Proposed Changes for Mind Control

[Frozen Burn]

11 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Yes Mind Controllers could use a specific look into because of how little aoe damage opportunity there is with how containment works for them. 

 

Bonfire is very much broken with that hax IO.  Take that away and your Fire dom has so very little control, then you are getting spiked stupid hard and can't push out that damage.   You're handcuffed to how OP one power is when you slot a specific IO.  

 

You can take away any one of Mind's aoe controls and you can still adapt to control things while you wail away at the mobs.  

 

As for the Seeds suggestion that's just an easy identifiable starting point.  Yes the contagious confuse will still dictate that it does well.  How narrow you make the cone will have a big impact as well.  So 10 is just the starting point. 

 

Creepers and Seeds are two of the most OP controls in the game and they are on the same team, the only other really broken control needs a specific IO for.  

 

I do right well with my Fire/Fire Dom without Bonfire.  Flashfire recharges fast enough for every/every-other mob and Cinders mixed in, there is plenty of control to lock down mobs.  With Fire cages and Hot Feet melting the spawns while I blast fire at them, they melt.  Most of the time, I don't even use Bonfire with the KD proc because the animation takes to long and I've already got the mob controlled.  I really only use Bonfire when the team is rolling so fast that I need that extra bit of control because Flashfire or Cinders isn't up yet.  

 

....but that is all for another thread.

 

Any Control set, if you take away an AOE control, any player worth their salt can adapt.  Mind is no different.  But other most control sets get 4 controls:  an AOE immob (8s rech), a Fear/Sleep (40s to 60s rech), a Stun/Detention AOE (60s to 90s rech), and then the AOE hold (240s).  Illusion gets 3 (PA, Flash, and Spectral Terror) and Earth gets 5 controls (6, if you count Quicksand a "control"). 

 

However, Mind is different in that for AOE control, you get an AOE sleep for 45s rech, and an AOE Hold and an AOE confuse both for 240s rech.  Then there's Telekinesis - difficult to do anything with, considered an AOE, and 60s rech (this power really needs reworked into a a more viable/useful power too).  But the AOE sleep is mostly useless because it does no damage and if attacked too early (which often they are), they're mixed in with the others you're dealing with and can't put them back to sleep.  So that leaves you really with only 2 viable controls (AOE Hold and AOE Confuse) both on long recharges.  Yes, upper levels can get the recharge down to useable levels and the set is playable.  But comparatively, it's lacking in viable control compared to other sets.  

 

Mass Hypnosis needs to be something more like Electric's sleep, where they take damage, but when woken up but left alone, they fall back asleep.  This is all done through a "pet" mechanic of an electric field under the mobs' feet - so not sure how that would work with a "Mind" set.  But that is certainly a more useful and practical AOE sleep. 

 

Speaking of Electric - they also get an AOE confuse at T8 for 60s recharge (Synaptic Overload).  It's a chain confuse and with the Contagious Confusion Proc, they can almost certainly get an entire closely grouped mob confused as well - all on a short recharge.  No one thinks that's OP either.  Maybe it is?  But it is something that should be looked at as well, if we're looking Plant and Mind confuses.  

[laudwic]

I'm with Frozen, and to continue to beat a dead horse, AoE sleep is almost useless in group play as AoE are flying around left and right.  I understand the arguments about confuse enemies shouldn't give you xp because that isn't damage your doing, been there, read the posts arguing that ad nauseam, guess what, your still going to get complaints about using confuse powers in some groups as it reduces the xp awarded.  (The IO/Proced out blaster is going to tell you that you only ended the battle a few seconds faster and they would have destroyed them anyways - then we can go on to the also very plentiful argument that Dominators and Controllers are not that useful in the later game as everything is destroyed so quickly that controls really don't matter.)  

 

So, two powers in the set can get you grief is you use them, one of the powers, Telekinesis is niche and right up there with Black Hole from Gravity as a must skip.  Your top power is outshined by a T5 in another control set.  (Yes, we will keep bringing it up as it proves the point of why Mind should be relooked at in light of how the game has grown and changed.)

 

So, again, personal opinion, kill TK, move Mass Confusion down in TKs place, add a pet at as the T9.  My dream would be being able to use the T9 as a confuse power to take an enemy as a pet with a duration based upon the type of pet - Minion until dead or zone, LT 5 minutes or dead, Boss 2 minutes.

[Frozen Burn]

31 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

I don't think the target cap would have to be gutted that dramatically. It *still* causes aggro (which MC doesn't,) after all...

