Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge Single Slot In Kick?

[Vulpoid]

I have seen  Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge slotted  as the only enhancement in Kick in several builds.
Are people using the attack in their attack chain?
Does it have a chance to Proc if I don't click on Kick?
I can't imagine many folks are using the power unslotted for Damage, Accuracy or without additional slots for any set bonuses. 
What am I missing?

[SuperPlyx]

Lot of builds you get on here, first thing you got to do is go through and shut off all the things like this that are not used or skew the numbers. This is one of the worst though. 

[Vulpoid]

But does it work in the game without actually using Kick in your attack chain?
What is the point of this slotting technique?
Is it a global type proc advantage?

[Aurora_Girl]

It is not a global, no. That slotting is dumb and should not be done. 

[Vulpoid]

2 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

That slotting is dumb and should not be done. 

Well...
That was a 2 Million Inf lesson learned.
*sigh*

[Major_Decoy]

It's something people do just to not have an empty slot in kick.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

Well...
That was a 2 Million Inf lesson learned.
*sigh*

 

On the plus side, we have unslotters and enhancement bins and you might find a use for it later on another build.

[Troo]

14 hours ago, Vulpoid said:

I have seen  Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge slotted  as the only enhancement in Kick in several builds.
Are people using the attack in their attack chain?
Does it have a chance to Proc if I don't click on Kick?
I can't imagine many folks are using the power unslotted for Damage, Accuracy or without additional slots for any set bonuses. 
What am I missing?

Are people using the attack in their attack chain?

maybe opportunistically. example: all other attacks are recharging so why not throw in a kick with a small chance to get the proc to fire.
Does it have a chance to Proc if I don't click on Kick?

nope, have to click the power it is slotted in for that one..
I can't imagine many folks are using the power unslotted for Damage, Accuracy or without additional slots for any set bonuses. 
What am I missing?

likely purely for the tiny chance to +recharge

 

if you find yourself hitting brawl from time to time, or punch, why not switch to kick?.. what could it hurt.

folks could throw out the formula for proc activation, but in kick, it wouldn't be very often and a such not dependable.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Troo

[Ukase]

What you will find throughout these forums - and all over the world, really - is that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. You will see all manner of builds that well-intentioned people will share, but they've never done the math to determine if these "chance of XXXX " procs will fire routinely. 

Now some folks do the math and are willing to take the risk. I've seen some will go for it with the proc if the odds of it firing are greater than 50%. My threshold is higher. I want at least 90% chance of firing. 

This is snipped copy of the formulas at work per Bopper's spreadsheet. (do a search for his name, find one of his threads, and in his signature you can get the link for this spreadsheet. ) 

In the top left, you'll see Single Target. The values in there were added by me for some other proc, not the FF +100 recharge. That proc is the ONLY proc that has the low PPM of 2. 

 

 

These are the values for the FF proc slotted in Kick. 

 

Given the 2m is essentially nothing in this game, (Unless today is your first day playing) it can be worth slotting it if your global accuracy will let you hit your target. 

[aethereal]

I feel like people have been talking around the reason for this.  Mids defaults to showing your global recharge as though any force feedback proc you have anywhere in the build is actively giving its +100% recharge.  People who don't understand the actual game mechanics assume that this will be reflected in play.  They are wrong.  It is not worth slotting FF recharge in kick.  FF does not proc unless the power it is allowed in is used, and it has a low PPM and is unlikely to proc in kick.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I feel like people have been talking around the reason for this.  Mids defaults to showing your global recharge as though any force feedback proc you have anywhere in the build is actively giving its +100% recharge.  People who don't understand the actual game mechanics assume that this will be reflected in play.  They are wrong.  It is not worth slotting FF recharge in kick.  FF does not proc unless the power it is allowed in is used, and it has a low PPM and is unlikely to proc in kick.

 

And will it even proc if the attack misses?

[Aurora_Girl]

Nope

[kiramon]

4 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

It's something people do just to not have an empty slot in kick.

Accurate 

[oedipus_tex]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, if money is no object, a +100% chance proc is probably the best slotting you can put in Kick just because nothing else is likely to make a difference. You'll still probably never cast it, but if for whatever reason you do, a chance for 100% Recharge is probably the best outcome you could ask for.    

[Gobbledigook]

If kick is not slotted then don't use it. The chances for a proc are low unless it is a regular attack in your rotation, even low (16%) chance is ok if you use it a lot, FF or damage procs. The damage loss from an unslotted attack not in regular rotation is not worth the proc.

