Sweeping defense changes

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Yes,  Which gives us this lovely sentence:  Resistance resists resistance reduction.

How much reduction could a resistor resist if a resistor could resist reduction. *three times fast*

[KaizenSoze]

24 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Yes,  Which gives us this lovely sentence:  Resistance resists resistance reduction.

What powers? I would love to look at them in City of Data.

[Wavicle]

Just now, KaizenSoze said:

What powers? I would love to look at them in City of Data.

Every damage resistance power in the game.

 

Damage resistance resists damage resistance debuffs.

[KaizenSoze]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Every damage resistance power in the game.

 

Damage resistance resists damage resistance debuffs.

Sorry this makes no sense to me. Give me a specific power example.

 

By what percentage does said power resist reduction?

 

If I have 75% resist to smashing and I get hit by -20% resist. The remaining resistance is 55%. There is no resistance to the debuff, it took full effect. Unlike DDR which reduces the amount the debuff applied against defense. I am most likely being dense here, but they way it's being explained makes no sense in the context of how DDR works.

[srmalloy]

6 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

If I have 75% resist to smashing and I get hit by -20% resist. The remaining resistance is 55%. There is no resistance to the debuff, it took full effect.

From the various sources available, if you have 75% resistance, and you get hit with a 20% resistance debuff, you resist 75% of the debuff, so you are debuffed from 75% to 70%. If you had 80% resistance capped to 75%, you would resist 80% of the debuff, so your 80% resistance would be debuffed to 76%, which is still over the cap, so your resistance wouldn't change.

 

This is what makes some AVs such a pain to grind down -- their resistance to a particular type or position of damage may be capped so that they do take damage, but their 'natural' resistance is high enough that they mostly ignore any resistance debuffs.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by srmalloy

[Brutal Justice]

14 hours ago, macskull said:

It's been pointed out to you multiple times that dramatically reducing defense hard caps 1) kneecaps defense-based builds, 2) reduces build variety, 3) eliminates the usefulness of many support powersets, and 4) doesn't actually solve even the perceived problem because tohit debuffs still exist. For a great case study in what happens when you impose harsh limits on character survivability and the ability of support characters to actually provide support

1.   If it kneecaps defense builds, and 40% def has been shown to be fairly equivalent to 75% resistance, then are electric armor scrappers already kneecapped?   

 

2.  How so?   If you’re already hitting 45+ defense wouldn’t it free up more exotic choices because you needed less to reach 40%?

 

3.  Not true.  It makes many support power sets more valuable than they currently are. If you’re already at 45% those -to-hit debuffs do nothing.  At 40% they help a lot.  At 45% defense those bubbles add a little debuff buffer.  At 40% they still add a debuff buffer but you’re getting hit twice as much so you actually need that buffer twice as much.   Since a buffer is all they currently provide, that’s twice the value at 40% defense.

 

4.  Your point here clearly counters your own points 2 and 3.  

 

A great case  study would be to see how many topics like this pop up because currently support players feel useless on normal teams outside of incarnate/endgame.  Support players actually like to support, not just bring some form of +damage.  

[Wavicle]

45 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

If I have 75% resist to smashing and I get hit by -20% resist. The remaining resistance is 55%. There is no resistance to the debuff, it took full effect. Unlike DDR which reduces the amount the debuff applied against defense. I am most likely being dense here, but they way it's being explained makes no sense in the context of how DDR works.

 

That's not how it works.

 

If you have 75% resist and you get hit by a -20% debuff, you resist 75% of the debuff. Your new resistance should be 70%.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

 

3.  Not true.  It makes many support power sets more valuable than they currently are. If you’re already at 45% those -to-hit debuffs do nothing.  At 40% they help a lot.  At 45% defense those bubbles add a little debuff buffer.  At 40% they still add a debuff buffer but you’re getting hit twice as much so you actually need that buffer twice as much.   Since a buffer is all they currently provide, that’s twice the value at 40% defense.

 

 

If you're capped at 40 then ALL ally Defense buffs are wasted beyond that.

[Brutal Justice]

8 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Having played all Tanker sets i do believe there is a small inequality between resist and defence sets. That is why Shield is picked by many top end builds, Shield/EM for example as both are OP lol. But i am not exactly sure how to fix it.

I agree with you’re entire post.  I just wanted to highlight this particular section.  

 

I believe the defense sets on tanks do perform higher than the resistance sets but this small inequality is acceptable.  I showed perfect balance between 45% defense and 90% resistance.  Each set will pull ahead or fall behind due to their specific intricacies.  That’s actually a desirable thing.

 

Now let’s all remember that defensive scrappers still maintain their non defensive mitigation just at lower levels than tanks.  It doesn’t just vanish.  

 

Remembering that.  How can 45% be slightly better than 90% and yet people still claim 45% is not grossly overpowered compared to 75%?   

