Going for pure damage. Need advice!

[FiveDiamondJack]

I made a WM/Shield which I loved for concept, and now it's time to try Shield again I think, but I want to know if I'm just going for pure damage, should I do Broadsword/Shield, Axe/Shield, or stick with War Mace/Shield?

 

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[SomeGuy]

Bio Armor. +DMG, -RES aura, and PBAoE aura.

 

WM is the hardest hitter of those three primaries. BS needs to be procced out to make work well.

Edited December 25, 2021 by SomeGuy

[MoonSheep]

i also made a war mace/shield and levelled it until 40 or so, and played a tricked out one on the test server a lot

 

i found fire/shield is also a great damage dealer. you don’t get the same ‘thuds’ you do with war mace, however it’s certainly capable of putting some good numbers out. i think WM outperforms it slightly 

[Sovera]

Probably Claws/Bio.

 

But honestly? Pure damage? Energy Melee. I'm talking as seen from a rounded experience where between leveling and exemplaring and max level Claws is a nice classic that has its full attack chain by level 18 instead of 32. It also has a self contained blending machine of an AoE chain and all animations are blistering fast. on top of having FF procs in the important places that speeds up all cooldowns.

 

EM is great and nothing currently hits harder than it, but you level to 26 without a heavy hitter and the build is only complete at 32. Then you need to work out a rotation that tries to let you pull ET only after TF which is... not easy. Most of the time you'll have to rely on slow ET which is fine since it hits like a truck, but between TF taking 2.8 seconds and slow ET taking 2.9 plus the risk of whiffs it can feel like molasses.

 

Pretty-much-old-TW-damage-levels though? EM.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Bio Armor. +DMG, -RES aura, and PBAoE aura.

 

WM is the hardest hitter of those three primaries. BS needs to be procced out to make work well.

 

I greatly enjoy my wm/bio scrapper. Jawbreaker, clobber, shatter, repeat for ST and jawbreaker, shatter, crowd control, repeat for AoE. Have to retest, but seem to recall she was sitting at the 1:30 mark for taking down pylons, which seems quite respectable.

 

Edit: Went and retested: 1:45 avg.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[SomeGuy]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Pretty-much-old-TW-damage-levels though? EM.

 

 

 

Nothing is, and thank god. Averaging runs in the 50s without outside buffs was stupid. It made playing other sets pointless once you had a taste. EM is definitely king of melee ST but it definitely isn't doing old TW level of ST DPS.

[StriderIV]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Probably Claws/Bio.

 

But honestly? Pure damage? Energy Melee. I'm talking as seen from a rounded experience where between leveling and exemplaring and max level Claws is a nice classic that has its full attack chain by level 18 instead of 32. It also has a self contained blending machine of an AoE chain and all animations are blistering fast. on top of having FF procs in the important places that speeds up all cooldowns.

 

EM is great and nothing currently hits harder than it, but you level to 26 without a heavy hitter and the build is only complete at 32. Then you need to work out a rotation that tries to let you pull ET only after TF which is... not easy. Most of the time you'll have to rely on slow ET which is fine since it hits like a truck, but between TF taking 2.8 seconds and slow ET taking 2.9 plus the risk of whiffs it can feel like molasses.

 

Pretty-much-old-TW-damage-levels though? EM.

 

 

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

Nothing is, and thank god. Averaging runs in the 50s without outside buffs was stupid. It made playing other sets pointless once you had a taste. EM is definitely king of melee ST but it definitely isn't doing old TW level of ST DPS.

Seems like if you want to be king of taking down one single target, EM/Bio is the way to go. Want to be more well rounded and have some AOE, go Claws/Bio. Sound about right? 

[A Cat]

40 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

 

Seems like if you want to be king of taking down one single target, EM/Bio is the way to go. Want to be more well rounded and have some AOE, go Claws/Bio. Sound about right? 

EM is still ok for AoE, but claws is just particularly good for it, while still being really good for ST. Claws is really a complete package. I like the big orange numbers from EM's ET though, lol. 

[MoonSheep]

16 hours ago, StriderIV said:

 

Seems like if you want to be king of taking down one single target, EM/Bio is the way to go. Want to be more well rounded and have some AOE, go Claws/Bio. Sound about right? 

 

there's some misinformation on this thread, - i'd recommend looking at the damage numbers in-game and especially the animation times. the important calculation is to divide the base damage by the animation time

 

claws has one of the lowest damage outputs so not really sure why someone suggested it given OP quite clearly asked for a high damage set

 

War Mace and Fire Melee are on par for DPS (around 350 every 4 seconds - top 4 powers DPS added together), both having quite reasonable AoE outputs, with War Mace the better allrounder. Ice Melee also has about the same DPS, 361 for 4 seconds and quite a good AoE output too

 

EM ST output is around 387 every 4 seconds due to it's long animation times, however it has quite weak AoE

 

you'll also get a great PBAoE with shield, DoT Auras on other sets are mostly effective at lower levels where you spend a long time stood next to enemies. the taunt aura in against all odds will bunch up enemies nicely for AoEs too

 

edit: just had a look at some more numbers before dinner, looks like claws might actually have the lowest DPS out of all the scrapper primaries

 

has @Sovera ever logged into the game or is posting on the forums their main skill?

