0.75 base, +95% from enhancements, +160% from 80 Fury, +160% from 2x Rage.
Brute Total = 0.75 * 5.15 = 3.8625

Tanker has 0.95 base, +95% from enhancements, +160% from 2x Rage.
Tanker Total = 0.95 * 3.55 = 3.3725

In that scenario, the Brute does (3.8625 - 3.3725) / 3.3725 = 14.5% more damage than the Tanker.

 

As the difference starts getting that low, some players feel it's a price worth paying for the significantly higher survivability on a Tanker. Some may even feel the extra survivability on a Tanker allows them to focus more intensely on damage output, and end up outdamaging the Brute in a practical setting.

Lots of "ifs" and "buts", but bottomline: the more damage buffing in your secondary, the more you can ask yourself the question "should I make this Brute a Tanker instead".

 

Finally, Tankers also have +50% larger AoE radiuses and caps. A +50% larger PBAoE is 2.25x the surface area, so this is another significant advantage in convenience.

 

 

thank you for the highly informative post - are tanks and scrappers worlds apart? currently choosing between a shield scrapper or tank

 

do you also know the extent of the tank AoE increase? e.g what does a 10ft AoE become if i’m in a mob

[Apparition]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:18 PM, arcane said:

Current status quo, in summary, is:

 

Tankers don’t do quite as much damage as Brutes still, but they’re far far closer to Brute damage than Brutes are to Tanker mitigation.

 

 

Yep.  Between that and damage procs, it's gotten to the point where Brutes are seriously outclassed by Tankers now and are badly in need of a buff if Tankers don't get tuned back down some.  Since Issue 26, Page Four, I keep making Brutes and deleting them.  Meanwhile, I have a Tanker but never play him because the mitigation makes playing it as boring as watching paint dry, so I've pretty much stopped playing melee entirely outside of Hamidon raids.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Yep.  Between that and damage procs, it's gotten to the point where Brutes are seriously outclassed by Tankers now and are badly in need of a buff if Tankers don't get tuned back down some.  Since Issue 26, Page Four, I keep making Brutes and deleting them.  Meanwhile, I have a Tanker but never play him because the mitigation makes playing it as boring as watching paint dry, so I've pretty much stopped playing melee entirely outside of Hamidon raids.

 

😲

 

*RUNS AND HIDES FROM IMPENDING WAR*

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

😲

 

*RUNS AND HIDES FROM IMPENDING WAR*

 

 

They ain't wrong. But also ain't no point discussing it.

 

[ZemX]

27 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

do you also know the extent of the tank AoE increase? e.g what does a 10ft AoE become if i’m in a mob

 

It's +50% radius for sphere AoEs and +50% arc width for cone AoEs.

 

So 10ft PBAoEs like Frozen Aura or Eye of the Storm, become 15ft.  There are some exceptions, like Foot Stomp, which was already 15ft.  You can see this in City of Data: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_melee.super_strength.foot_stomp&at=tanker.

 

Look at the black bar that says "Activation Details" on the left a short ways from the top of the page.  There are three icons to the right for Foot Stomp.  If you hover over the one that looks like a red exclamation point you can see it says "Strengths Disallowed" and lists "Range" and "Radius".   This what prevents Foot Stomp from being boosted by the Tanker AoE inherent.  It is a global buff to "Radius Strength" and "Arc Strength".  And Foot Stomp ignores Radius Strength enhancement.   Any sphere AoE power you DON'T see this on though should be boosted by the Tanker inherent.

 

Note that cone attacks only get wider.  They don't hit targets that are farther from you the way sphere AoEs do because that is considered a "range" enhancement on cones, not a radius enhancement.  And melee cones generally ignore range enhancement anyway.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Note that cone attacks only get wider.  They don't hit targets that are farther from you the way sphere AoEs do because that is considered a "range" enhancement on cones, not a radius enhancement.  And melee cones generally ignore range enhancement anyway.

I don't believe this is correct. The melee cones I've tested have both an arc and a radius increase for Tankers.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

thank you for the highly informative post - are tanks and scrappers worlds apart? currently choosing between a shield scrapper or tank

 

do you also know the extent of the tank AoE increase? e.g what does a 10ft AoE become if i’m in a mob

 

Scrappers and Tankers are worlds apart. My most destructive Tanker will do the Trapdoor test (Scrapper forums for more info) in 6 minutes. The best Scrapper times are as low as 4 minutes and something. My best Pylon time is 3 minutes. A Scrapper can scrap past one minute (though usually 1:30 for the top models).

