Tip: order of procs is 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

[Sovera]

Tested using Burn. Put it in auto and checked the procs. They always followed the same order of last as the first to go off.

 

This is just a small detail unimportant but for one case: -res procs. They boost a proc's damage so -res ought to always be the last to be slotted so it is the first to go off and boost the damage of procs. This is tested and works as advertized though it's not a huge boost (57 damage from an Obliteration proc turned into 68), but why squander?

 

Edit: read the thread. I picked one of the very few powers where this happens.

 

 

It may, possibly, boost the damage of the attack itself though testing on this was all over the damage with Burn's initial initial fluctuating between 110 to 125 damage. We don't have RNG in the damage so it should always hit for the same numbers, but the 125 didn't even have -res going off.

 

Edit: god, I'm dumb as bricks. Of course the damage changed, I'M ON A BRUTE WITH FURY!

 

Dunno, but regardless important procs last seems to be the way to go.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Sovera

[Onlyasandwich]

Great little optimization, @Sovera! I'd love to see how this works in other types of powers, but still worth noting even for burn.

[arcane]

Wow, so the order does matter. I think my Radiation Therapy slotting tends to put Fury of the Gladiator in slot 1, so I guess I’m gimping myself?

[Sovera]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

Wow, so the order does matter. I think my Radiation Therapy slotting tends to put Fury of the Gladiator in slot 1, so I guess I’m gimping myself?

 

And IG too, lets not forget that one.

[arcane]

50 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

And IG too, lets not forget that one.

Right, though I think my neurosis will have caused less harm on that one. I’m very obsessive about orderings following some sort of convention. Often this might be: first by IO type (damage first then others) then by level, then by HCwiki ordering to resolve ties. 
 

IOW: this reliably puts Achilles’ Heel 6th on IG and reliably puts Fury of the Gladiator 1st on RT (because I have Armageddon in GZ). 
 

I have issues.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

They boost a proc's damage so -res ought to always be the last to be slotted so it is the first to go off and boost the damage of procs.

 

Freaky. I always do this but only because I like my power screen pretty. Had no idea procs would work this way but it makes sense.

[Linea]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I always do this but only because I like my power screen pretty. Had no idea procs would work this way but it makes sense.

Me Too ... but now I'm gonna have to double check. 😈

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

They boost a proc's damage so -res ought to always be the last to be slotted so it is the first to go off and boost the damage of procs.

 

Are you sure?  They all fire on the same clock tick.  I didn't notice any measurable difference in moving the -Res piece to the far right playing with this a while back.  Combat log lists them from right to left, as advertised, but procs in Savage Leap seemingly did expected damage regardless of where the -Res piece was placed.  In fairness when I first noticed this I was testing Double-Hit (because it is weird with Leap, but it is where I noticed the firing order, testing had nothing to do with other procs or -res, per se) so my memory is pretty anecdotal in this instance.  DoTs will benefit from a -Res piece in the power that fires the DoT, but powers like Mass Levitate, even with it's delay, don't seem to benefit from it firing in the power itself - though I did not really put that to a proper test on that toon either, soooo.......

 

..... it would be super-sweet if I was wrong about this, even if it is just a nuance.

 

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Freaky. I always do this but only because I like my power screen pretty.

 

Ditto.

 

20 minutes ago, Linea said:

Me Too ... but now I'm gonna have to double check. 😈

 

Looking forward to more testing on this.  I might fiddle with it some over the weekend, as I may have literally mis-spoke on this same thing in another thread. 😄

Edited January 28, 2022 by InvaderStych

[Shocktacular]

Wow, this is really good to know!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a bit of reslotting to do...
Also, I assume that if one of the slots is not a proc, the order skips to the next proc?  I sometimes have to put an end reduction in for end management.

