Positional Resistances

[TheZag]

I would like to suggest adding positional resistances (melee, ranged, AoE) as a potential stats for enemies.  Positional defense already exists but defense is an all or nothing mitigation.  Positional resistance would allow a wider range of effectiveness in tuning how some enemies take damage.  This would allow enemies to be more resistant or weak to attacks based on the attacks positional type as well as damage type.  Certain enemies could be resistant to AoE but weak to melee,  others could be resistant to melee and ranged but weak to AoE.  Or perhaps a fight where enemy resistances shift and you change targets based on what enemy is currently weak to your attacks.  Of course the majority of enemies would have this value left unchanged.  It may even be something that only makes sense on hard difficulty settings.  But for hard difficulty I can see potential for enemies to have positional resistance as each member of the team has access to melee/ranged/AoE through pool powers and ancillary/patron power picks. 

[DreadShinobi]

I really like this idea, but feel like it would be very difficult to implement and even if implementing it was easy would it be over complicating something that doesn't need to be, and would it come off as 'invisible stats' ie how would the player character know if the critter is weak to melee attacks and resistant to ranged attacks. I do feel that adding more resistances to critters is healthier for fun gameplay than adding +def to critters because nobody likes to be stuck in whiff whiff whiff hell. In feedback to the addition of hard mode stats introduced in the aeon sf I like the addition of resistances to critters and dislike the added defense on higher difficulties. Outside of this I kinda just wish critters got a max hp buff as a higher difficulty option.

 

Solid idea though, has the potential to add flavor and uniqueness to certain factions, but what a doozey it would be for the playerbase to absorb such a change.

 

Also many ranged archetypes do not take any melee attacks or even have access to them and most melee archetypes have terrible modifiers on their ranged options in ancillaries outside snipes where even if a target is resistant to melee attacks and weak to ranged attacks a scrapper may very well still deal more damage to it with their melee primary abilities. 

 

Many people enjoy themed teams like all corruptor groups and this type of play should remain viable.

Edited December 31, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[Uun]

Powers have an attack type (positional and/or typed) for checking defense as part of the HitChance calculation, and then a damage type which checks resistance after HitChance has been determined. I don't see how positional resistance could be implemented.

[TheZag]

22 minutes ago, Uun said:

Powers have an attack type (positional and/or typed) for checking defense as part of the HitChance calculation, and then a damage type which checks resistance after HitChance has been determined. I don't see how positional resistance could be implemented.

 

it could very well be impossible for the game's engine.  if it turns out to be possible and the team chooses to implement it, there are even more things that could be possible. 

 

Players already have powers that debuff all enemy resistance.  A positional resistance debuff could be stronger then a general resistance debuff but only benefit a single type of attack.  Players probably shouldnt have access to positional resistance buffs but some new boss fights could make use of debuffing player resistances.  An example would be a boss debuffs the farthest away players ranged resistance and then 5 seconds later uses a sniper attack on the farthest away player.  During that time the player can stand their ground and take the hit or move closer than another player so they can take the hit instead.

 

The majority of uses that i can come up with seem like they would be fairly advanced mechanics.  And sweeping changes of existing content arent my goal with this suggestion.  It would probably be best suited for future challenge mode settings content.

[Major_Decoy]

I'm curious to know information the game keeps track of. The game has to keep track of "You attacked this target" to some extent, because that's aggro. Can an enemy know "You attacked me with a ranged attack, so I am hitting you with auto-hit damage debuff?"

[Normal Thomas]

8 hours ago, Uun said:

Powers have an attack type (positional and/or typed) for checking defense as part of the HitChance calculation, and then a damage type which checks resistance after HitChance has been determined. I don't see how positional resistance could be implemented.

I'm thinking the same thing. Wouldn't the damage have to have a melee, ranged or AoE type as well?

 

But, if positional damage resistance could be implemented it would spice up gameplay a bit.

[Zepp]

From a conceptual perspective, I'm not sure what this would mean. How can you be better at resisting damage from acid if it is delivered from acid breath as opposed to an acid gun. I am actually of the opinion that defense should only be positional and resistance should only be by type (but that ship has sailed)...

[TheZag]

17 minutes ago, Zepp said:

From a conceptual perspective, I'm not sure what this would mean. How can you be better at resisting damage from acid if it is delivered from acid breath as opposed to an acid gun. I am actually of the opinion that defense should only be positional and resistance should only be by type (but that ship has sailed)...

 

for some examples that holds true but others could make sense.  i resist lethal damage from swords with my armor but lethal damage from bullets goes right through.  i do see what you mean though but im more of the opinion that real world rules are mostly broken in a game.

[Replacement]

I don't think this is viable as Resist, but it would be super neat if Absorbs applied to positions, perhaps with efficiency (e.g. 20% Ranged efficiency  means the other 80% goes to Health).