 

Head over to view active sets to see what +recharge, accuracy etc are built in.

[Six-Six]

I always take Kick to open up Tough and Weave. Depending on the toon (AT/Powers) sometimes I do use Kick especially in the lower levels when I barely have any attacks. I used to put +recharge in it, but I don't think the effect was at all noticeable. These days I'd slot it with Slugfest +chance to disorient or +chance for KD (if I happened to have them, wouldn't go out of my way to get them just for Kick). I use it to buy me time and some sort of CC in lieu of my stronger attacks. By the time I can slot it with +Recharge, however, I have a decent attack chain available to me and I barely use it. Again, depending on the toon, I might keep the two aforementioned procs in case I do a lot of Pillar missions. 

[Parabola]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

What you will find throughout these forums - and all over the world, really - is that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. You will see all manner of builds that well-intentioned people will share, but they've never done the math to determine if these "chance of XXXX " procs will fire routinely. 

Now some folks do the math and are willing to take the risk. I've seen some will go for it with the proc if the odds of it firing are greater than 50%. My threshold is higher. I want at least 90% chance of firing. 

Yup, there are many nuances to using procs for best advantage and as you say there are builds posted with the best of intentions that unfortunately don't. Quite apart from any balance concerns that people may have with ppm I think one of the better arguments for having a look at the system is how opaque it is and how much knowledge a person needs to use it effectively.

 

On the subject of thresholds, for me it really depends on the situation. When slotting damage procs I will always do the 'replace proc with a 50+5 damage' test to make sure the proc is adding more than simply slotting more base damage would. You also have to take into account other factors though such as the effect of global damage boosts (musculature and any generally always on things like soul drain) and really importantly if you are a scrapper or stalker the effect of crits (crits don't benefit procs or benefit from them and they weaken the case for using procs over more base damage slotting). I will slot procs with chances to fire much lower than 90%, anything down to around 30% can be worth it in my experience, but it very much depends on circumstances.

 

Force feedback procs are up there with my favourite procs and again I will slot these with lower chances to fire. In particular it's worth noting how good this proc is in aoes. It only needs to fire once to give you the effect so even with relatively low chances to fire it can be pretty reliable in an aoe. Kick of course isn't an aoe and as you show has an absolutely terrible chance to fire the proc.

[jordanlc93]

Is this dumb? I have FF proc in my Psionic Tornado... Should I only have procs in there to increase the chance? 

 

[Parabola]

4 minutes ago, jordanlc93 said:

Is this dumb? I have FF proc in my Psionic Tornado... Should I only have procs in there to increase the chance? 

 

No that looks like a sensible slotting depending on what you are wanting to achieve. Positron's blast has good bonuses and I often use it with another proc in the last slot. I can't see from this which pieces of positrons blast you have slotted though. If you have the dam/rech piece in there it will be slightly lowering the proc rate of the posi proc (assuming that is slotted) and the FF proc. Proc rate is affected by a few factors but the one we have the most control over is the recharge directly slotted in the power; the higher this is the lower the proc chances. However the FF proc in an aoe like psionic tornado only needs to trigger once on any of the mobs you hit so whatever its chances of firing you should see good returns if you hit enough people.

[jordanlc93]

How Long does the FF Proc stay on ? 

 

Here is the full build 😛 I'm not really done with it but I would love to know what you think 😛

 

 

 

tslick (7).mxd

[Parabola]

Sorry I can't open that - my mids is behind the game a bit. If you post a forum export I'll eyeball it.

 

The FF proc gives 100% recharge for 8 seconds I believe. That's quite a strong boost but obviously short lived.

[jordanlc93]

This should be better. Sorry.

 

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Spectral Wounds -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Apc-Dmg(9), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(11), Apc-Acc/Rchg(13)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Hold%(A), GrvAnc-Immob(3), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx(3), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(13), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Blind -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(5), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(7), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(27)
Level 4: Flash Arrow -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(43), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(46), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 6: Flash -- UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold(15), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(15), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(17), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(17)
Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(19), Rct-ResDam%(19)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Teleport -- Range-I(A)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Phantom Army -- CaltoArm-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), CaltoArm-Acc/Rchg(21), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg(21), CaltoArm-Dmg/EndRdx(27), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SlbAll-Build%(29)
Level 22: Acid Arrow -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(23), TchofLadG-%Dam(23), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(25), PstBls-Dam%(25)
Level 24: Tough -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam(42), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(43), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(43)
Level 26: Deceive -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf(31), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(34), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(37), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(36), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Rgn-Knock%(37)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), NrnSht-Dam%(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldNet-Dam%(39)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: World of Confusion -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Dmg(45), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Mind Over Body -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(48), ResDam-I(48)
Level 49: Psionic Tornado -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(49), FrcFdb-Rechg%(49), PstBls-Dam%(50), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(50), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
------------

[Hyperstrike]

I'm guilty of doing this.