 

I fully agree with your full post @Gobbledegook and am not directing this response towards you.  I am simply using your post, that provides the same information as my posts, just without the call for a nerf, to point out how you get thumbs ups and likes and I get dislikes.  

[MTeague]

Unless they added something such that your SELF buffs and SELF-bonuses could not take you past 40%, but outisde sources could.

Which, 

   a) would probably be vastly more difficult to implement than to write out as a sentance.

   b) would be a first step down a slope that may not be desireable. 

   c) still might not help out Support characters, just make it more popular to have the currently-favoried AT's use Leadership powers. 

 

I can't say I've never called for Nerfs. Because I have. But over time, I've grown to understand the futility of trying to make someone else enjoy playstyles that they just don't enjoy. My main is a Mind Controller.  There are very few situations where he feels even remotely useful to a team except by flashbacking to midgame, and not always there. I'm not talking necessary, No one should ever be necessary. I'm talking useful.  So I solo, a lot.  I sometimes wish it weren't the way the game was.  But the only way I see to change that would be to do away with or cap set bonuses, and frankly, most people don't want to play under those conditions.  Not even me, on some characters.  I like being able to patch the Psi hole on my Invulnerability Tanker, for instance. 

 

So I keep an ear the ground re:  the optinal difficulty settings being added, and teams that are interested in using them.

Do I think those will ever go mainstream? No.  Do I care? No.  As long as they're being added and available for those who want them, I'm good.

[Brutal Justice]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

If you're capped at 40 then ALL ally Defense buffs are wasted beyond that.

If it’s not wasted on the 75% resistance hard cap, why would it be wasted on the defense hard cap?   It doesn’t delete the information from your combat attributes.  It just doesn’t increase your mitigation beyond that cap.  

[Gobbledigook]

So i guess if an invulnerability Scrapper had say 85% s/l resist in a build he would be 10% over his cap at 75%, but that would actually help them if they were debuffed? as they would have that extra to lose. The same would apply to defence.

 

So extra wouldn't be a waste?

[KaizenSoze]

28 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

That's not how it works.

 

If you have 75% resist and you get hit by a -20% debuff, you resist 75% of the debuff. Your new resistance should be 70%.

Yep, I was being extremely dense. I tested this on ASF. And it worked exactly as you described.

 

I even tested this with my Night Widow to make sure it's not AT specific.

 

Thank you. I learned something today.

[Wavicle]

26 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

So i guess if an invulnerability Scrapper had say 85% s/l resist in a build he would be 10% over his cap at 75%, but that would actually help them if they were debuffed? as they would have that extra to lose. The same would apply to defence.

 

So extra wouldn't be a waste?

no, the same does not apply to Defense. that’s why ddr was added.

 

In fact I don't know that's how it works on res either.  Resistance beyond the cap continues to help because it adds to Resistance Debuff Resistance. I don't know that either Res or Def beyond the cap provides a "cushion". Is that how it works? Someone here knows. @macskull @Bionic_Flea?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Wavicle

[Parabola]

Remember though that resistance only resists resistible resistance debuffs. If the debuff is flagged as not resistible then you are going to suffer the full effect of it regardless of how much resistance you have. However, a buffer over the cap will still be useful to give you some leeway in that scenario.

 

As previously mentioned the whole topic of game balance is very complicated. In many respects I don't think the original designers did themselves many favours in this regard. Much of the game that we know and mostly love seems to have been something of a happy accident of dodgy design decisions working out well in the end somehow. I imagine a truly balanced version of the game would have diminishing returns built into just about every mechanism and therefore operate within a much tighter range of parameters. But making those sorts of changes seems unlikely at this stage!

[Wavicle]

To me the existence of unresistable resistance debuffs is no more problematic for resistance sets than is the existence of auto hit damage and debuffs for defense sets.

 

 The idea that def and res sets are wildly out of balance simply does not reflect my game experience.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Wavicle

[Gobbledigook]

29 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

no, the same does not apply to Defense. that’s why ddr was added.

 

In fact I don't know that's how it works on res either.  Resistance beyond the cap continues to help because it adds to Resistance Debuff Resistance. I don't know that either Res or Def beyond the cap provides a "cushion". Is that how it works? Someone here knows. @macskull @Bionic_Flea?

I am pretty sure that if you have 50% defence in a build as there is no defence cap, well it is extremely high, then you have an extra 5% you can lose from debuffs before you start noticing it. DDR will help mitigate the debuffs depending on how much you have.

 

45% is just the sweet spot but it is not the cap. 59% sweet spot for incarnate. Roughly.

 

I have a EM/inv Stalker with 59% defence and 75% s/l resists and capped health. Pretty tough other than a lower max health than Tankers. 50% DDR that can be boosted to over 70% with the ageless Radial.

