Focused Feedback: Stone Melee - Changes and Proliferation

[Wavicle]

12 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Well, for Spines, you use Spine in melee and it's part of it's ST rotation.  Focus for Claws.

 

 

Spines uses impale because it has nothing better. Impale is still bad.

 

Claws is the only melee set with a ranged attack that isn’t pretty bad, and it doesn’t get build up, as I already mentioned.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Wavicle

[Super Atom]

51 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Well, for Spines, you use Spine in melee and it's part of it's ST rotation.  Focus for Claws.

 

 

 

Serpents Reach and Focused Burst / Repulsing Torrent.

 

Three more ranged in melee that aren't terrible.

 

That said, i don't really think hurl boulder is the hill to die on. It's not terrible but it's not good either. It's not gonna tip Stone Melee one way or the other. Fault/Tremor still can though.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Super Atom

[Croax]

Why can't we have another good set like claws? Why can Hurl Boulder not be a viable attack? Do we need to make it with a downside?

And i certainly do not want a Blaster Nuke instead. Just a attack that i can include in my builds. Look at the great work the devs did with Energy Melee. I have the feeling that i need every power in that set. So i have to make a choice. That feels good and impactful. Hurl Boulder is a easy skip as it is right now.

When you design powers you have formulas and 'power budget'. If you tax the power too high, because it is ranged, has knockback and -flight, it will end up bad. Maybe you can tweak around these stuff and get rid of the -flight or decrease the knockback, limit the range. Then it could be possible to increase the damage or decrease animation time without breaking the the game.

 

I wanted to give feedback on a powerset that i want to be comparable to the good powersets in the game. 

 

And the more concerning point has not been addressed yet: Low overall damage because of the smashing damage type.

[SuperPlyx]

First let me say, I like the set for stalkers, but it is a bit "middle of the road" damage wise.

I am very hesitant to get near the numbers, there is a lot more smarter people on here for that but a quick look seems to show the set is on the weaker side of things.

 

Taken from the character creation screen, level 50, average damage numbers

Average Damage / Damage Type / Secondary effect:

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by SuperPlyx
spelling

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Spines uses impale because it has nothing better. Impale is still bad.

 

Claws is the only melee set with a ranged attack that isn’t pretty bad, and it doesn’t get build up, as I already mentioned.

 

Which is why, for Spines, it's range attack isn't bad 😛

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

Serpents Reach and Focused Burst / Repulsing Torrent.

 

Three more ranged in melee that aren't terrible.

 

That said, i don't really think hurl boulder is the hill to die on. It's not terrible but it's not good either. It's not gonna tip Stone Melee one way or the other. Fault/Tremor still can though.

 

 

Focused Burst looks awesome!  Last I recall it was terrible.  I don't recall Serpents Reach as it's been awhile since I played Staff.

[Croax]

Thank you @SuperPlyx for that table. here you can see why i compared the set to ice all the time. Number wise you might get the feeling they are comparable but then again, it is cold instead of smashing AND the numbers for the AoE attacks are very bad (damage and radius, cone area). In direct comparison to energy one might get the feeling that energy is overtuned but due to the Energy Focus stack mechanic and reduced crits on 2 powers it is again balanced. Stone on the other hand is underperforming after the proliferation. At least compared to the top tier sets like Street Justice, Energy Melee, Ice Melee, or even Electric Melee.

[aethereal]

Ranged powers in Scrapper Primaries:

 

Set	Power	Damage	DPA	Recharge	Range
Claws	Focus	86.96	74.33	6.4s	40'
Kinetic	Focused Burst	102.60	51.30	8s	40'
Stone	Hurl Boulder	102.60	41.04	8s	80'
Spines	Impale	119.43	49.15	8s	40'
Staff	Serpent's Reach	112.61	63.62	9s	40'

(All numbers from in-game info, so for example they aren't arcana times)

 

Claws' Focus is the standout winner on DPA (and has a shorter recharge than the rest to boot).  Hurl Boulder has the lowest DPA, substantially worse than Impale.  It does have double the range of the others.

Edited November 20, 2021 by aethereal
Did the table instead of text for better readability

[Super Atom]

5 hours ago, Croax said:

 Look at the great work the devs did with Energy Melee. I have the feeling that i need every power in that set. So i have to make a choice. That feels good and impactful. Hurl Boulder is a easy skip as it is right now.

 

Pretty much this, nothing in a set should ever be universally seen as skip-able. There is no reason that isn't completely arbitrary for a power to be "bad" and quite frankly would literally be bad game design to think otherwise. I always thought It'd be cool to have hurl boulder do a tiny bit of splash damage, not so much as a way to fix balancing or anything but more so because you're tossing a giant boulder into a crowd of people.

