Kin vs Rad for farming support

[Garrickwest]

Hi everyone,

Maybe i'm way off but i'm always seeing farming messages asking for a Kin.

For supporting a farmer what is difference between Kin and Rad?

To me reading the powers it seems that 

Kin has siphon power and speed boost. One boosts damage, other boosts health & endurance and recharge.

 

Rad has Accelerate Metabolism which kinda boost damage, health, end, and recharge i think.  As well as debuffers that would help drop enemies quicker.

 

What is the preference for Kin over Rad for support or am I missing something from the Kin powerset?

 

[kwsapphire]

In my experience, nobody but farmers should be in the fray during a farm. Anyone else is likely to get killed. That said, here are the (unbuffed) numbers for Kin vs Rad:

 

Siphon Power = +50% Damage 

Speed Boost = +50% Recovery & Recharge

Transfusion = up to +150% Damage?

 

Accelerate Metabolsim = +25% Damage, +30% Recovery

 

Given that

A) Increased damage is likely the primary bonus they're looking for, and

B) all of Kin's buff percentages are higher than Rad

it seems clear that Kin is the better buffer for a farmer.

 

But again, I don't advise a Kin or a Rad get close enough to combat to use their buffs in a fire farm. 😉

[oedipus_tex]

Kinetics likely makes for better farming support in most situations, and also in most situations also dishes more actual damage. That said, farms are by definition tailored to the player, so if the farm is specifically set up to make Radiation effective--for example, by including a good place to fire and forget the -Resist debuff toggle--it could potentially be useful. Even so, Radiation is usually considered a midling -Resist set, since it can't stack it. Cold, Poison, or Storm are probably better suited to that kind of support.

 

TLDR most farmers probably don't truly need either Radiation or Kinetics or any other buff set to perform, but won't really be hurt by it either. 

 

It's also possible the people asking for Kinetics are remembering the pre-AE game, where Kinetics was a premier farming build. It's still pretty good. Radiation was never known as a farming build, altho I did used to run an Ice/Radiation toon during the "conference room fire farm" era and he did marginally okay.

Edited January 25, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Psyonico]

1 kin can get you to the damage cap thanks to Fulcrum Shift (well, maybe not brutes, because their damage cap is so high)

 

1 rad provides AM which is not permanent with just basic slotting and does not get you anywhere the damage cap.

[ninja surprise]

5 hours ago, kwsapphire said:

Siphon Power = +50% Damage 

Speed Boost = +50% Recovery & Recharge

Transfusion = up to +150% Damage?

 

Transfusion is the heal; doesn't do anything for damage.

Fulcrum Shift is what you want, it can do a +400% damage buff if the /Kin is close to the 10 targets and teammates.  That's a fantastic bonus.

  

5 hours ago, Garrickwest said:

Kin has siphon power and speed boost. One boosts damage, other boosts health & endurance and recharge.

 

Speed Boost buffs endurance recovery and 50% recharge buff, but not health. It does give some damage resistance though.

 

Side note: Siphon Speed, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift also debuff enemies. They get slowed and lower damage output, which may not be a huge difference on a farm but is still helpful.

Edited January 26, 2022 by ninja surprise

[kwsapphire]

5 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Transfusion is the heal; doesn't do anything for damage.

Fulcrum Shift is what you want, it can do a +400% damage buff if the /Kin is close to the 10 targets and teammates.  That's a fantastic bonus.

  

 

Doh, that's what I meant. Not sure how I swapped the two. 🙂

[Hjarki]

Neither is particularly useful.

 

Most of my farming is done semi-afk - I'm just letting autofire powers and auras do all the damage. Actively playing the character would speed up the process in real time at the expense of massively increasing the time commitment I'm personally making.

 

However, when I do actively farm, I have macros to endlessly convert/chew reds. This means I'm running at/near the +damage cap anyway. Moreover, it means that every character who isn't actively contributing is cutting into my Inspiration drops.

[coggy]

having played both pre IO days  kin was the winner from a speed point of view, pretty much steam rolled the mobs. / rad  for me was on a frad so hot feet and chokin cloud for dps/lockdown was a less active build but slower , if your having to debuff mobs to keep going i would have said the diffuculty was to high if your aiming for most reward vs time.

then again im old school pre ED player still getting my head around IO `s 😄

Edited January 26, 2022 by coggy

[Doomguide2005]

What @Hjarkisaid is what's most efficient, i.e chowing down reds to keep you at the cap.  Kinetics would the biggest damage boost among the support sets as assuming an actual farming build it is likely self sufficient for defense, resistance and endurance.  Damage is the only thing those builds can't self provide.  But not every farmer is necessarily optimized however, even if just because it's the first on the account, not dedicated solely to farming or a "traditional" i27 Fire Brute build.  In almost all those cases it'll be a Kin because of Fulcrum Shift for the huge damage boost to speed things along ... not Speed Boost, Siphon Power, Transfusion or Transference although all those may be helpful for any build that’s attempting to farm and is not a dedicated and optimized farmer.  