 

The aggro component of SoC is negligible.  Mostly it hits all and very little aggro on the player.  And even then, that is not a reason to give the power a "pass."  IMO. 

 

26 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

And that's where we get into the weeds with how harsh you want to go gutting it.  That's where I offered earlier that if we don't want to go pissing off a bunch of people completely then maybe adding a self buffing ability to Mass Confusion could be the better alternative along with some nerfing on Seeds.  Recharge and how the power operates on the surface should not be adjusted.  

 

Yes, a balance would need to be found.  If SoC stays at 60s rech - which with max Haste / recharge rate reduction with sets and such, you can get it to recharge in 12s - it would have to have the cap # of affected foes gutted to 5.  If the recharge was longer, say 120s base (which could be dropped to 24s with bonuses), then I think cap of 10 (even with Contagious Confusion proc) would be fair.  

 

And let's be honest - any changes to Plant Control is going to piss off those players.  But balancing still needs to happen and they will survive like we all half with other rebalancing updates.  

 

[Frozen Burn]

2 minutes ago, laudwic said:

....My dream would be being able to use the T9 as a confuse power to take an enemy as a pet with a duration based upon the type of pet - Minion until dead or zone, LT 5 minutes or dead, Boss 2 minutes.

 

That would be AWESOME!  Take over a Minion to Boss level foe as your "perma" pet (while on that map) until it dies or you zone.  Then you can take over another if it dies early or another once you zone to new map.  Love that!

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

Exactly - that's my point.  Either be fair and align Mass Confusion with it, or change up Seeds of Confusion.  So how about offering up a practical suggested solution to the problem?  If SoC shouldn't be T5 and 60s base recharge, what do you think it should be?

 

I've posted my thoughts on Mind Control several times before, but here they are again, for all the good they do:

• Mesmerize, Dominate, and Terrify buffed to follow the damage formula
• Damage delay on Levitate removed
• Terrorized status becomes a valid Containment setup
• Using Levitate on the target of Telekinesis detoggles Telekinesis and does an AoE knockdown+stun centered on the target
• Mass Confusion base accuracy increased from .8 to 1.2
• Don't worry about Seeds of Confusion, this is supposed to be a Mind Control thread
• The issue of recharge and duration of AoE controls is shared across all Control sets, and should be addressed as part of a general sweep of these sets and not as part of buffs for Mind Control specifically

[Lazarillo]

Can I just say @Vanden I don't think I've seen your proposed changes before but I think they'd be pretty danged close to perfect at maintaining the feel of the set and bringing it up on par for both ATs.  I regret that I have but one thumbs up to give!

[Kyksie]

It's probably impossible from a coding standpoint, but what if players got full XP and rewards from Confused foes?

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

I've posted my thoughts on Mind Control several times before, but here they are again, for all the good they do:

• Mesmerize, Dominate, and Terrify buffed to follow the damage formula
• Damage delay on Levitate removed
• Terrorized status becomes a valid Containment setup
• Using Levitate on the target of Telekinesis detoggles Telekinesis and does an AoE knockdown+stun centered on the target
• Mass Confusion base accuracy increased from .8 to 1.2
• Don't worry about Seeds of Confusion, this is supposed to be a Mind Control thread
• The issue of recharge and duration of AoE controls is shared across all Control sets, and should be addressed as part of a general sweep of these sets and not as part of buffs for Mind Control specifically

 

• Yes
• Meh
• Sure
• I don't take either power but whatever gets the masses to have new shinies to play with sure why not.  These shouldn't be so good they are required though, there's enough good stuff already in the set.  
• Yes and/or some kind of self buff.  The aoe confuse in Wind Control on other servers gives +endurance.  That confuse is broken good too but that extra ability is a nice quirk.  
• Yup
• Honestly they're just about right, we don't need any one control power becoming as outrageously OP as nukes currently are.  Some kind of adjustments for the Controller AT would seem adequate and someone mentioned before that damage formulas on Dom's could be raised, particularly melee.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[Aurora_Girl]

15 minutes ago, Kyksie said:

It's probably impossible from a coding standpoint, but what if players got full XP and rewards from Confused foes?

 

No. Because then there's literally no risk and all the reward. 

[tidge]

Slot one (or more) %damage enhancements in Mass Confuse, and the caster enters the running for drop tables for every enemy that takes %damage... no matter what defeats them.