 

Would still be a nightmare to develop, but at least we wouldn't need to refactor and redefine how all of damage is calculated, not to mention the scales of expected player values...

 

(If you need justification, Absorb typically suggests a material between you and the attack, so overcoming it from a different position makes sense)

[Wetlands]

I always thought they should expand positions to include, side, rear, front, etc. as I was playing my shield scrapper in a frost fire mission awhile ago and thought, if I get shot in the back it should do more damage because my shield is out front.

 

Positional resistances seems like a good idea.

[TheZag]

I encountered a bug ingame and it made me think of this suggestion again so a bit of a necro here but it could fix the bug also.

 

On a mission there was a NPC that is required to rescue and receive a clue then later defeat the boss and finish the mission.  It was a combat ally NPC and it died to enemy AoE before i even rescued them.  The mission didnt fail but clearing everything didnt complete it either.

 

Positional AoE resistance for mission NPC allies would be able to prevent them from getting killed before they are even rescued.  Give them 100% AoE resistance until they are free and you get your required clue and then it could revert to 0% like normal.

[Rudra]

They could just apply an untouchable flag on the rescue NPCs that drops when the capture spawn aggroes. That would be simpler than trying to implement positional resistance.

 

Edit: Even better: Untouchable until after freed.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Rudra

[TheZag]

Untouchable until rescued would probably be easier but im still hopeful for positional resistances for the potential gameplay variety it could also provide in addition to being a way to keep the NPCs alive until rescued. 

[biostem]

I wonder if they could do something like this:  A power grants you 0 positional defense.  If, however, an incoming attack triggers a check against that power at all, then apply the appropriate damage resistance value to said attack, before its final value is calculated.  It's a bit of a kludge, but perhaps it could work...

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I wonder if they could do something like this:  A power grants you 0 positional defense.  If, however, an incoming attack triggers a check against that power at all, then apply the appropriate damage resistance value to said attack, before its final value is calculated.  It's a bit of a kludge, but perhaps it could work...

 

I was going to server something like this as I read the necro'ed OP.

 

But instead of attempting to make it positional resistance, it could be something like positional reaction flags. Basically, give the NPC a power that checks for a positional and if it rolls a hit, the power grants a stacking buff. That buff could technically be resistance, a heal, absorb or whatever and it can give that buff to whatever be it for resistance or multiple resistances.

 

It wouldn't really be positional resistance but rather a "you might want to hit that enemy with something other than the positional it defends against" deterrent.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

give the NPC a power that checks for a positional and if it rolls a hit, the power grants a stacking buff.

This sounds like it'd be more work.  If an incoming attack already contains its position, and a positional defense power on the character can already check against it, then just use that check to trigger the damage reduction...

[Rudra]

On 12/31/2021 at 7:18 PM, TheZag said:

 

for some examples that holds true but others could make sense.  i resist lethal damage from swords with my armor but lethal damage from bullets goes right through.  i do see what you mean though but im more of the opinion that real world rules are mostly broken in a game.

I have a problem with this statement. The game makes bullets and swords both lethal damage, so that part I get. Thinking on how armor works though... let's use kevlar as an example. Kevlar stops bullets of up to a certain caliber. (Not going to get into the specifics of how kevlar works since it does not actually stop harm, just penetration.) A knife however, will cut right through it. (Newer kevlars are supposed to be at least less susceptible to this, but we'll stick with original production kevlar for this example.) The reason the kevlar works against the bullet and not the knife is because the kevlar tries to spread and diffuse the energy. The blunt bullet has its energy spread. The sharp knife separates the kevlar, cutting through it. (Edit again: The pointy arrow punches through kevlar without a care.) That is not positional damage.

 

Now, in CoX, that could only be simulated with positional. (Edit again cont.: Except for the bullet/arrow concundrum.) I have no argument there. My main argument is that kevlar is the only armor I know of that functions like that. So like @Zepp said, the positional resist does not work on a thematic level except in that one specific example. And more modern kevlars are (at least supposed to be) much less susceptible to this.

 

Metal armors? It was not being shot that defeated them. It was the energy being focused into a significantly smaller point, and you still needed a strong enough firearm to puncture it. (Edit again cont.: Which is why picks and mauls were so good against them.)

Leather armors? *laughs* Yeah, they don't really stop anything serious.

Natural armors like crocodilian osteoderms? Don't care if the attack is ranged, melee, or AoE. Just how much energy is applied to any given point like other armors.

 

So while the concept itself is interesting? I don't see it fitting anything. Then again, this is a game and the rule is fun, so if it turns out to be fun, who cares.

 

Edit: To add to the confusion, would positional resist only apply to smash/lethal damage or all damage? And how would any damage other than smash/lethal make any amount of sense for being effective at melee but not at range? Positional defense is the only thing that works with fire, cold, energy, negative energy, and toxic. (Psychic only really works with psychic defense and resist.)