 

On the other hand Tankers do the ITF solo challenge (+4x8, enemies buffed, players debuffed) and survive it. This is not as great as it sounds since when the hell does this metric ever enter in regular gameplay? For most things Scrappers can be build sturdy enough to survive content as long as they kill it fast enough.

 

I play a Fire Armor combo because I find Fire Armor Tankers bloom super early. No waiting until level 30-40 to feel powerful or sturdy enough as Scrappers (in my experience) need to. By level 20 I'm melting swathes of enemies and laugh in the face of danger (especially with the FireArmor/Ice Melee variant).

 

It's a simple case of deciding whether to build to be more damage oriented or more sturdy.

[MoonSheep]

28 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Scrappers and Tankers are worlds apart. My most destructive Tanker will do the Trapdoor test (Scrapper forums for more info) in 6 minutes. The best Scrapper times are as low as 4 minutes and something. My best Pylon time is 3 minutes. A Scrapper can scrap past one minute (though usually 1:30 for the top models).

 

On the other hand Tankers do the ITF solo challenge (+4x8, enemies buffed, players debuffed) and survive it. This is not as great as it sounds since when the hell does this metric ever enter in regular gameplay? For most things Scrappers can be build sturdy enough to survive content as long as they kill it fast enough.

 

I play a Fire Armor combo because I find Fire Armor Tankers bloom super early. No waiting until level 30-40 to feel powerful or sturdy enough as Scrappers (in my experience) need to. By level 20 I'm melting swathes of enemies and laugh in the face of danger (especially with the FireArmor/Ice Melee variant).

 

It's a simple case of deciding whether to build to be more damage oriented or more sturdy.

 

hmm yes that's what i suspected - especially with clever placing of the scrapper crit IO i expect the damage will be quite different

 

some aspects which make it tempting to play a tank over the scrapper (even though i'm a sucker for as much damage as possible):

- center of attention, get all the buffs (woo)

- has a defined role in the team

- larger AoEs = things easier to hit

- i really enjoy lower-end TFs, those up to Yin. a shield/ice tank would have shield charge, AAO, grant cover, frost, freezing touch etc on lvl 25 TFs - pretty much fully formed. would have to wait until lvl 35 on the scrapper for shield charge

 

time to whip up a build on test 😁

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

hmm yes that's what i suspected - especially with clever placing of the scrapper crit IO i expect the damage will be quite different

 

some aspects which make it tempting to play a tank over the scrapper (even though i'm a sucker for as much damage as possible):

- center of attention, get all the buffs (woo)

- has a defined role in the team

- larger AoEs = things easier to hit

- i really enjoy lower-end TFs, those up to Yin. a shield/ice tank would have shield charge, AAO, grant cover, frost, freezing touch etc on lvl 25 TFs - pretty much fully formed. would have to wait until lvl 35 on the scrapper for shield charge

 

time to whip up a build on test 😁

 

Another thing to consider is that if I've heard it correct that Brutes don't benefit from fury affecting shield bash because it is a quasi pet and that the Scrapper version of Shield is superior in that it's inherent ability of critting isn't restricted.  I'm not for sure since I don't play either AT but my Shield tank finds shield bash to be a very effective power and that's without being able to crit most of the targets.  

Edited September 9, 2021 by Mezmera

[ZemX]

35 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I don't believe this is correct. The melee cones I've tested have both an arc and a radius increase for Tankers.

 

Hmm... I didn't notice that before but yeah, cones seem to have both range and radius properties in CoD.   What I was noticing in game was that I couldn't target cones farther away than their listed ranges, but I didn't notice if enemies up to 50% farther away past the target were also being hit.

 

Makes me want to play an Ice Melee tanker now.  Frost would be a 15ft, 135 degree cone.  And Frozen Aura becomes Foot Stomp... with ice.