 

For me, the most frustrating feature of Mind Control is the delayed damage on Levitate. As near as I can tell it exists simply so we can enjoy the ragdoll physics.

[Milk Sheik]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:23 AM, laudwic said:

I'm with Frozen, and to continue to beat a dead horse, AoE sleep is almost useless in group play as AoE are flying around left and right.  I understand the arguments about confuse enemies shouldn't give you xp because that isn't damage your doing, been there, read the posts arguing that ad nauseam, guess what, your still going to get complaints about using confuse powers in some groups as it reduces the xp awarded.  (The IO/Proced out blaster is going to tell you that you only ended the battle a few seconds faster and they would have destroyed them anyways - then we can go on to the also very plentiful argument that Dominators and Controllers are not that useful in the later game as everything is destroyed so quickly that controls really don't matter.)  

 

So, two powers in the set can get you grief is you use them, one of the powers, Telekinesis is niche and right up there with Black Hole from Gravity as a must skip.  Your top power is outshined by a T5 in another control set.  (Yes, we will keep bringing it up as it proves the point of why Mind should be relooked at in light of how the game has grown and changed.)

 

So, again, personal opinion, kill TK, move Mass Confusion down in TKs place, add a pet at as the T9.  My dream would be being able to use the T9 as a confuse power to take an enemy as a pet with a duration based upon the type of pet - Minion until dead or zone, LT 5 minutes or dead, Boss 2 minutes.

 

AoE Sleep has one very useful function, which is "oh s*** here comes a second mob from a different direction and everyone's focused right in front of us, SLEEP!"

Responding to someone else's comment about Levitate, I find it useful for getting knockable bosses (i.e. most of them) off me or others Right Freaking Now while Dominate is recharging. This is particularly useful when exemped down to a level where you don't have a lot of other powers accessible or the enhancement nerf means they don't recharge as fast. I threw a Chance for Hold into my Levitate for the obvious troller-y benefits.

[Zeraphia]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:57 AM, TheZag said:

We have a mind control/psionic assault on torchbearer that has 5k or 6k vet levels and solo'd pretty much everything on max difficulty so that makes me feel that mind control doesnt need anything.

 

But for controllers,  without a damage dealing secondary,  i can see that some would consider the set as underperforming.  I sleep 1 guy, then hold a guy, then confuse another and kill the last - on my dominator.  On a controller that same combo leaves the controlled enemies alone and loses out on most of the containment damage.  

You touch on an important point: Mind Control is borderline overpowered on Dominator and arguably the worst powerset you can take for a primary on Controller. 

 

The reason for this is because Dominator's domination enables you to double your mez magnitudes, to which the *entire* set is dedicated to doing. This allows you to do things like permanently hold AV's through PToD, permanently confuse lvl 54 PToD AV's, immediately "fear" bosses permanently into never hitting you again, instantly hold bosses in a mob, instantly confuse, if you're well IO'd enough, permanently confuse even bosses with MC, etc. 

 

On Controller however, you don't get the double magnitude buff. You sometimes get an extra magnitude with Overpower (I think), and even then the Dominator gets access to far more immediate damage. Further, of that combo you mentioned, it gets access to Drain Psyche. DP Is a critical power for shredding AV regeneration. This combination is up there for most powerful dominator builds. This however is not up there for "most powerful controller" builds anywhere to be found.

 

I think also, just because someone can be so dedicated to a theme/idea, doesn't mean that that combination is performing "fine" or "acceptable" in true reality. You can surge a lot of stuff with tons of high cost incarnate inspirations and P2W buffs with set bonuses and incarnate pets and do quite a lot of things with skilled gameplay most wouldn't even imagine is possible. 

[DZKFire]

My suggestions:

*Lower the CD of Mass Confusion to 120s, then rebalance the confuse duration.

*Make telekinesis actually useful or niche. (Yes i know some people can do "amazing" things with telekinesis, but honestly it's not that amazing. Better and easier to just play storm with hurricane)

*Maybe have a combo system where if Terrify hits sleeping foes (Mass Hypnosis), it deals extra psi damage and a guaranteed immobilize.

 

Mass, reliable CC is not a Mind Control thing, it's a Dominator perk. In fact, most of the other sets have staple AoE CC skills that are up after every mob with decent recharge slotting (FlashFire, Stalagmites, Seeds of Confusion, etc...) along with the AoE hold every set has.