1: It's an emtpy slot.
2: It's a beneficial proc.
3: Boxing and its associated IO options cannot claim this.

Granted, not actually USING Kick kinda defeats the purpose.
But I'm a compulsive completionist.

[Parabola]

7 minutes ago, jordanlc93 said:

This should be better. Sorry.

 

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Spectral Wounds -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Apc-Dmg(9), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(11), Apc-Acc/Rchg(13)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Hold%(A), GrvAnc-Immob(3), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx(3), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(13), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Blind -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(5), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(7), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(27)
Level 4: Flash Arrow -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(43), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(46), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 6: Flash -- UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold(15), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(15), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(17), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(17)
Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(19), Rct-ResDam%(19)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Teleport -- Range-I(A)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Phantom Army -- CaltoArm-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), CaltoArm-Acc/Rchg(21), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg(21), CaltoArm-Dmg/EndRdx(27), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SlbAll-Build%(29)
Level 22: Acid Arrow -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(23), TchofLadG-%Dam(23), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(25), PstBls-Dam%(25)
Level 24: Tough -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam(42), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(43), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(43)
Level 26: Deceive -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf(31), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(34), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(37), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(36), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Rgn-Knock%(37)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), NrnSht-Dam%(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldNet-Dam%(39)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: World of Confusion -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Dmg(45), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Mind Over Body -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(48), ResDam-I(48)
Level 49: Psionic Tornado -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(49), FrcFdb-Rechg%(49), PstBls-Dam%(50), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(50), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
------------

I'm not an expert on Illusion but this looks decent. Couple of notes:

 

Another slotting for phantom army might be 4 expedient reinforcements (all the ones with recharge + acc/dam) and two soulbound allegiance (dam/rech and chance for build up). I've seen it used in other builds and it's what I had planned for an illusion I never finished.

 

The problem with slotting a power purely with procs like you have acid arrow here is that it still needs to hit. I can't see what your global accuracy is like (it should be decent because of all the purple sets) but I like to fit the kismet piece in somewhere on proc builds particularly if I'm not using tactics.

 

You also look like you might be in danger of suffering end wise. Swap the numinas piece for a panacea proc at the very least but you might find you need to scrounge up some more slots from somewhere for more sustain slotting. That said you are running ageless and that may suffice if you don't plan on exemping much.

 

World of confusion slotted with Armageddon seems quite an expensive way of getting another purple set into the build, in a power that isn't really all that impressive. Not saying don't do it but it might be worth looking at alternatives? 

 

Have fun with it 🙂

[jordanlc93]

12 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I'm not an expert on Illusion but this looks decent. Couple of notes:

 

Another slotting for phantom army might be 4 expedient reinforcements (all the ones with recharge + acc/dam) and two soulbound allegiance (dam/rech and chance for build up). I've seen it used in other builds and it's what I had planned for an illusion I never finished.

 

The problem with slotting a power purely with procs like you have acid arrow here is that it still needs to hit. I can't see what your global accuracy is like (it should be decent because of all the purple sets) but I like to fit the kismet piece in somewhere on proc builds particularly if I'm not using tactics.

 

You also look like you might be in danger of suffering end wise. Swap the numinas piece for a panacea proc at the very least but you might find you need to scrounge up some more slots from somewhere for more sustain slotting. That said you are running ageless and that may suffice if you don't plan on exemping much.

 

World of confusion slotted with Armageddon seems quite an expensive way of getting another purple set into the build, in a power that isn't really all that impressive. Not saying don't do it but it might be worth looking at alternatives? 

 

Have fun with it 🙂

PA is slotted that way bcuz I need the Res for S/L (I will be farming S/L AE Mishs) 

 

The accuracy on Acid arrow is good not great. Ill find a way to get that Kismet +6% acc in there.  However the procs on acid arrow are insane. I turned a 1 to 5 dmg power into a very strong aoe. 

 

I dont suffer end wise due to Agless. 

 

World of confusion is slotted that way strictly for the 10% recharge bonus. I actually am not a huge fan of the power. They need to fix it lol. However the slotting of this power allows me to have perma  PA / hasten