[Sovera]

Just now, MoonSheep said:

 

hmm yes that's what i suspected - especially with clever placing of the scrapper crit IO i expect the damage will be quite different

 

some aspects which make it tempting to play a tank over the scrapper (even though i'm a sucker for as much damage as possible):

- center of attention, get all the buffs (woo)

- has a defined role in the team

- larger AoEs = things easier to hit

- i really enjoy lower-end TFs, those up to Yin. a shield/ice tank would have shield charge, AAO, grant cover, frost, freezing touch etc on lvl 25 TFs - pretty much fully formed. would have to wait until lvl 35 on the scrapper for shield charge

 

time to whip up a build on test 😁

 

Exactly. That's why I love my Fire Tankers and even Scrappers I feel as slow (despite maths and testing showing that they are not).

 

There's also the matter of burst. Once something is dead it cannot be made double dead, so Tanker damage is more than fine once we start thinking that Build-up + AoEs will kill most things. It's the tougher and longer fights where the damage difference shows.

 

Scrappers are definitely for maximum damage though, but Burn has a.. uhm... how to put it...

 

Lets say that Scrappers have more horsepower under the hood, but until a certain level they lack the means to let it out. Where when I level/play a Fire Tanker I can start (near) every fight either with Build-Up or Firey Embrace thus bursting for the initial seconds and then have my AoE from the secondary with Burn as a second AoE/heavy ST attack as low as Posi 1.

[MoonSheep]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Hmm... I didn't notice that before but yeah, cones seem to have both range and radius properties in CoD.   What I was noticing in game was that I couldn't target cones farther away than their listed ranges, but I didn't notice if enemies up to 50% farther away past the target were also being hit.

 

Makes me want to play an Ice Melee tanker now.  Frost would be a 15ft, 135 degree cone.  And Frozen Aura becomes Foot Stomp... with ice.

 

slotting out an ice melee tank on test as we speak following some testing of it on a scrapper, will report back..

[ZemX]

16 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Another thing to consider is that if I've heard it correct that Brutes don't benefit from fury affecting shield bash because it is a quasi pet and that the Scrapper version of Shield is superior in that. 

 

Not a Brute player but I would guess what you've heard has to do with damage caps.   Ordinarily, the pet inherits your damage buff, wherever that comes from.  So Build Up + Shield Charge works.   Fury + Shield Charge should work too.   But... Minion Pets have a 400% damage cap.   Scrappers have 500%.  Brutes have 700%.  So I guess a Brute and Scrapper who both are at their respective damage caps will end up with the Scrapper doing 50% more damage with Shield Charge just due to the difference in their damage modifiers.

 

Unless somehow the pseudo-pet can inherit the owner's damage cap.   I don't think so though.  I can see it using Minion Pet damage scale in City of Data so I would assume it also is limited by the Minion Pet damage cap.   I'm sure someone in the Brute forum would know for sure.

[Mezmera]

34 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Not a Brute player but I would guess what you've heard has to do with damage caps.   Ordinarily, the pet inherits your damage buff, wherever that comes from.  So Build Up + Shield Charge works.   Fury + Shield Charge should work too.   But... Minion Pets have a 400% damage cap.   Scrappers have 500%.  Brutes have 700%.  So I guess a Brute and Scrapper who both are at their respective damage caps will end up with the Scrapper doing 50% more damage with Shield Charge just due to the difference in their damage modifiers.

 

Unless somehow the pseudo-pet can inherit the owner's damage cap.   I don't think so though.  I can see it using Minion Pet damage scale in City of Data so I would assume it also is limited by the Minion Pet damage cap.   I'm sure someone in the Brute forum would know for sure.

 

Yes what I know from a friend is that he likes to boast that his Shield scrapper is superior to a friends Brute's version because shield bash is quite noticeably better on the scrapper.  Plus he feels that Scrapper survivability is adequate in comparison to a Brute's especially for the damage you're sacrificing.  

Edited September 9, 2021 by Mezmera

[MoonSheep]

thoughts after some testing of an ice melee/shield scrapper and shield/ice melee tank on test using an outdoor map farm..

 

scrapper:

- damage is crazy, i'm not longing for shield charge recharging as chance for scrapper crit is in frost and them slamming down Frozen Aura results in some very nice death

- at times the positioning has to be just right to get the maximum impact out of frost, sometimes in a big mob you can hit everything, sometimes only 2-3

- things die quicker than when on the tank

- perhaps feels a bit hectic?