     

[Without_Pause]

In short, I don't think I have ever seen a request for a Rad to join a farm. I can't begin to count the times I have seen a Kin mentioned for farming on live or HC. Even now I will see Kins advertising for farms.

[Krazie Ivan]

19 hours ago, Garrickwest said:

Maybe i'm way off but i'm always seeing farming messages asking for a Kin.

likely inexperienced and/or lack a quality build necessitating the added +End/Heals... which might indicate a slower or low-lvl farm, making it easier for a run-of-the-mill/PuG Kin to survive. a high-end farmer would prefer a Corr that adds dmg output itself along with sharing +speed & Fulcrum (not a Controller, due to how Containment negatively affects bunching), but the Kin would need built for farming (cap Res & softcap Def to the dmg type) either way.

my experience has been that a high-end farming brute only duos with a Corr Kin if they want company 😄

plus everything @Hjarki & @Doomguide said.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Krazie Ivan

[Ukase]

My opinion is that any player that is looking for help from a specific AT /powerset for a "farm" is a player whose build is insufficient for the task at hand.

Some might say they are in a rush and want to get it done (get what done? you're farming. You go over and over again, or it's not really farming, is it?) or they just want some company. 

A few things you may not know - and I have experienced this myself when trying to help my alt account's farmer before I could afford the IOs that let me do it afk. With a kin, when you use Fulcrum Shift or Siphon Speed, Siphon Power (damage), while you can target through the brute/tank/teammate, you still get the overflow of aggro. And you're just not going to survive it at +4, unless you have a large number of inspirations at the ready and the teammate is able to get some of that aggro off you before the insps you took fade away. 

But...for that kind of risk & reward, given that inf & xp are nerfed in AE, you might as well just be on a team in normal content - unless you're helping out a friend or something. 
Any farmer can tell you - sharing a map is not advantageous. You get less inf, less xp, fewer drops. Less of everything. 
Anecdotally, when my PL'd alts are in my fire map - they get purples!! at level 4! or even 2! And the farmer gets the Stink of the Manticore. It ain't right. Now, intellectually, I'm aware that the rng will do what it does - but the idea that an idle character gets anything  (even xp) is still a bit sketchy. But, I'll take advantage of it. 
While the farmer does get less of everything, the totality of what the alt gets and what the farmer gets is more than what the farmer would get by itself. So, for dual boxing, it makes sense. But to bring in an outsider, unless it's a friend who's going to return the favor, or you're just trying to be helpful, there's no compelling reason to do it. 

If you're a farmer and you want some help with endurance...consider a lore pet that's untouchable that can buff you. It's only every 15 minutes when you can respawn them, but maybe that's enough. Or you can use the p2w recovery serum, or ageless. Or both. 

 

[LynxNordique]

If one really wants a controller for farming and choose between /Rad of /Kin, why not make a Farming troller? Both secondaries are great for a farming Troller. Kinetics. while being a clicking hell, boost damages like crazy. Radiation, with 2 additionnal AoE holds, set up containment easily and fast. Both provide endurance and speed to the toon.

 

I know a farming troller is not nearly as fast as a brute, but it's more fun to run the farm yourself than being a buff bot. And a decent farming controller is still plenty fast. My farming controller can level a toon from 2 to 40 in 4 hours with Double XP. She is not even fire and she is not even farming fire or S/L mobs... You just have to choose the right farm and the right strategy and build.

 

But if one wants to be a brute's buff bot, Kin is the only logical choice, as it can provide Speed Boost, some damage resistance with Increase density and fulcrum shift. If one is going to use Fulcrum shift, prepare to die A LOT, because of the aggro cap of the melee toons. Kinetic buff bot will always have way too much attention after casting Fulcrum shift. The only thing a rad can bring to a farming brute is AM. Enervating field is useless in that case as the mobs will be dead before the casting time is over...

Edited January 26, 2022 by LynxNordique

[kwsapphire]

24 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Any farmer can tell you - sharing a map is not advantageous. You get less inf, less xp, fewer drops. Less of everything. 