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Are you sure?  They all fire on the same clock tick.  I didn't notice any measurable difference in moving the -Res piece to the far right playing with this a while back.  Combat log lists them from right to left, as advertised, but procs in Savage Leap did expected damage regardless of where the -Res piece was placed.  In fairness when I first noticed this I was testing Double-Hit so my memory is pretty anecdotal in this instance.  DoTs will benefit from a -Res piece in the power that fires the DoT, but powers like Mass Levitate, even with it's delay, don't seem to benefit from it firing in the power itself.

 

It would be super-sweet if I was wrong about this, even if it is just a nuance.

 

I am sure of nothing but taxes. Like it the IG test I urge people to give testing a try for more data. The only thing I am (semi) sure of is the order of procs. It all three went off then it was 6, 5, 4. If only two went off they still respected the order, be it 6, 4, or 5, 4.

[Krazie Ivan]

great observation, Sov, & thx for pointing it out 
:)

[brasilgringo]

🤷‍♂️

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/33953-dual-pistols-martial-build-help/?do=findComment&comment=438103

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by brasilgringo

[macskull]

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Are you sure?  They all fire on the same clock tick.

This is the correct answer and in pretty much any non-DoT power a -res proc will not affect the power or other procs regardless of where they're slotted. Burn is a special case because that power is, let's just say... weird and broken.

[InvaderStych]

14 hours ago, macskull said:

Burn is a special case because that power is, let's just say... weird and broken.

 

I suspected Burn might be yet another "special case" power:  much like IG's 5s ticks instead of 10, Savage Leap's "two-powers" architecture, etc etc.  I did find an old screen snip from previously mentioned (tangentially related) testing that does suggest that @Sovera has found another quirk in Burn that *might* exist in some other powers, but my breadth of powers knowledge is not that great.  Interestingly because this is from Savage Leap, there may be another quirk here I did not expect.

 

This is from a Savage/WP brute against Carnies, probably +1?  Unfortunately this is from before I turned on timestamps; there might be more screen-caps and a combat log in @Bopper's "What The Hell Is Double-Hit" thread.  I wasn't going to post this, but rather go get a fresh one with timestamps against a pylon, but it looks like a decent quick look at this.

 

Savage Leap -> Attendant 2 (last listed) is the "teleport target" Fencer and Attendant 1 were "AoE only" targets.

 

 

Slotting here was <not a proc>,Zinger, Arma, Erad, -Res, Oblit.  This was probably the first time I noticed the consistency in order in logs.  2 of 3 hit with -Res.  Proc order and proc damage is consistent across all three.

 

(The difference in double-hit dmg between the two is explained in the guide thread on Hybrid, and not related to -Res)

 

I never noticed this until this post, but there is a 22.06 point damage difference in the "Savage Leap AoE" damage taken by the 3 mobs, in-line to suggest that in Leap, a -Res piece might affect it's own AoE dmg,  I wouldn't expect this to work on all targets if it is because Leap fires two powers, but there it is staring me in the face.  So the plot has definitely thickened and maybe going back in for a closer look at Leap is warranted after all.

 

I have no idea if there could have been another cause for the dmg difference there, so more samples would help.  I suspect that if this is another "quirk" of Leap, that it would function regardless of slotting order.

 

The one thing I still do with this is slot SCS+50% *last* among the procs in Leap in case fractional seconds are relevant in the duration of the critical hit bonus.  That's about the only thing I can thing of, outside Burn or similarly unique powers, where gaming slot position might have a benefit (firing procs with a duration), but at that point we're talking such small amounts of time it's quite academic. 😛

 

Edit:  How long is a server tick?  And can log time-stamps show a finer resolution than nearest second?

Edited January 29, 2022 by InvaderStych

[arcane]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

I suspected Burn might be yet another "special case" power:  much like IG's 5s ticks instead of 10, Savage Leap's "two-powers" architecture, etc etc.  I did find an old screen snip from previously mentioned (tangentially related) testing that does suggest that @Sovera has found another quirk in Burn that *might* exist in some other powers, but my breadth of powers knowledge is not that great.  Interestingly because this is from Savage Leap, there may be another quirk here I did not expect.