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rudra

[TheZag]

I wasnt after any real world compliance with the suggestion although i was able to oblige with some examples when necessary and acknowledged that positional resistance isnt always a thing in the real world. 

 

But i only intend this to be for non-players.  Players already have the ability to become uberleetsaucepwnzorfacerollbbq undying damage machines.  Enemies are only as good as their abilities and AI, and i think its safe to say their AI is generally lacking so its made up for with abilities.  Enemies dont know to stand a few feet away from AoE range so instead they are hit.  Yes they move away from rain type and the floor is lava type AoE but they are perfectly content to stand in tight groups or line up while the players toss them a beatdown.

 

I see positional resistances being used very sparingly on existing enemies to give some significance to a few of the special but easily ignored and defeated enemies.  What pops in my head is the sky raiders force field generators.  I rarely actually attack one and just let it die to AoE.  If it had some resistance to AoE,  then people might be more inclined to turn and attack one with single target abilities since its about as smart as a bump on a log and just sit there to die.  I think the majority of positional resistances would make sense in new and hardmode type content instead of making players relearn old enemies.  A boss could summon a bunch of adds where the red ones are weak to ranged and the yellow ones are weak to melee.  Either can still be defeated with the 'wrong' type of attacks but it will take longer and leave less time for attacking the boss.  We also live in City of AoE so having a few targets that are intended to be defeated by single target attacks can give the stalker and scrapper something with a bit more meat on its bones to attack while the rest of the steamroll bombs everything to death.

 

Overall,  this is mostly meant for boss battles and a few regular mobs.  I gave a few examples of possible boss mechanics in my original and second post but there are alot of possibilities.  The team has also done a great job making interesting fights using existing mechanics so this may not be of any interest to them.  But if they chose to implement it in some way then they would have even more tools for creating interesting battles in the future.

 

edit: and keeping required mission NPCs alive until they give their clues 🙂

 

  

Edited May 10, 2022 by TheZag

[Gobbledigook]

A mob being more resistant to a fire attack because it just happens to have come from more than 10' away doesn't make sense.

 

They could just increase the health of the Force field generator so it doesn't go down so easily from AoE and would need a more concentrated attack or give it extra AoE defence.

[TheZag]

I guess if we played city of average people then everything should make real world sense.  But we jump higher than 3 feet and run faster than 20mph all the time.  There would be almost nothing left if it all made sense.

 

From a real world perspective, no, there isnt much here to back up the suggestion.  But from a hero video game perspective,  i think positional resistances could offer quite a bit in content moving forward.

[Naraka]

19 hours ago, biostem said:

This sounds like it'd be more work.  If an incoming attack already contains its position, and a positional defense power on the character can already check against it, then just use that check to trigger the damage reduction...

The power is there to grant the resistance, not to check what positional. I guess it was poor wording. The power would be there so that when a positional is checked, it grants resistance if that attack lands.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Naraka

[MsSmart]

I do not like the idea, because I am terrified by the implementation

 

Look at how the players using defense as their means for defense gets cheated in a way, since all attacks "are supposed" to have a positional and a type of attack, but some are purposely broken to have only a type of attack and no positional, like many of the vomit attacks are purely acid or toxic and thus only the toxic defense comes into play and the positional defenses are altogether ignored, which makes the vast majority of the defense based players extremely vulnerable, since toxic and psionic defense is extremely hard to get.

 

If you were to implement this for resistance, now your melee will wind-up having their most common positional resistances ignored or the type ignored. As I look at the system as is, tanks, brutes, scrapers etc. have type resistance, but no positional. Then you make baddies such as the Rikti and give them positional pure attacks and the melee will drop like flies as a result.

 

Another problem is how the IOs going to be changed for melees, like in defense some IOs give positional and others type defenses, are you going redo the entire set of IOs to have positional and type resistances now? This would be devastating to the melee, for they will not be be to reach as high resistances as they do now.

 

While the idea sounds fun, I am terrified at the implementation.

 

Sue

[TheZag]

No,  positional resistances wouldnt be available to players as a stat that gets increased and the vast majority of mobs would have 0% for their positional resistances so they remain unchanged.  Some existing mobs might get a bit of positional resistances in place of AI upgrades,  my earlier example was sky raiders shield generator getting some AoE resist.  A flat HP increase makes them more durable across the board but 30% AoE resist lets them last longer if they arent being targeted and fall quickly if they are focused.  The shield generator could even have negative positional resistance for melee and ranged so it gets hit even harder by single target attacks.  Future AV battles are where this would be most useful to help in creating interesting fights.

[Doomguide2005]

And behind all this a reminder that currently as is resistance resists a resistance debuff and has no cap involved.  You hit 100% or more resistance to something you're effectively immune to being debuffed by resistance debuffs against you.

 

And gratz to myself if I wrote that correctly and double gratz if you understand it 🤪