Why is the Regeneration power set not available to tanks?

[cohRock]

One of the protective sets not available to tanks is Regeneration.  I've got two theories as to why.  The first is that a regen tank would find it difficult to serve as a "damage sponge".  Peak incoming damage would overwhelm his health regeneration even with the limited resistance from Resilience.  If Resilience and the recharge time of Instant Healing were buffed sufficiently to handle this, the tank might become close to unkillable.  (Of course a Super Reflexes tank with Tough, Weave, and Maneuvers already approaches that, but still.)

 

The second theory is that something close to a Regen tank already exists, the Willpower tank.  While there are differences between Regen and Willpower, fundamentally they share a lot in common.

 

Does anyone know the actual reason Regen has never been ported to tanks?

[Glacier Peak]

I'll venture a guess? Regeneration rate is directly tied to max health. With Tanks having the highest max health, the amount of health regenerated would be unbalanced?

[Psyonico]

Yeah, so its one of two things.  either it would be really bad as a tank (because of the lack of alpha-taking ability) or it would be too good as a tank (because of what Glacier said).

 

I don't know which it would be.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Yeah, so its one of two things.  either it would be really bad as a tank (because of the lack of alpha-taking ability) or it would be too good as a tank (because of what Glacier said).

 

I don't know which it would be.

     With IOs and Incarnates involved I'm going to hazard the answer is:

 

 

 

Yes 🤪

 

     More specifically if a set can more drastically differ in performance from an all SO build at 50 and one decked out in a high-end IO build I'm not sure what that set would be and a Tanker would magnify that effect overall my gut tells me.  

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts and clarity

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     With IOs and Incarnates involved I'm going to hazard the answer is:

Yes 🤪

 

 

I'm actually working on an MA/Regen brute in which the goal is to be able to be an effective tank.  Would be interesting to see what a Regen/ tank could accomplish.

[Doomguide2005]

7 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

I'm actually working on an MA/Regen brute in which the goal is to be able to be an effective tank.  Would be interesting to see what a Regen/ tank could accomplish.

      I think the major difference is recharge.  Lack of global recharge via IOs really hurts.  The more health you have and hence passive regen (i.e. tanker vs scrapper) the wider the gulf between the difficulties you can handle with clicks ready vs not.

    Even with set IOs and a self Heal my DM/SR Brute was noticeably less survivable than my Claws/SR scrapper primarily I believe owing to a considerably lower passive regen on the Brute (roughly half that of the scrapper).  That gap would be far worse on a tanker.

[Erratic1]

You all are really trying to get me to make Bouncing Baby as a TW/Regen Brute who is an oversized baby with an atomic rattler

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

I'm on the side that if Regen was ported over in its current form it would be extremely strong. It's already pretty easy to slot Regen to have absurd levels of recharge and Max HP before you even hit Dull Pain, and some builds can even doublestack Dull Pain for a brief time. On a Brute, this leads to crazy healing numbers with their HP cap, something like 89 hp/sec with Dull Pain active and that's without clicking Instant Healing.

 

I'm sure with Tanker numbers it would also be very easy to stack more defense and resistance to raise your immortality line substantially high.

 

The problem with putting it on a Tanker is as a Tanker you are expected to tank, and Regen always has the underlying liability that it will get flattened by something eventually. With no debuff protection, taking the alpha from some VGs is just not in the question, even with MoG. Arachnos, Carnies, Malta, etc. I feel that is the main reason it hasn't just been ported over already.

[UpandAtom]

Cryptic took the idea of Wolverine as a Scrapper to heart.

Then Regen proved to be such a problem powerset they wanted to forget about it, and by the time Willpower rolled around everybody went 'well this is just Regen, but better' and never asked for it again.

[kiramon]

I think tank sets are hard in general; what do you base it on? Do you do it based on Non IO

like originally, but then they became gods with? Do you use the under performing sets or the top? Do you use the middle as a benchmark? Is it time to kill based? Like what do you do to make a new set that stands out as fun and interesting since the other sets already do god mode(like SR)? 
 

it’s gotta have certain things we’ve learned built into the set, and so we end up with some generic powers. We can go all out and add everything (damage auras, regen, defense, resist) and we either have too weak or too strong. 
 

it can be said about everything, but tanking(to me) is fun when your health doesn’t move.

Pretty one dimensional( whereas dps has the flow of combat, unique effects, different ways to kill a mob etc.

 

anyways, it’s not like they couldn’t make regen work/ but like you said, it’d prolly be redesigned and look a lot like willpower.

 

 

[Xenosone]

Because the ghost of jack emmert still haunts us to this day despite him not being dead. 

 

 

If you say Regen is king in a mirror three times jack emmert will appear and nerf regen again.