Edited December 26, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Sovera]

45 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

there's some misinformation on this thread, - i'd recommend looking at the damage numbers in-game and especially the animation times. the important calculation is to divide the base damage by the animation time

 

claws has one of the lowest damage outputs so not really sure why someone suggested it given OP quite clearly asked for a high damage set

 

War Mace and Fire Melee are on par for DPS (around 350 every 4 seconds - top 4 powers DPS added together), both having quite reasonable AoE outputs, with War Mace the better allrounder. Ice Melee also has about the same DPS, 361 for 4 seconds and quite a good AoE output too

 

EM ST output is around 387 every 4 seconds due to it's long animation times, however it has quite weak AoE

 

you'll also get a great PBAoE with shield, DoT Auras on other sets are mostly effective at lower levels where you spend a long time stood next to enemies. the taunt aura in against all odds will bunch up enemies nicely for AoEs too

 

edit: just had a look at some more numbers before dinner, looks like claws might actually have the lowest DPS out of all the scrapper primaries

 

has @Sovera ever logged into the game or is posting on the forums their main skill?

 

 

My first trash talk in the forums! I demand a badge.

 

Saying Claws has the lowest damage output is a bold strategy, lets see how it pans out.

[MoonSheep]

18 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

 

My first trash talk in the forums! I demand a badge.

 

Saying Claws has the lowest damage output is a bold strategy, lets see how it pans out.

 

not trash talking, just highlighting incorrect information and helping OP find a high damage set

 

some damage numbers of claw's attacks to help explain things:

name - damage / activation / damage per activation

Strike - 67  / 1.17s = 57
Slash - 82 / 1.33s = 61
Focus - 87 / 1.17 = 74
Eviscerate - 143 / 2.33 = 61

 

for scrappers, there doesn't appear to be a set with lower numbers

 

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

for scrappers, there doesn't appear to be a set with lower numbers

 

 

Did you factor in Follow-Up granting a 37.5% boost to damage and that the buff can be stacked twice?

[MoonSheep]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Did you factor in Follow-Up granting a 37.5% boost to damage and that the buff can be stacked twice?

 

yeah that'll bump the damage of course, but it'll also slow down the real world rate of killing - having to open every fight with a 0.83s light damage attack when you could open with WM's Clobber instead is not as speedy. for solo play i'm sure it'll be good fun - i have a night widow i sometimes play which is essentially the same set

 

whilst claws is definitely a fun set as Sovera suggested, i think high damage / fast sets are what will help with OPs search. long combat chains and setup time often means someone else in the team kill the foe infront of you instead

Edited December 26, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

there's some misinformation on this thread

There certainly is now.

 

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

claws might actually have the lowest DPS out of all the scrapper primaries

No. No, no, no, no. I'm guessing you've not actually played the set.

 

16 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

i have a night widow i sometimes play which is essentially the same set

So you haven't then.

 

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

has @Sovera ever logged into the game or is posting on the forums their main skill?

Which makes this all the more ironic.

 

Actually, what am I saying. Devs, are you hearing this? Claws needs a buff. It's the lowest DPS scrapper set.

[MoonSheep]

7 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Actually, what am I saying. Devs, are you hearing this? Claws needs a buff. It's the lowest DPS scrapper set.

 

the finest mathematician in paragon city 😛

 

i look forward to the inevitable PvP match where @Sovera shreds my sheepy wool infront of a large audience

Edited December 26, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Erratic1]

18 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

yeah that'll bump the damage of course, but it'll also slow down the real world rate of killing - having to open every fight with a 0.83s light damage attack when you could open with WM's Clobber instead is not as speedy. for solo play i'm sure it'll be good fun - i have a night widow i sometimes play which is essentially the same set

 

 

Unless Clobber is going to one-hit kill the target and you are not going to be making any other attacks, what you open up with is immaterial. Add too the stated criteria for judging was, "...looking at the damage numbers in-game and especially the animation times...."  In game the damage boost will be there from the second attack onward and damage per animation time while Clobber is fantastic every other attack in WM is on par with unmodified Claws (barring Whirling Mace which is woefully behind). 

 

[Haijinx]

Where is the Groan button?  I thought we got over a single power's DPS meaning anything over a decade ago.  