 

 

I've not personally done the math, but I've been told that two people on the map (assuming you're sharing rewards) leads to more overall rewards. That is, if you have two accounts, or you and a friend share all resources, it's better to have 2 people on the map. The benefits diminish at 3 people and up though. Irrelevant if you're PLing a stranger obviously, but good to know if you're in a position to take advantage of it. (Allow me to reiterate that I'm just repeating what I've been told & don't have any way to support this idea. :P)

 

My husband and I have 3 accounts between us. The third account is just a farmer, and we sometimes have all three of us on the map (as farmers). Not so much for the extra drops, but for help blocking intersections or clearing the map. 🙂

[Without_Pause]

Adding to what @Ukase said, I remember being on a farm and the guy running it mentioned how fragile a Fire/kin was on one he had previously run since the Controller was pulling so much aggro. You'll want a number of purples and Winter IOs to cap fire Res and Def. The rest is spot on as well. My sitters are the ones far more often getting the purples. The game unfortunately gives better rewards to the non-leaders. I don't farm for other people. I prefer farming for my own characters, hence two accounts. 

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, kwsapphire said:

 

I've not personally done the math, but I've been told that two people on the map (assuming you're sharing rewards) leads to more overall rewards. That is, if you have two accounts, or you and a friend share all resources, it's better to have 2 people on the map. The benefits diminish at 3 people and up though. Irrelevant if you're PLing a stranger obviously, but good to know if you're in a position to take advantage of it. (Allow me to reiterate that I'm just repeating what I've been told & don't have any way to support this idea. :P)

 

My husband and I have 3 accounts between us. The third account is just a farmer, and we sometimes have all three of us on the map (as farmers). Not so much for the extra drops, but for help blocking intersections or clearing the map. 🙂

I am pretty sure I mentioned that for dual boxing, it makes sense (and inf) to do so. So, you and your husband are on the right path assuming what's his is yours and vice-versa. 
 

[Makobola]

Kin for capping damage with two stacks of FS; speed boost for more recharge, and +heal +endurance when needed.

 

However, a properly build farmer doesn't need endurance because of ageless, and has enough built in recharge for optimal attack chains.

 

It just becomes capping damage, which can be done with inspiration macroing, but a kin makes it easier and less micro'ing while playing. 

 

To be honest; the best farming support is Literally another DPS e.g. another Fire/Rad brute, Fire/ blaster

[Hyperstrike]

Bah, just bring 7 fire/rads with you.
Roomba Of Death.

[Doomguide2005]

38 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Bah, just bring 7 fire/rads with you.
Roomba Of Death.

LOL

And true team farming.  Just make them all AVs.

[Hyperstrike]

16 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

LOL

And true team farming.  Just make them all AVs.

AV: I shall mash you all int*COUGH*COUGH*AUUUGH!*SIZZLE*

FR1: Look out for the....AV
FR5: What AV?

[Greldek]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:50 AM, Ukase said:

My opinion is that any player that is looking for help from a specific AT /powerset for a "farm" is a player whose build is insufficient for the task at hand.

Some might say they are in a rush and want to get it done (get what done? you're farming. You go over and over again, or it's not really farming, is it?) or they just want some company. 

A few things you may not know - and I have experienced this myself when trying to help my alt account's farmer before I could afford the IOs that let me do it afk. With a kin, when you use Fulcrum Shift or Siphon Speed, Siphon Power (damage), while you can target through the brute/tank/teammate, you still get the overflow of aggro. And you're just not going to survive it at +4, unless you have a large number of inspirations at the ready and the teammate is able to get some of that aggro off you before the insps you took fade away. 

But...for that kind of risk & reward, given that inf & xp are nerfed in AE, you might as well just be on a team in normal content - unless you're helping out a friend or something. 
Any farmer can tell you - sharing a map is not advantageous. You get less inf, less xp, fewer drops. Less of everything. 
Anecdotally, when my PL'd alts are in my fire map - they get purples!! at level 4! or even 2! And the farmer gets the Stink of the Manticore. It ain't right. Now, intellectually, I'm aware that the rng will do what it does - but the idea that an idle character gets anything  (even xp) is still a bit sketchy. But, I'll take advantage of it. 
While the farmer does get less of everything, the totality of what the alt gets and what the farmer gets is more than what the farmer would get by itself. So, for dual boxing, it makes sense. But to bring in an outsider, unless it's a friend who's going to return the favor, or you're just trying to be helpful, there's no compelling reason to do it. 

If you're a farmer and you want some help with endurance...consider a lore pet that's untouchable that can buff you. It's only every 15 minutes when you can respawn them, but maybe that's enough. Or you can use the p2w recovery serum, or ageless. Or both. 

 

Having a kin just makes cleaning the maps faster. Not as important if you're just grinding recipe drops and inf passively. But if you're trying to plvl a new character to 50asap it makes a difference when you're going to be slamming aes one after the other. Often still with incarnates on cooldown while clearing some maps.

[macskull]

This topic is old, but I don't know why anyone's looking for a Kin or a Rad when the best "farm support" character is a second Brute.