[Marine X]

Ran a Praetorian Energy Melee / Regen Brute to level 50++++ and found that he could handle almost anything.... till I ended up on a 6 Person Dr. Kahn Taskforce at +4 x 8 as the Defacto Tank. I did get a start on finally earning the Debt Badges, lol. The Reichsman at that difficulty level just kicked Regen's Butt. Not sure if a Tanker version would be all that much better because with Tough, Weave, Manuevers, Combat Jumping and nearly Perma Moment of Glory, all well slotted, he and the AV summons could still chew through the Hit Points. We did finish it though. They just had to keep reviving me to continue the Fight.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Marine X

[Sovera]

I don't see regen doing anything other than crumble once not facing Council. So I'm not sure why you'd want to inflict it on Tankers.

 

If you want Regen go WP and heal for 90+ HP a second with one enemy in range. Or 100-ish with Bio in Efficient Adaptation.

[PainX]

wanna do a trade? regen for you ill take stone melee so i can make it on a manly toon like a scrapper i can allready hear it boom booom boooooooom infinite powah!

[cohRock]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:05 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

      I think the major difference is recharge.  Lack of global recharge via IOs really hurts.  The more health you have and hence passive regen (i.e. tanker vs scrapper) the wider the gulf between the difficulties you can handle with clicks ready vs not.

    Even with set IOs and a self Heal my DM/SR Brute was noticeably less survivable than my Claws/SR scrapper primarily I believe owing to a considerably lower passive regen on the Brute (roughly half that of the scrapper).  That gap would be far worse on a tanker.

I don't follow you, DG.  As far as I have seen, brute damage avoidance is equal for both brutes and scrappers.  What makes brutes more robust is their higher max HP, which essentially amplifies the various modes (resistance, defense, and regen).

 

That said, I do agree that recharge is a significant factor for the regen set.  Both Dull Pain (360 sec) and Instant Healing (650 sec) have long recharge times on their own.  Since they are the primary in-set amplifiers of peak protection., higher recharge is a good thing.  Moment of Glory is shorter (240 sec), but it only lasts 15 seconds nowadays.  So having a lot of global recharge would help survivablity a lot.

[Doomguide2005]

     @cohRockYeah, it's kind of rattling around in my brain ...

Maybe it's just a loose bolt or two.  

But basically I think it's a Regeneration set problem in general which would get amplified the most with Tankers.  That is when your clicks are ready to go your survivability is at its greatest.  You can handle 'max' difficulty (whatever that is for you and your playstyle).  When your clicks are on cool down you can handle 'min' difficulty.  The difference between min and max grows greatest when your health is greatest.  In general that will happen on a Tanker with a lot of +max health and high recharge build.  Followed by Brutes, Scrappers then Stalkers.  I'm not sure if it's a real problem or just "if you play Regen, this is an issue you'll have to deal with" problem.   And that is you'll have a tough time finding a satisfactory notoriety setting.  A setting on 'max' will be completely slaughter you when your survivability ebbs to 'min'  and I suspect that gap might be rather large on a Tanker.  Making for a very stop and start style that most teams aren't going to want to engage in (unless you're running with a bunch of Trappers perhaps 😜).

Does that even begin to make sense?  Though as I read this pretty sure it's at best only tangentially related to your OP.

 

Might be as simple as they wish to 'fix regen' before porting it.

[ForeverLaxx]

It will probably take a good measure of -regen debuff resistance before you could even consider making the set into a Tanker primary. Either that, or port over and tweak the Sentinel version for Tanks, but I've heard from more than few people that they don't like Sentinel Regen due to the different feel and playstyle that version uses despite being the best version of Regen in the game. I can understand this viewpoint because I don't like New Energy Melee even if it's undeniably better than Old Energy Melee but I won't raise that horse from its grave just to start kicking it all over again.

 

Right now, original Regen needs -regen resistance somewhere. We should probably work on getting Regen in a better spot before thinking about giving it to another AT.

[kiramon]

9 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It will probably take a good measure of -regen debuff resistance before you could even consider making the set into a Tanker primary. Either that, or port over and tweak the Sentinel version for Tanks, but I've heard from more than few people that they don't like Sentinel Regen due to the different feel and playstyle that version uses despite being the best version of Regen in the game. I can understand this viewpoint because I don't like New Energy Melee even if it's undeniably better than Old Energy Melee but I won't raise that horse from its grave just to start kicking it all over again.

 

Right now, original Regen needs -regen resistance somewhere. We should probably work on getting Regen in a better spot before thinking about giving it to another AT.

-Regen is really just an anti-fun mechanic. Not even sure -regen should exist in PvE.