Confusing and holding AVs isn't a unique thing for Mind anymore either. Dark control has access to a non-alert confuse and char from Fire ties with dominate on animation time as a hold.

 

I didn't want to mention Seeds of Confusion into detail, but it is kind of sad tbh when a Controller with contagious confusion proc (allows them to confuse bosses) outdoes a Perma-Dom's Mass Confusion. It's not the only thing either: Ice controllers & dominators with contagious confusion on Arctic Air can also do similar results.

[Fatal Tech]

I'm going to throw out an undeveloped idea I've had in the past on Mind Control . . . turn Telekinesis into Pyrokinesis and add an Enflame mechanic to the power.  The added damage may actually justify the laughably high endurance cost.  Perhaps instead of floating away, the Enflame is simply contagious.

 

The idea doesn't have to be that you are controlling the fire, it could be more that the enemy "believes" they are on fire and thus the damage could be similar to spectral wounds and heal back after the the enflame effect wears off.

 

I love my Mind/Psy/Psy Dom and don't feel he lacks for much, but Telekinesis is absolutely worthless and the fact that it's the tier 8 in the set is a joke.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Fatal Tech

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Fatal Tech said:

Telekinesis is absolutely worthless and the fact that it's the tier 8 in the set is a joke

 

I agree, but it's tier 6. Not sure that adding damage is the right fix though.

 

Does anybody remember what they changed on Telekinesis back on live? I think this was around Issue 4 or 5 but I can't find any record in the patch notes. I know they reduced the maximum targets to 5, but they also changed the mechanics. After the change I dropped the power on my Mind controller.

[Fatal Tech]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

 

I agree, but it's tier 6. Not sure that adding damage is the right fix though.

 

Does anybody remember what they changed on Telekinesis back on live? I think this was around Issue 4 or 5 but I can't find any record in the patch notes. I know they reduced the maximum targets to 5, but they also changed the mechanics. After the change I dropped the power on my Mind controller.

 

Yeah, no idea what I was thinking. 

 

Regardless, what I have always liked the idea about a Pyrokinesis type of power is that it fits the theme and adds some damage that Mind currently lacks.  Sure, I recognize that Dominator primaries don't need damage, but most of them get it in some form, whether it's their T9 pet, creepers, haunt, or better damage in their single target or aoe control powers.

 

It would also give Mind something that really sets it apart, the way Wormhole does with Gravity.

 

Like it said, it's an undeveloped idea, I don't claim to be an expert on power balance or set building.  But thematically I think it's a fun idea.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

 

I agree, but it's tier 6. Not sure that adding damage is the right fix though.

 

Does anybody remember what they changed on Telekinesis back on live? I think this was around Issue 4 or 5 but I can't find any record in the patch notes. I know they reduced the maximum targets to 5, but they also changed the mechanics. After the change I dropped the power on my Mind controller.

They changed it a couple times I think. One change was definitely later and closer to i13 because Telekinesis was definitely still a meta top tier amazing power in PvP for years. Very fond memories of this power between my Cold/Dark/Psy duelist, my Mind/Storm... all the Rad/Psy/Psy Defenders and Mind/Fire Doms winning tournaments.

 

IMO they should be giving Telekinesis attention before anything else. No reason to revamp the working powers until you’ve cleaned up the dead weight.

 

I will say again, at high risk of imminent thumbs downs, IMO the only reason people don’t appreciate Mass Confusion properly is because Seeds of Confusion is one of the most overpowered tools in the game. If people actually understood that Seeds would still be an insanely good power with double the recharge, the cooldown discrepancy with Mass Confusion wouldn’t be so material. For this reason, while I am broadly not in favor of most nerfs, a reining in of Seeds is on my shortlist of should-probably-happens.

 

Because I understand how good Mass Confusion really is, I’m very content with it as a Dominator set, so it’s obvious to me that it primarily only needs love for (1) Controller Containment synergy and (2) Telekinesis.

Edited February 5, 2022 by arcane

[Uun]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I will say again, at high risk of imminent thumbs downs, IMO the only reason people don’t appreciate Mass Confusion properly is because Seeds of Confusion is one of the most overpowered tools in the game. If people actually understood that Seeds would still be an insanely good power with double the recharge, the cooldown discrepancy with Mass Confusion wouldn’t be so material. For this reason, while I am broadly not in favor of most nerfs, a reining in of Seeds is on my shortlist of should-probably-happens.

I have both Mind and Plant doms and would have no issue with increasing Seeds' recharge from 60 to 120 seconds. That said, I would still like to see Mass Confusion's recharge reduced from 240 to 180 seconds. 