 

20 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Ranged powers in Scrapper Primaries:

 

Claws - Focus:  86.96 damage, 74.33 DPA, 6.4s recharge, 40' range

Kinetic Melee - Focused Burst: 102.60 damage, 51.30 DPA, 8s recharge, 40' range

Stone Melee - Hurl Boulder: 102.60 damage, 41.04 DPA, 8s recharge, 80' range

Spines - Impale:  119.43 damage, 49.15 DPA, 8s recharge, 40' range

Staff - Serpent's Reach:  112.61 damage, 63.62 DPA, 9s recharge, 40' range

 

(All numbers from in-game info, so for example they aren't arcana times)

 

Claws' Focus is the standout winner on DPA (and has a shorter recharge than the rest to boot).  Hurl Boulder has the lowest DPA, substantially worse than Impale.  It does have double the range of the others.

 

The gap between Focus and Serpent's goes from 3s difference to 1s difference in terms of recharge. (made both builds to have 160 global recharge). Even if it isn't the primary way of balancing, you still need to take IO's into account since post-50 on HC fully IO'ing is the normal. (not to say that doesn't mean focus wouldn't outpace it still) I dunno if you have that many builds prepared to compare fully IO'd versions of all those... maybe you do? 😅

Edited November 20, 2021 by Super Atom

[arcane]

By no means should Claws or EM or Fire Blast be a design standard. You focus on ensuring a set meets the average standard, not the high end, or else you’re just designing more power creep.

 

That doesn’t mean Hurl Boulder can’t/shouldn’t be better. It probably should be if it just plain sucks. And it kinda does. Purely here to say “it’s not as good as Claws/EM/etc” is bad reasoning for that buff to happen, and thinking like that is part of the reason the devs had to spend a year creating more challenging content just to counteract some of power creep’s damage to the game.

 

Let’s focus on bringing up the true duds. Hurl Boulder is a true dud. But how far we bump them up should not be informed by the tiny subset of players that only see a quarter of the game’s powers as worth anything. The fact that this set being right in the “middle of the pack” was somehow framed as a negative was kind of wrong. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by arcane

[Crimsanotic]

I think the set falls into the "middle of the pack" not because each individual power is average, but because some of them are pretty good, while others are, well, not so good. Fault, and to a lesser extent, Hurl Boulder, aren't very good in their current state. Even though Fault does damage now, it's still arguably the worst power in the entire set. Tremor just feels underwhelming, even if the ability itself is average.

Also, I think having a power or two that do stand out isn't particularly a bad thing. Seismic Smash's fast animation for it's damage, for example. It gives a reason to play one set over another that isn't purely for flavor or concept. Though I was kind of disappointed Stone Melee didn't get the new seismic gimmick of the blast set. Regardless, I do agree that balancing specifically towards the high end is not the play.

[Sovera]

Middle of the pack isn't terrible. It's a set chockful of CC and because of budget that must be paid (which is why when Fire Melee gets a pass it will go all the way to the top mostest damage further even than Energy Melee who ALSO is chockful of CC.... Okay, I just contradicted myself, nvm) it can't be best damage while also have those secondary effects.

 

Regardless all the CC is pretty good and getting an early AoE to not wait until 32 is also good. I hope we get the Tremor code transplanted to it though. But the it will be difficult to argue for a widening of the cone when it's a power that has its budget overcharged by the fact it CCs -and- damages.

[ninja surprise]

On 11/19/2021 at 3:30 PM, Crimsanotic said:

Also, I second Croax's opinions on Fault. I really wanted to like it, but the long recharge and mediocre damage leaves a lot to be desired. I don't find the line attack part of it to be too awkward to use, though I think it's the only power in this game that really works like that, so I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be used to it.

 

I think Fault is excellent: ranged AoE stun instead of the PBAoE Hand Claps on Super Strength and Electric Melee. Getting free bonus damage is nice. It isn't hard to use at all, you just pick your target and click the attack. I 5-slot the purple stun set plus a KB-KD IO.

My pipe dream wish list change for it would be to change the knockback to knock-up so I don't have to blow a KB-KD IO on it every time.

 

On one hand, I'd prefer the Scrapper and Stalker versions did more damage and less soft control than the Tank and Brute versions. (i.e. full crit damage on Seismic Smash instead of double-hold magnitude)

On the other, I'm OK with each set having a specialty with give-and-take, instead of every set doing same damage with different graphics.  I really like Hurl Boulder's 80' range and it's tremendously satisfying to see a runner and take your time pulling a boulder out of the earth, hurling it, and watching it follow the critter across the map until it inevitably hits and defeats them.  Plus it knocks pesky flyers out of the air.

 

[arcane]

It seemed obvious to me from the beginning that the new Fault would benefit less from the added damage and more from the ability to slot Ranged AoE procs. What is y’alls experience in that regard?

[Wavicle]

39 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

I think Fault is excellent: ranged AoE stun instead of the PBAoE Hand Claps on Super Strength and Electric Melee. Getting free bonus damage is nice. It isn't hard to use at all, you just pick your target and click the attack. I 5-slot the purple stun set plus a KB-KD IO.

My pipe dream wish list change for it would be to change the knockback to knock-up so I don't have to blow a KB-KD IO on it every time.