 

Claws has good DPA attacks that can be chained together.  Both Single Target and AOE.   AND it gets a damage boost that can be up all the time.   

 

Sure big crunch attacks+ Build Up are better for PVP or whatever.  But that wasn't what this thread was asking.  

[Kanil]

is there a chart for the best DPS sets, like in raw DPS

 

i'm tryin to get some post christmas chuckles

[MoonSheep]

i may, or may have forgotten about follow up and been rather confidently incorrect 😄

 

below is an artistic articulation of this scenario from 2004

 

[InvaderStych]

It's ok.  We have a room down the hall specially reserved for instances where someone might need a moment to extract their kicking thing from their noise hole. 🤣

 

I've been hanging out in there for a bit, it's nice. Highly recommended. 11/10.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

 

the finest mathematician in paragon city 😛

 

i look forward to the inevitable PvP match where @Sovera shreds my sheepy wool infront of a large audience

 

 

 

The idea to pick the animation times was sound, but that's the problem of spreadsheets and math: it is only as good as the data. And that's a problem that happens a bit too much with attempts at doing pure math with something clunky like MMO mechanics: there are too many under the hood mechanics. This isn't even taking in consideration mob resists which further increases the value of EM compared to Claws.

 

So, first off and most important: you're correct that War Mace is stronger than Claws. It hits hard, it has good places for FF and the AoE is decent (but held back by Whirling Mace and animation times), and Clobber is the Spin of single target attacks.

 

 

But we can't just look at the stronger attacks though. The whole attack chain is needed. Taking WM for example: Clobber (1.5 second animation, 583 damage), Shatter (2.5 animation, 461 damage), Jawbreaker (2 second animation, 380 damage) = 6 second attack loop for 1423 damage.

 

Claws would be (with two Follow-up stacks which distorts thing since it means it is on its second loop, I won't take it against you if you call foul): Follow-up (1.1 second animation for 175 damage), Focus (1.3 second animation for 344 damage), and Slash (1.6 second animation and 386 damage) = 4 seconds and 905 damage.

 

The difference is large, right? But it only took four seconds. So we can still use Follow-up and Focus a second time for a 6.4 seconds (that 0.4 seconds is cheating since its exceeding the attack loop of War Mace) which adds another 519. 519 + 905 = 1424.

 

Now there is some cheating done. The maths assume Claws already has two Follow-up stacks (ergo fight has started and four seconds have elapsed) and that 0.4 is in favor of Claws.

 

This seems to put Claws on par with WM but WM benefits of those big fat crits because it hits in big chunks where Claws does lots of little hits. Then things get absolutely muddied by the above WM rotation not taking in consideration its own Build-up, and how the longer animations when they fail are a bigger loss than Claws where if a hit fails it just launches the next one where WM is still swinging, and how the Superior Critical Strikes 3.5 second duration proc can fit a whole rotation for Claws (the proc counts as long as the animation started before it ended, even if the proc ends before the animation has finished animating).

 

 

This is why I don't do maths. I just poke at a pylon, then switch slots, then poke at a pylon again, then jot down the results. My only math involves plus and minus signs.

 

Which brings me back to my first post: Claws is not as good as WM, but it blooms early. Level 18 for Focus which means the ST attack chain is done. Spin is idiotically strong with 384 damage against Whirling Mace for 225 and Shockwave may not hit as hard as Crowd Control (231 damage VS 284 damage) but it animates much faster (1.2 second animation VS 2.3 second animation).

 

That said both are left behind by Energy Melee.

 

 

Now personally what I call my 'best' damage character is a EM/Fire Brute. Because it is a Brute it is weaker in damage than a Scrapper (thank you crappy ATOs) achieving only a a two minute and a half pylon time. Compared to Scrappers who do things in 1:30 or 1:45 that's slow. But, it is well rounded. Burn shores up the weaker AoE of EM allowing the character to blitz through regular missions both chunking bosses but also melting the surrounding minions. Burn also fits nicely because EM has an awkwardly long recharge for Total Focus (I don't want to use slow Energy Transfer) which I can neatly fit it in. And because it is a Brute it is sturdier than a Scrapper which is important to me but not to everyone.

[StriderIV]

51 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

 

 

The idea to pick the animation times was sound, but that's the problem of spreadsheets and math: it is only as good as the data. And that's a problem that happens a bit too much with attempts at doing pure math with something clunky like MMO mechanics: there are too many under the hood mechanics. This isn't even taking in consideration mob resists which further increases the value of EM compared to Claws.

 

So, first off and most important: you're correct that War Mace is stronger than Claws. It hits hard, it has good places for FF and the AoE is decent (but held back by Whirling Mace and animation times), and Clobber is the Spin of single target attacks.