 

As I've said before (not sure if it's in this thread) I think the containment solution is as simple as allowing fear to trigger containment.

[xl8]

On 12/13/2021 at 6:53 PM, Frozen Burn said:

Mind Control is the only control set without a pet.

Confusing an enemy is your pet. Mass confusion is multipet.

[arcane]

56 minutes ago, xl8 said:

Confusing an enemy is your pet. Mass confusion is multipet.

Correction: confusing enemies is a good bit better than at least half the pets.

 

I’ll take Mass Confusion over Animate Stone, Jack Frost, Gremlins, or Fly Trap any day of the week, and I kind of doubt the others besides Phantom Army stack up either.

Edited February 6, 2022 by arcane

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, xl8 said:

Confusing an enemy is your pet. Mass confusion is multipet.

 

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Correction: confusing enemies is a good bit better than at least half the pets.

 

I’ll take Mass Confusion over Animate Stone, Jack Frost, Gremlins, or Fly Trap any day of the week, and I kind of doubt the others besides Phantom Army stack up either.

 

Old and archaic arguments.  Plant and Electric control both get AOE confuse powers AND a pet(s).  I'm not trying to say mass confusion sux... I'm trying to highlight that Mind Control is weaker than other control sets damage-wise and needs to be re-evaluated / tweaked.  

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

 

Old and archaic arguments.  Plant and Electric control both get AOE confuse powers AND a pet(s).  I'm not trying to say mass confusion sux... I'm trying to highlight that Mind Control is weaker than other control sets damage-wise and needs to be re-evaluated / tweaked.  

I am going to address both things you have said and things you might be implying but have not said.
 

I would agree with:

 

(1) Fire, Plant, and Electric Control are better at AoE damage (confuses accounted for as a damage-like mechanism) than Mind Control.

 

(2) Illusion and Dark Control are better at S/T (confuses accounted for) than Mind Control.

 

(3) Seeds of Confusion makes Mass Confusion look less valuable than it is.

 

I would not agree with:

 

(4) Mind Control does the least damage (confuses accounted for), out of all Control primaries in either AoE or S/T or both AoE and S/T considered together.

 

(5) Mind Control needs a pet. Or any implication than a pet is necessarily a control set’s be-all end-all must-have penultimate power.

 

(6) The deficit between Seeds of Confusion and Mass Confusion should be addressed solely by buffs.

 

(7) Plant should ever be the benchmark for performance for as long as it contains two of the best and arguably overtuned powers in the entire game.

 

If (1) and (2) are approximately true and (4) is definitely not true, then Mind Control is around the middle of the pack - hardly a major problem so much as a set that could use minor touch-ups. You don’t achieve balance by insisting everything must be as good as the best sets; you focus on the averages. Otherwise you just create harmful power creep.

Edited February 6, 2022 by arcane

[arcane]

23 hours ago, Uun said:

I have both Mind and Plant doms and would have no issue with increasing Seeds' recharge from 60 to 120 seconds. That said, I would still like to see Mass Confusion's recharge reduced from 240 to 180 seconds. 

 

As I've said before (not sure if it's in this thread) I think the containment solution is as simple as allowing fear to trigger containment.

I believe all 3 changes mentioned in this post plus a Telekinesis revamp would do the trick. Poorly balanced confuses across sets, inability to reliably trigger AoE containment, and Telekinesis’ having been nerfed onto the ground are the set’s three primary struggles as I see it.

Edited February 6, 2022 by arcane

[Marbing]

Every mind control thread: "...BECAUSE SEEDS OF CONFUSION!"

 

I get it, SoC > MC and it doesn't make sense, but I agree with others here: Plant needs to be addressed as its own thing to bring it down to what the other sets are.
 

Mass confusion doesn't need its recharge reduced. Mind control has a lot going for it and doesn't need a pet. What Mind Control DOES need is:

A) Fear effects need to set up containment. 
B) Telekinesis needs to be not useless. Remove the repel entirely, or give me a location targetter so I can pick where they are pushed to (Kind of like Wormhole from Gravity)! Also increase the target cap! OR significantly lower the end cost... OR just rework it entirely.

C) Literally nothing else.

[MTeague]

On 12/13/2021 at 7:47 PM, Mezmera said:

Mind Control has no pet.  Mind Control needs no pet.  

 

This needs to be said more often, in Boromir voice.