 

tank:

- jeeeez, the AoE on frost becomes ridiculous. it hits the person in-front, to the side of you and the person you bumped into at the supermarket last week. this change alone makes the power reliably hit way more enemies everytime. you can easily hit the 16 cap of enemies again and again, it feels very fun. you might not be killing as quickly as the scrapper, but it feels powerful

- frozen aura is foot stomp 2.0 which again, makes the character *feel* strong, lovely range means things get hit easily

- using taunt on a mob then laying down an ice patch infront really bunches them up tightly for a beautiful application of frost and frozen aura

 

summary: only through playing each one in the real world will yield realistic results to make a definitive opinion, i think the biggest differentiator will be playstyle. the tank will be a bit more relaxed - positioning isn't as important, you'll likely hit a lot of things most times. the scrapper will hit hard enough to tear a hole in the space time continium, but you'll have to get your monies worth out of combat jumping in order to place yourself accurately everytime

 

potentially leaning towards the tank

 

edit: in my excitement i have realised i've rather ruined @00Troy00's thread.. sorry!

Edited September 9, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Mezmera]

26 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

- jeeeez, the AoE on frost becomes ridiculous. it hits the person in-front, to the side of you and the person you bumped into at the supermarket last week. this change alone makes the power reliably hit way more enemies everytime. you can easily hit the 16 cap of enemies again and again, it feels very fun. you might not be killing as quickly as the scrapper, but it feels powerful

 

They really amped up those tanker aoe's.  My StJ tank has always had that spinning roundhouse aoe kick that was meh that I took to slot a purple set.  Now it feels like I'm in a Van Damme triple take action shot roundhousing everything in sight.  

[PLVRIZR]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

I play a Fire Armor combo because I find Fire Armor Tankers bloom super early. No waiting until level 30-40 to feel powerful or sturdy enough as Scrappers (in my experience) need to. By level 20 I'm melting swathes of enemies and laugh in the face of danger (especially with the FireArmor/Ice Melee variant).

 

It's a simple case of deciding whether to build to be more damage oriented or more sturdy.

 

^---this.  My own version of your "Brunker" (Fire/MA variant named Martial Mayhem), breezed through Posi 1 & 2, Synapse, Yin, Numina, Manti and Citadel.  Imminently "scalable". 

 

With the tank, you get both durability and damage.

[Hjarki]

18 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

- jeeeez, the AoE on frost becomes ridiculous. it hits the person in-front, to the side of you and the person you bumped into at the supermarket last week. this change alone makes the power reliably hit way more enemies everytime. you can easily hit the 16 cap of enemies again and again, it feels very fun. you might not be killing as quickly as the scrapper, but it feels powerful

This actually surprises me. When I was referring to melee Cone AE, I was referring to things like Shadow Maul. Frost (and the narrower Fire cone as well as the Claws final attack, etc.) are actually ranged Cone AE (although traditionally they could not slot range IOs except via IO set pieces). I wouldn't have thought ranged Cone AE would be affected by the Tanker ability, although this was really little more than an assumption because I never tested those particular Cones.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I wouldn't have thought ranged Cone AE would be affected by the Tanker ability, although this was really little more than an assumption because I never tested those particular Cones.

 

None of them are.  Or at least, the one I just tried is not.

 

Here is a mostly overhead view of my Rad/Staff tanker with a pin placed at the feet of a Luddite 11ft away from her.  As you can see in this first pic, I am keying the attack but getting "Out of Range".

 

Which makes sense because that target is beyond 9ft from me.  However, his buddy that is nearer to me is well within range and when I attack him...

 

 

...only he is hit by the cone.  If its radius had really been boosted by the Tanker inherent then it would have struck the target at 11ft as well because its radius would be 13.5ft.  It should have probably hit all three targets.  I can tell you without even trying it that Eye of the Storm (10ft radius normally PBAoE) would have hit all three easily since it DOES get boosted to 15ft radius.  I hit entire x8 sized spawns with that if I am centered well enough.

 

So... I think I was right the first time and radius doesn't actually have anything to do with cone area (or at least melee cone area) even though a radius is listed.  I don't know what it's for.  And it makes sense now that you've brought up Ranged AoE cones as well.  Frost is a Ranged AoE cone and accepts both ordinary range enhancements and Ranged AoE damage IO sets (which can include range enhancement).  Range enhancement extends the range of a cone but outside of the Tanker inherent, I don't think "Radius" strength enhancement exists anywhere.  The radius would not change.