 

 

But we can't just look at the stronger attacks though. The whole attack chain is needed. Taking WM for example: Clobber (1.5 second animation, 583 damage), Shatter (2.5 animation, 461 damage), Jawbreaker (2 second animation, 380 damage) = 6 second attack loop for 1423 damage.

 

Claws would be (with two Follow-up stacks which distorts thing since it means it is on its second loop, I won't take it against you if you call foul): Follow-up (1.1 second animation for 175 damage), Focus (1.3 second animation for 344 damage), and Slash (1.6 second animation and 386 damage) = 4 seconds and 905 damage.

 

The difference is large, right? But it only took four seconds. So we can still use Follow-up and Focus a second time for a 6.4 seconds (that 0.4 seconds is cheating since its exceeding the attack loop of War Mace) which adds another 519. 519 + 905 = 1424.

 

Now there is some cheating done. The maths assume Claws already has two Follow-up stacks (ergo fight has started and four seconds have elapsed) and that 0.4 is in favor of Claws.

 

This seems to put Claws on par with WM but WM benefits of those big fat crits because it hits in big chunks where Claws does lots of little hits. Then things get absolutely muddied by the above WM rotation not taking in consideration its own Build-up, and how the longer animations when they fail are a bigger loss than Claws where if a hit fails it just launches the next one where WM is still swinging, and how the Superior Critical Strikes 3.5 second duration proc can fit a whole rotation for Claws (the proc counts as long as the animation started before it ended, even if the proc ends before the animation has finished animating).

 

 

This is why I don't do maths. I just poke at a pylon, then switch slots, then poke at a pylon again, then jot down the results. My only math involves plus and minus signs.

 

Which brings me back to my first post: Claws is not as good as WM, but it blooms early. Level 18 for Focus which means the ST attack chain is done. Spin is idiotically strong with 384 damage against Whirling Mace for 225 and Shockwave may not hit as hard as Crowd Control (231 damage VS 284 damage) but it animates much faster (1.2 second animation VS 2.3 second animation).

 

That said both are left behind by Energy Melee.

 

 

Now personally what I call my 'best' damage character is a EM/Fire Brute. Because it is a Brute it is weaker in damage than a Scrapper (thank you crappy ATOs) achieving only a a two minute and a half pylon time. Compared to Scrappers who do things in 1:30 or 1:45 that's slow. But, it is well rounded. Burn shores up the weaker AoE of EM allowing the character to blitz through regular missions both chunking bosses but also melting the surrounding minions. Burn also fits nicely because EM has an awkwardly long recharge for Total Focus (I don't want to use slow Energy Transfer) which I can neatly fit it in. And because it is a Brute it is sturdier than a Scrapper which is important to me but not to everyone.

When you say “both are left behind by Energy Melee”, you’re speaking in regards to ST damage compared to AOE, correct Sov? 

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, StriderIV said:

When you say “both are left behind by Energy Melee”, you’re speaking in regards to ST damage compared to AOE, correct Sov? 

 

...actually I never ran the numbers on EM's cone. Lemme check.

 

So it's about 237 damage. Good news is that it can be chained with Power Crash, Whirling Hands,  Power Crash, Total Focus. Repeat. Might not win awards but it's decent.

[StriderIV]

35 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

...actually I never ran the numbers on EM's cone. Lemme check.

 

So it's about 237 damage. Good news is that it can be chained with Power Crash, Whirling Hands,  Power Crash, Total Focus. Repeat. Might not win awards but it's decent.

Almost hard to see a situation where you wouldn’t pick EM. At least, that is how I feel on my EM/EA Stalker. I guess Claws adds some extra mitigation with it’s KD’s, so that is a plus that is hard to quantify.

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Shockwave may not hit as hard as Crowd Control (231 damage VS 284 damage) but it animates much faster (1.2 second animation VS 2.3 second animation).

The other thing to add is that Shockwave is a ranged blast cone. It has like, 30' of range. Holy shit. Yeah, it is only 90 degrees vs 180 degrees, but that is a lot of area, vs the 7' range of Crowd Control. The downer of course of Shockwave having KB instead of KD. IMO the huge range makes it way easier to use in the thick of things to try and hit the whole mob, with just a hop back to deploy it. 

 

36 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

Almost hard to see a situation where you wouldn’t pick EM. At least, that is how I feel on my EM/EA Stalker. I guess Claws adds some extra mitigation with it’s KD’s, so that is a plus that is hard to quantify.

Your low level attack chain is pretty meh with EM IMO. KD's are really good, as you've said. I like EM better, but definitely not in the lower levels compared to Claws. Claws feels like you're constantly shredding them. I have to use temps to fill in my attack chain with EM on low levels. On a Stalker though, just don't pick Claws over EM unless you are serving a concept. You lose your godly AoE attack.