 

Pretty sure you don’t have to put kb to kd in it. It’s knockdown automatically.

[Onlyasandwich]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

It seemed obvious to me from the beginning that the new Fault would benefit less from the added damage and more from the ability to slot Ranged AoE procs. What is y’alls experience in that regard?

Wouldn't these only proc on the cone damage portion, and not the big targeted aoe? If it would apply to the whole aoe, I'm right there with you!

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Wouldn't these only proc on the cone damage portion, and not the big targeted aoe? If it would apply to the whole aoe, I'm right there with you!

I’m not 100% sure. Not a lot of powers in the game that simultaneously execute a couple click powers at once. I asked a friend about this and she cited Dual Pistols checking for slow/KB/etc procs no matter what Ammo is active, but it’s not quite the same situation, since DP ammo effects aren’t shown as an entirely separate power executing. Need to test.

 

Also, something I really don’t understand is why the two Fault powers have different recharges on City of Data. Unless the devs are trying to screw with that “internal recharge” concept again, I’d guess it’s a typo, but that’s a concern.

Edited November 21, 2021 by arcane

[Onlyasandwich]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m not 100% sure

A comparison that comes to mind is oil slick arrow, though the power of course is quite different. Targeted aoe procs don't go off on the oil portion, but -def do. When you light it, targeted aoe procs go off over the duration.

 

It's been a while since I searched this question or put it to test, so I could certainly be wrong! Initial forum delving on this isn't conclusive. In any case, behavior may be different for beta fault. I would love to hear how it tests out for anyone who is able to try.

 

 

[ninja surprise]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:42 AM, Wavicle said:

Pretty sure you don’t have to put kb to kd in it. It’s knockdown automatically.

 

My dream is real, I'm happy.

[Wavicle]

Although generally I think this is a good update, I feel like there was one missed opportunity, and that is Hurl Boulder.

 

I believe it would be worth lowering the range to 60 feet if the damage could be increased a bit.

[Croax]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Although generally I think this is a good update, I feel like there was one missed opportunity, and that is Hurl Boulder.

 

I believe it would be worth lowering the range to 60 feet if the damage could be increased a bit.

And that from someone who said a few days ago, i should not try to skip my first attack and Hurl Boulder is not meant to be used in a melee attack chain. 

 

So Stalkers and Scrappers also deserve good attacks regardless if fighting in melee or range, because these are Damage ATs?

I hear so many Blasters laughing their ass off right now...

 

But i am glad that we can agree now that Hurl Boulder is bad and there is no reason why it should be bad.

[Sovera]

So, no communication on Fault being used while having Hover/Mystic flight? It would have been nice to have a maybe, no, we'll think about it, too much work, answer.

 

Toggleon and toggleoff keybinds it is I guess.

[Sovera]

Alright, this is what I have. It's clumsy because it require two keypresses to toggle Hover on and off and introduces gaps. Change Hover for whatever flight power you're using. It's possible three keypresses are required if having Hover + Fly on as well as modifying the macro.

 

/bind lshift+1 "$$powexectoggleoff hover$$powexecname fault" - This requires two keypresses if for no other reason that when Hover/Flight/Mystic Flight/Jetpack is toggled off we are still in the air. It takes a second to drop, so, welp, a keypress, wait until we touch the ground, then a second keypress.

 

/bind 1 "$$powexecslot 1$$powexectoggleon hover" - This too requires two keypresses and will reactivate Hover/Mystic Flight/Flight/Jetpack. The powexectoggleon ensures that part will only activate if any of the above are toggled off. I suggest perhaps making more than one bind, maybe one for Tremor who doesn't care about roleplay and one more than just the first attack in case it's on cooldown.

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, Croax said:

And that from someone who said a few days ago, i should not try to skip my first attack and Hurl Boulder is not meant to be used in a melee attack chain. 

 

So Stalkers and Scrappers also deserve good attacks regardless if fighting in melee or range, because these are Damage ATs?

I hear so many Blasters laughing their ass off right now...

 

But i am glad that we can agree now that Hurl Boulder is bad and there is no reason why it should be bad.

well there is a reason. The reason is that it’s twice the range of all other melee set ranged attacks. That’s why I’m suggesting a Nerf to go along with a buff.

[Shin Magmus]

If the devs actually read this and buff Hurl Boulder to be good in Earth Melee, as it already is in Earth Assault, I'd just like to chime in and add that it would be nice if Controllers weren't fucked over and left out in the cold.  Currently you can still make an Earth/xxx/Stone Controller who gets Seismic Smash and Hurl Boulder, but it's getting harder and harder to justify that character after the buffs to Earth sets that uh... *checks notes*, every other AT in the game is getting.  While the animation speedups on Earth Control powers are nice, I would personally really like it if Controllers weren't left as THE ONLY AT IN THE GAME with "slow Hurl Boulder" after all this feedback and these changes.  I have an Earth/Nature/Stone with all the epic attacks... can I play too?