 

A resist set with 75% resists and defences that are easily stripped with no extra max health could not compete really.

 

I see where Brutal Justice is coming from but i see there will be much resistance lol. I am staying out of it haha

Edited January 25, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Wavicle]

Ah, yes, of course. With Defense that makes sense. Not with Resistance, since there is a hard cap we can reach. But hell, this game is full of weird stuff that makes no damn sense, so maybe there's a cushion for Res too. I have no idea.

[golstat2003]

18 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Ah, yes, of course. With Defense that makes sense. Not with Resistance, since there is a hard cap we can reach. But hell, this game is full of weird stuff that makes no damn sense, so maybe there's a cushion for Res too. I have no idea.

 

But Wavicle, that's the City of Heroes motto. 😄 

 

"A game full of weird stuff that makes no damn sense." 😛 

 

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

But Wavicle, that's the City of Heroes motto. 😄 

 

"A game full of weird stuff that makes no damn sense." 😛 

 

It’s not Free To Play, it’s FREEEEEEMMM to play!

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

45% is just the sweet spot but it is not the cap. 59% sweet spot for incarnate. Roughly.

 

It's a global mitigation nerf to everyone even tanks and brutes. Brutes would get to stay at the 45% defense cap since they share the tank 90% resist cap.

And what's to be the value for all the EATs with their 85% resist cap? 42.5% defense if ratios hold.

 

So now you have a team of incarnates in an incarnate mission, where they have a 14% tohit buff for being incarnate enemies, and no matter what extra defense you throw in from all the powers in the game that buff defense, they all become completely meaningless and all tanks and brutes are being hit at least 14% of the time, EATs 16.5% of the time and everyone else 19% of the time. And that's just for even level incarnate minions, of course.

 

It's a garbage idea.

[Aurora_Girl]

1 hour ago, Brutal Justice said:

If it’s not wasted on the 75% resistance hard cap, why would it be wasted on the defense hard cap?   It doesn’t delete the information from your combat attributes.  It just doesn’t increase your mitigation beyond that cap.  

 

Because defense and DDR are not the same, but resistance and resistance to resistance debuff are. The same. 

[Gobbledigook]

39 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's a global mitigation nerf to everyone even tanks and brutes. Brutes would get to stay at the 45% defense cap since they share the tank 90% resist cap.

And what's to be the value for all the EATs with their 85% resist cap? 42.5% defense if ratios hold.

 

So now you have a team of incarnates in an incarnate mission, where they have a 14% tohit buff for being incarnate enemies, and no matter what extra defense you throw in from all the powers in the game that buff defense, they all become completely meaningless and all tanks and brutes are being hit at least 14% of the time, EATs 16.5% of the time and everyone else 19% of the time. And that's just for even level incarnate minions, of course.

 

It's a garbage idea.

Yea i am not for it or against it but i can see where the idea is coming from. 

 

I wouldn't worry it will never happen.

 

If anything i would buff some of the resist sets a little with some +max health or something and maybe give a little more resistance to resist debuffs to resist sets, seems iyt will help scrappers/stalker some. Also adjust some DDR values especially to Shield. Willpower could use a bit of Shields DDR imo lol.

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with Scrappers etc being a bit Tanky as Tankers are a bit damagey since their buffs 😛

 

Future content will test us much more hopefully. Small tweaks are good big changes not good. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

I wouldn't worry it will never happen.

 

Of course it won't. But that won't stop us from seeing it in every thread even remotely related to the topic for the next whatever years as we've seen it for the last 2-3 years, will it?

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Sorry this makes no sense to me. Give me a specific power example.

 

By what percentage does said power resist reduction?

 

If I have 75% resist to smashing and I get hit by -20% resist. The remaining resistance is 55%. There is no resistance to the debuff, it took full effect. Unlike DDR which reduces the amount the debuff applied against defense. I am most likely being dense here, but they way it's being explained makes no sense in the context of how DDR works.

It's more like if ddr went to 100% ... nothing would even scratch your defense not even the tiny 5% debuff maxed ddr let's in.  If your energy damage resistance is say 100% or more via buffs and Melt Armor hit you for a -30% debuff ... 100% of that is resisted so Melt Armor would reduce your nrg damage resistance by 0.00% because its all resisted.  And if you're a Scrapper your previous 75% capped energy resistance would remain at 75%.  And that would be true even if 5 bosses in Relentless each hit you with a -30% resistance debuff within the same second.  At least that's how I understood it in a recent thread.

 

Edit:  And @Parabolamakes an excellent point it has to be a resistable resistance debuff.  Several of the attacks, in particular the Goldbrickers self destruct are unresistable.  So no dropping a Thermal's shield on a capped Tanker and expecting to survive the 5 digit damage incoming.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Doomguide2005