 

This is from a Savage/WP brute against Carnies, probably +1?  Unfortunately this is from before I turned on timestamps; there might be more screen-caps and a combat log in @Bopper's "What The Hell Is Double-Hit" thread.  I wasn't going to post this, but rather go get a fresh one with timestamps against a pylon, but it looks like a decent quick look at this.

 

Savage Leap -> Attendant 2 (last listed) is the "teleport target" Fencer and Attendant 1 were "AoE only" targets.

 

 

Slotting here was <not a proc>,Zinger, Arma, Erad, -Res, Oblit.  This was probably the first time I noticed the consistency in order in logs.  2 of 3 hit with -Res.  Proc order and proc damage is consistent across all three.

 

(The difference in double-hit dmg between the two is explained in the guide thread on Hybrid, and not related to -Res)

 

I never noticed this until this post, but there is a 22.06 point damage difference in the "Savage Leap AoE" damage taken by the 3 mobs, in-line to suggest that in Leap, a -Res piece might affect it's own AoE dmg,  I wouldn't expect this to work on all targets if it is because Leap fires two powers, but there it is staring me in the face.  So the plot has definitely thickened and maybe going back in for a closer look at Leap is warranted after all.

 

I have no idea if there could have been another cause for the dmg difference there, so more samples would help.  I suspect that if this is another "quirk" of Leap, that it would function regardless of slotting order.

 

The one thing I still do with this is slot SCS+50% *last* among the procs in Leap in case fractional seconds are relevant in the duration of the critical hit bonus.  That's about the only thing I can thing of, outside Burn or similarly unique powers, where gaming slot position might have a benefit (firing procs with a duration), but at that point we're talking such small amounts of time it's quite academic. 😛

 

Edit:  How long is a server tick?  And can log time-stamps show a finer resolution than nearest second?

Well we don’t know for sure about Savage Leap to my knowledge but both Burn and IG are literally broken and not working as intended. “Special case” is a nice way to put “Their days are numbered”.

Edited January 29, 2022 by arcane

[Sovera]

Heh, we're going on three years now, plus all the years while it was live. Not losing sleep over it.

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

“Special case” is a nice way to put “Their days are numbered”.

 

Fair point.  Leap's mechanics are probably slated for a look-see at some point. I cannot speak to the intent of the devs, but I doubt it's a big priority. 🙂

 

It's quirks mostly affect things like Hybrid double hit (more damage on the tele target than on AoE targets) or Brimstone (No damage on AoE targets, damage on tele target) and weird stuff like that.  Leap is kinda mechanically flawed, but not OP "Broken" like Burn/IG.  That Leap procs well is a function of PPM and it's coincidentally having sweet-spot numbers for keeping the rate high not that it is a quirky tele-nuke with 2 separate powers. Of course we all know that Change Is Coming to damage procs at some point. Though I do hope that "effect" procs aren't rendered useless via collateral damage. 😨

 

Burn/IG are pretty wildly different.  I can't speak to Burn, but IG's tic rate makes it crazy effective, and it's pseudo-pet status means it works inside Geode among other probably weird crap I have no idea about. 🤣

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by InvaderStych

[StrikerFox]

I just tested it on my StJ Stalker, only using Shin Breaker. Doesn't seem to work. Procs are usually ordered Achilles', Lady Grey and Mako's on my build. Did a few attacks, Achilles' debuff was popping up after the proc damage of 57.39.

 

 

Mixed up the proc slotting to Mako's, Lady Grey and Achilles'. It showed Achilles' debuff before the proc activations but the proc damage is still the same. 57.39. 

 

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

I just tested it on my StJ Stalker, only using Shin Breaker. Doesn't seem to work. Procs are usually ordered Achilles', Lady Grey and Mako's on my build. Did a few attacks, Achilles' debuff was popping up after the proc damage of 57.39.

 

 

Mixed up the proc slotting to Mako's, Lady Grey and Achilles'. It showed Achilles' debuff before the proc activations but the proc damage is still the same. 57.39. 

 

 

Darnnit, I picked the one power to test which behaves weirdly then. Well, this is why I urged more testing. Thanks for rising to the occasion, Striker.

[InvaderStych]

Okay, so I am fairly confident that any delayed damage power, even if the delay is measured in fractional seconds - Savage Leap AoE Power, for example - will have its damage boosted from a successful application of -Res.

 

It was more difficult to tell with Leap because I was on a Brute testing on Monkeys, so variable fury made the numbers harder to evaluate.

 

Mass Levitate, however, is on a long enough delay to test it out.

 

Also confirmed that this works regardless of slotted position; tested with the -Res piece in slot 6 and slot 1 (keeping the numbering in the OP, 1 is Left justified, 6 is right justified).

 

Two swings with Mass Lev:  First no proc, second it fires.

 

 

No screen-caps, but I tested Radiation Therapy a little with this as well.  Up front damage not increased, DoT damage is.  Essentially, when it comes to damage from the power itself - if it happens in log *after* the firing of the proc (delayed like ML/SL or DoT applied after initial dmg) the benefit is there, up front damage that logs before procs isn't going to be.

 

How this affects the Burn thing, no clue. 😛

 

Nothing I've tested boosted proc damage within the same power as a -res piece regardless of position, so that's just Burn so far it seems.

Edited January 30, 2022 by InvaderStych

[DreadShinobi]

This is an awesome thread, thanks for the testing @Sovera

[DreadShinobi]

@InvaderStych I don't reccomend testing on a brute because of fury as you noted. For -res application testing you can get around this by damage capping yourself with a bunch of red insps if a brute is who you have to test with.

[InvaderStych]

21 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

I don't reccomend testing on a brute because of fury as you noted.

 

Yup.  The brute just happened to already be on beta.  Mass Lev and Rad Therapy mentioned above were both on scrappers.

 

Its a good tip though - the fewer variables the better and all.  Like, "Take the Gaussian's out of Invincibility on the svg/invul scrapper before damage testing" 😄

 

... but I digress.  This is probably all just confirming the obvious, and likely not super useful for slotting, although maybe it is for some goals? Savage Leap, oh you funny, funny beast.  I suspect that because damage is adjusted on distance traveled that imposes enough of a delay for it to get a boost from its own -Res as shown with Mass Lev above:

 

Note that in the two samples below, the first shows damage on the same second as the -Res proc while on the second it is logged on the following second.

 

 

 

 

 

I think we can confirm with a high degree of certainty that delayed damage powers will most likely benefit from their own -Res proc.

 

In this shot I've placed a %dmg piece on either side of the -Res piece: slots 2, 3, and 4 just for another quick test to confirm that all procs fire simultaneously:

 

 

Fairly confident that we can eliminate Leap from the list of places where slot order could be gamed to boost proc damage.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by InvaderStych
dead space removed

[brasilgringo]

So the TLDR is always put the -RES proc in the last slot (right side) and that should pick up any benefit to powers that can benefit from their own -RES firing, right?

[InvaderStych]

15 minutes ago, brasilgringo said:

So the TLDR is always put the -RES proc in the last slot (right side) and that should pick up any benefit to powers that can benefit from their own -RES firing, right?

 

In Leap and Mass Lev above slot position didn't seem to matter; it's about damage firing on a delay, or DoTs/etc after the fact.  Probably only works in a handful of powers.

 

In Mass Lev I tested multiple slot positions, in the Leap test this AM it was in slot 2 (second from the left) for the first 2 screenshots, then in slot 3 for the third.  Without finer resolution on the combat log it is difficult to be certain, but the 3rd screen shot and other evidence outside of Burn suggest that procs fire simultaneously.  For example, when Leap is loaded with them I am pretty sure they don't roll over to the next second while listing them all against large groups. This is one of those things that, as evidenced in Burn, could vary in some powers.

 

I'm still putting SCS +50% "last" out of superstition though. 😛 

 

Besides, Right Justified "Procs" with stat enhancing adds to the left just looks better on the screen.  Fight my OCD. 🤣

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by InvaderStych
qualified a bit